MONEYLENDERS (EXCISE). (Hansard, 30 June 1926)

Captain BENN
I assume this question, being in the form of a Money Resolution, is exempted business. If it is, I shall formally content myself with objection. If a simple objection is not sufficient to prevent it being taken, I should like to examine the amazing procedure by which the Chief Whip sees fit to arrange business in the House in reference to the Resolution he has just moved. We had a discussion at a quarter to four 1303 as to what business was to be taken. Not a word was said about this Resolution. The Chief Whip, with his amazing knowledge of procedure, will say it was not necessary to draw attention to the fact that it was to be taken because it was possible to slip it through under the Standing Orders without giving notice that he intended to take it, but I think hon. Members who are interested in it are taken by surprise. [Interruption.] Hon. Members below the Gangway on this side know their duty. It has been defined in the classic words, "make a house, keep a house and cheer the Government." They are not concerned with the business that is done. But other Members, who consider it part of their duty to put to the test of reasoned criticism the Measures proposed by the Government, are taken by surprise and have a just cause of complaint against the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury. It is not treating the House fairly to bring in, without any notice, after questions have been asked as to the business to be taken, this business, even though it may be exempted under the Standing Orders at this hour of the night. Of course, hon. Members on the Government side naturally are satisfied to let business be done in this way. It is idle for a single Member to raise his voice except as a protest, but I think there is such a thing as the rights of private Members, and the Member who raises his voice on behalf of private Members' rights is doing a service to the House as a whole, whatever arrangements may be come to by those in charge of the business. I am told there was no arrangement come to. It is the practice of Ministers now not to answer. We have had instances of Ministers sitting mum and treating the House with implied insult. It is possible that when I have said what I have to say, no reply will be vouchsafed. [HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] Those cheers are merely a sign of self-degradation. I seriously suggest that, apart from the merits of this motion, which excites a great deal of public interest, the House is entitled to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury for some explanation of his conduct in attempting to slip this through in the middle of the night without warning hon. Members on this side.

§ Mr. ROBERT YOUNG
I think there is some misunderstanding on the part of the Patronage Secretary to the Treasury in relation to business. If I am not mistaken, the Prime Minister, in reply to a question by the Leader of the Opposition, said he did not intend to keep the House late, and it was understood his only reason for moving the suspension of the Eleven o'clock Rule was to get certain stages of the Bill which has now been disposed of. While it is true this is exempted business, it is understood that nothing further was to be taken.

§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Commander Eyres Monsell)
The question addressed to the Prime Minister was what business we were going to take by virtue of the exemption of the Eleven o'clock Rule. I am most particular never to take business without agreeing with the Official Whips of the Opposition. [Interruption.] I do not pretend to please the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain W. Benn) and should not like to do so. These Reports of Money Resolutions do not require the Eleven o'clock Rule to be suspended. They are exempt altogether, and go through as a rule. On the Committee stage of this Resolution not a word was said. I can assure the right hon. gentleman that this is a perfectly normal way of proceeding, and I am not trying to take advantage of the House.

§ Mr. MACLEAN
I understand that after Eleven o'clock at night, even without the suspension of the Rule having been moved, the Government could still have taken this Motion, but the point is that it is being put forward without having been notified. When a question is asked about business, it is customary to state the business that is to be taken. That has not been done today, consequently the House is taken by surprise. It is true they could have got it any time, but it is customary to do the courteous thing and inform the Opposition what they intend to take.

§ Mr. LANSBURY
I should like to ask the Chief Whip to put this off till to-morrow. I am certain the right hon. Gentleman will not deny that our Chief Whip had no knowledge that this was going through, nor had his assistant, who 1305 ten minutes ago walked out and said there would be no more business to-night. Under the circumstances, and this being a non-contentious measure, I think it might be held off.

§ Captain GARRO-JONES
I have been an observer of the proceedings of the House for a much longer time than I have been a Member, but I have never seen a Bill with so many privileged Clauses marked in it as there are marked in this Bill. There has been of late a growing tendency on the part of the Government to introduce these Bills in another place with headings on them in these words, The words included in brackets and underlined were omitted by the Lords to avoid questions of privilege.

§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Captain FitzRoy)
The hon. and gallant Gentleman understands that we are not discussing the Bill now.

§ Captain GARRO-JONES
Nor am I discussing any Clause of the Bill.

§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Thomas Inskip)
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is not only not discussing the Bill, but he has not even got the right Bill in his hand. The Bill to which the Money Resolution is to apply is a Bill that was introduced in this House.

§ Captain GARRO-JONES
That state-merit by the Solicitor-General illustrates far more strongly than any words of mine the extreme inadvisability of bringing forward a Financial Resolution of this kind, without notice. There are two Money Lenders Bills. Hon. Members have no opportunity of discovering to which of the two Bills this Resolution refers. It is impossible to tell from the Order Paper.

§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
This is the Report stage. The Resolution has already passed through Committee.

§ Captain GARRO-JONES
My remarks apply equally to that [Laughter.] It may be amusing to hon. Members. It is amusing to me to see how they remain dumb for six months in the year. As they are bound to do something, they laugh. The Order Paper notice says: Ways and Means [22nd June]—Report. 1306 These words offer no indication to which Moneylenders Bill they refer. If arrangements are made between the two sides it is essential that there should be mutual consideration. I have seen very little consideration shown by the Government in the earlier Debate this evening. I had several questions to put to the Minister of Labour, and other hon. Members desired to ask questions, but in a most unprecedented way he rose and moved the Closure. When hon. Members have an important question to raise, if it does not concern the Government, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury does not attempt to keep a House. I have seen his supporters beckoning hon. Members to leave the House in order that a House should not be kept. I give notice, most respectfully, that if on any future occasion any hon. Member has a grievance to raise affecting his constituents and he is not given any support —[Interruption.]

§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
rose to put the Question—

§ Mr. WESTWOOD
Before you put the Question, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, might I make an appeal? We have had a fair explanation from the Chief Whip, who always endeavours to be courteous to hon. Members, irrespective of party. We have had a clever Sunday school debating point raised by the Solicitor-General, but we have not had an explanation from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is always courteous. As we have had no courtesy shown to us during the preceding Debate, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will show courtesy now and explain exactly what this Money Resolution means.

§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL
I am afraid the hon. Member will be disappointed in receiving no explanation from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I will try to give him the best explanation of which I am capable. The Resolution, when it was before the Committee a week ago, was disposed of in three minutes. It is necessary in order to enable the Committee upstairs to get on with the Bill at the earliest possible moment. The Moneylenders Bill, which was introduced a fortnight ago, contains a Clause under which moneylenders in future will have to take out an Excise License of £15a year, and 1307 that is the whole of the Money Resolution which the House is asked to pass on Report.
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.