NATIONAL LIBRARY, SCOTLAND. (Hansard, 1 March 1926)

§ Mr. McNEILL
This Estimate is not one in connection with which I have to ask the Committee for any money at all. It is put down only for the purpose of maintaining Parliamentary control. What has occurred is already known, at any rate to hon. Members who come from Scotland. For some time past there had been mooted the idea of the Advocates' Library in Edinburgh being taken over as a national institution, but, for reasons of economy, that proposal was not carried out for a considerable time. Last year, after the Estimates for the year had been framed, Sir Alexander Grant, as many hon. Members know, came forward with a very munificent gift of £100,000 for the endowment of this Library, if the Government would take it over and manage it as a national concern. That was an offer which, of course, the Government could not, and would not, refuse, and, making grateful acknowledgment to the munificent donor, an Act was passed last Session to carry out that object. The appointed day, under that Act, was the 26th October. From that date up to the present time that Library has been a national library for Scotland, and, of course, the costs of it are Government costs. For example, the salaries, as hon. Members will find set out on the back of the Estimate, for that period, are put down, because, from the appointed day, those who were employed in the management and care of the Library became civil servants, and, consequently, now look to the State for their remuneration. But, as I have said, there is no actual money to pass, because the endowment fund to which I have referred more than covers the cost for the present year. It is only to enable the House of Commons to exercise control and make the necessary appropriations that it has been necessary to put this Estimate down at all.

§ Mr. WILLIAM GRAHAM
I rise only for the purpose of expressing appreciation from this side of the Committee of 1086 the arrangement which the Financial Secretary has just described. I think there will be no irregularity on the part of two of the trustees, namely, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and myself, in making reference to the matter at this time. This development has been rendered possible by the handsome gift made by Sir Alexander Grant some time ago, which has enabled us to form, in connection with this library in Scotland, an endowment fund out of which, as I understand it, the expense of maintaining the library will be found in future years. The only point, which emerges on this Estimate, is that provision is made, in the Paper before the Committee, for covering the outgoings from the 26th October last until the end of the present financial year, and the Financial Secretary takes, as an appropriation against that, practically the same sum, which is forthcoming from the Endowment Trust. The question I would like to ask is this: Assuming, as I think we must assume in this case, that all the expenditure will be fully met out of the Endowment Trust in years to come will any statement be made to the House of Commons at all such as will enable us from time to time to review the proceedings here? I do not make that suggestion because anyone in the House of Commons desires to review the proceedings of the trustees, but only in order to make it perfectly plain that the House of Commons will have some opportunity of being assured that this Advocates' Library, or, as it now is, the National Library of Scotland, marches on to become a definitely public institution, and thus achieves our ideal of completing the scheme of the educational system of our country. I have no doubt that either the Financial Secretary or the Lord Advocate will be able to assure Scottish Members on that point, and I dare say, if such an assurance is forthcoming, there will not be very much Debate on this, one of the happiest Estimates which has been presented.

§ Mr. McNEILL
Perhaps I may say a word with reference to what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) has said. I confess that the point had not occurred to me up to the present as to whether a Vote should be put down year by year or not. I am glad to think the right hon. Gentleman is quite correct in saying that 1087 the actual costs will be covered by the Endowment Fund. I do not want at the present moment to give a pledge, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be satisfied if I say I entirely agree with him in thinking that, in some form or other, the matter ought to be brought before the House, in order that the House may review the management and costs of administration. I could not, however, at the present moment, say exactly in what way that will be done.

§ Mr. MACLEAN
May I put this question to the Secretary of State for Scotland? In former times, before this library was taken over as a National Library for Scotland—as I hope it will be, as distinguished from a purely private library such as it has been hitherto—the maintenance of that library was very largely dependent upon sums of money paid by young advocates, or by those who were in training to become advocates. They had to pay a considerable sum of money, a portion of which, I understand, went to maintain the library under the old arrangement. I would like to ask either the Secretary of State for Scotland or the Lord Advocate whether, now that this library is taken over and paid for out of an enowdment fund, there will be any reduction in the fees that will be chargeable for the training of young advocates in the legal profession in Scotland?

§ Mr. MAXTON
On this Vote I only want to say a word or two. When the Bill was before the House, some of us pressed very strongly for a larger Labour representation on the board of trustees, and the Secretary for Scotland met us to some very limited extent on that matter. In this Estimate I do not see any item which would cover the cost of travelling or other expenses incurred by trustees attending the annual meetings. I hope that the trustees who have been chosen will be active, and not merely decorative, trustees, and that they will take a real interest in the progress and development of the library; and I hope that no member of the board of trustees will be debarred from taking that active part in the work of controlling and directing the policy of the library by lack of the necessary money to enable him to travel and attend the meetings. I would like to know if in this Vote provision is made for the 1088 travelling and other expenses of the members of the board.

§ The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour)
With regard to the question asked by the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean), the question of the fees payable by advocates is not one which concerns the National Library, but is one purely for the Faculty of Advocates.

§ Mr. MACLEAN
Let us be quite clear. When this Library was taken over, and an endowment fund was set up by the gift of Sir Alexander Grant, the cost of its maintenance, which had formerly fallen upon the advocates, and for which those who were in training as advocates had to pay a considerable sum, was entirely removed from them. If the Library is now being maintained out of an endowment fund, and the costs of its maintenance are entirely taken away from the advocates, it is common sense to consider that the sums that were paid by advocates in training will now be reduced by that portion which was formerly taken for the Library. That is the point that I want to be sure about. Otherwise, it means that young lawyers coming from poor families are going to be as much handicapped in the future as they have been in the past, when they had to pay a large sum for the Library.

§ The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. William Watson)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is quite right in saying that this is a matter for the Faculty, and is not a matter that concerns the National Library. It is quite true that, of the entrance fees paid by advocates, and of the annual fees which members of the Faculty pay, a certain amount represented the cost of upkeep of the Library, and the matter is one which I know is being taken into consideration by the Faculty at the present time, but it is not a matter that concerns the present Vote. It is also to be borne in mind that the advocates will still have a Law Library of their own at the Law Courts, which is reserved for them and which still has to be kept up. These, however, are all matters which affect the Faculty alone.

§ Mr. MACLEAN
I take that assurance from the right hon. Gentleman to mean that it is being considered by the Faculty.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN
I see that an assistant librarian is to have a salary of 25s. a week, and I see other salaries of £150 and £225. It seems to me that 25s. a week for a person designated assistant librarian is altogether an inadequate wage and one which I hope the Secretary of State for Scotland is not going to defend. The Financial Secretary states that those persons are now becoming civil servants. That means that they are now in the direct employment of the Government. I should like to hear from him some defence of a wage of 25s. for an assistant librarian. I should also like to know the ages and qualifications of the persons who are to receive wages of that kind. I should also like an assurance that any temporary clerks who may be employed will at least be employed on fairly adequate wages to maintain them in decency and comfort.

§ Sir ROBERT HAMILTON
I should like to ask if the fund will be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General.

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
With regard to the last question, I am afraid I do not know. As regards wages and salaries, these are matters which, no doubt, will be very carefully considered and, no doubt, the terms will be the same as in similar Government offices in Scotland.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN
In fixing wages, will the Government take into consideration what is paid by the Edinburgh Corporation to its librarian and assistant? Will it at least be the same wage as other cities in Scotland pay to their librarians?

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
The attention called to these facts by the hon. Member will no doubt cause the matter to be carefully investigated.

§ Mr. McNEILL
In reference to what I said just now to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham), naturally the question does not arise unless there is a balance of costs to be met. In that case a Vote will be put down and the House will be asked to vote the balance required. Whether that be so or not, the Estimate will be put down to enable the House to express an opinion.

§ Mr. MAXTON
I wonder if the Secretary of State for Scotland could answer my point about the expenses that might be incurred.

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
I am not aware that any question of this has been raised, but no doubt it will be considered.

§ Mr. MAXTON
The last man who is likely to raise such a point is the man who would be most seriously affected. Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the matter is raised, so that a person who wanted to do the work but was debarred because of poverty would not be handicapped in that way?

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
I cannot imagine that there is any likelihood of such a thing occurring.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN
Do I understand there is no likelihood of a workman being appointed to this post?