HC Deb 23 July 1926 vol 198 cc1622-39

The Board of Trade shall, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, promote the establishment of co-operative non-profit-making selling agencies, and every amalgamation scheme shall provide for the distribution and sale of coal and coal pro- ducts, wholesale or retail, through the medium of a selling agency promoted by the Board of Trade.—[Mr. W. Adamson.]

Brought up, and read the First time.


I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

In our opinion this proposal is of great importance to the future of the industry. During the discussion of the proposed new Clause for the establishment of municipal selling of coal, the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott) said it had no connection with the Bill. He pointed out that the whole idea of this Measure is to bring more money into the industry so that higher wages can be paid to the miners. That objection cannot be taken to the proposal I am now moving, which provides for the establishment on co-operative lines of agencies for the distribution and the selling of coal and coal products, set up by the Board of Trade. Its object is to secure that the profits shall go into a common pool from week to week from which both profits and wages can be paid. The leakage that takes place in the selling of coal represents a large part of the trouble which the mining industry is facing to-day. It is facing great difficulties, and in my opinion, and also in the opinion of most of my colleagues, it is very foolish for the industry to continue to produce coal and then part company with it at the pithead, leaving the coal factor, the coal merchant, and the coal exporter to make whatever profit is made in the distribution of the coal. There is no doubt that considerable sums have been made in the distribution of coal by these parties. On a previous new Clause we heard a lot of talk about the money made by the coal merchants of London. Some time ago the London Coal Merchants' Association circularised Members of this House, and pointed out that the profits earned by their members did not amount to more than 1s. 7d. per ton, or less than 1d. a bag; and they said, "Surely the citizens of London or anybody else cannot complain of such a small profit as that being made in the transaction." In making that statement they seemed to forget that coal is not sold by the pound, but by the ton, and that a profit of 1s. 7d. per ton represents a large profit. There are many on these benches who have had experience in coal mining, and have produced many thousands of tons of coal at less than 1s. 7d. a ton. We were paid less than 1s. 7d. per ton for producing an article on which the London coal merchants admit they were making a profit of 1s. 7d. per ton in the distribution.

There are a number of distinguished members of the Tory party to whom I look for support. I expect to get the support of the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Sir L. Scott), and that of the right hon. Member for Carmarthen (Sir A. Mond). The latter has already publicly declared himself in favour of the setting up of these non-profit-making agencies. He believes that the setting up of such agencies will lead to more amalgamations and that amalgamations will inevitably produce more of these selling agencies. In an article which he wrote some weeks ago he said that one of the things needed in the industry to-day was greater vision, that we required not only to set up selling agencies, but to have schemes of unification which would reduce the cost of production and keep inside the industry the money made in the industry. Moreover, in this matter we have the example of the German coal industry. In Germany there are at work non-profit-making selling agencies, which have been of benefit to the industry. In this country we have the example provided by the rubber industry, the tin-plate industry, the soda and sulphate of ammonia industry. There is a further example, from the constituency of the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Kidd), of the Scottish shale industry. There the shale companies are amalgamated in one company, and they have set up a non-profit-making selling agency with great benefit to the industry.

There is no doubt in our minds that if this principle were adopted it would be of great benefit to the coal industry of this country. From that source would come the money necessary to keep the wages of the men up to a reasonable standard. The great difficulty in the industry for years past has been that the standard of life provided for the men is too low. All our struggles for the last 20 years have centred round that fact. I noticed that the Minister in charge of the Bill, speaking the other day to a very dis- tinguished deputation from the Churches which was received by the Prime Minister and himself, said that this Bill put into operation every one of the recommendations of the Coal Commission with the exception of nationalisation and the setting up of selling agencies. We do not agree that the Bill does as much as that. In this new Clause there is an opportunity of bringing in one very important omission from the Bill, and I hope that even at this last stage of the Bill the Minister will be prepared to accept the principle of the Clause. There was a similar Clause moved in Committee, and the Minister in charge then promised that before the Report stage he would give careful consideration to the principle involved. I hope that to-day he will say that he is prepared to give effect to the Clause.

2.0 P.M.


I am sure everyone will agree that this is a very important Clause. There is no part of the Commission inquiry which has caused greater trouble than the question of selling agencies. The new Clause provides that The Board of Trade shall….promote the establishment of co-operative non-profit-making selling agencies, and every amalgamaton scheme shall provide for the distribution and sale of coal and coal products, wholesale or retail, through the medium of a selling agency promoted by the Board of Trade. We feel that would relieve the situation very considerably. It might not have the far-reaching effects which we expect, but we believe it would at least remove one of the great obstacles which is in the way of securing confidence between the employers and the workmen. It would remove what has been described by the Commissioners as the cut-throat competition, which is detrimental to the industry as a whole, The Commissioners, dealing with retail distribution, say: The figures as they stand show that while the cost at the depot has not quite doubled, the gross profit has a good deal more than doubled, and that net profits are many times greater. That brings under review the difficulty which we are so anxious to remove, namely, the duplication of sellers and the great profits which are made and retained by a section of the community which ought to go back into the ascertainment figures of the industry. We feel that a proper method of selling would improve the industry in many ways. The reply of the coalowners, on this point, though it does not go quite so far as one would desire, indicates that they agree there is something in it. They say in their reply: The owners agree that any means which are practicable for obtaining the best prices possible for coal in the general interest should be adopted, and they will recommend that the district shall give careful and immediate consideration to the measures which can best be taken for the promotion of this object. The coalowners themselves are to some extent, in agreement with what we are asking for in this proposed new Clause, in that they recognise that there are shortcomings in the present method. It would be much better if we could get the Government to adopt a provision on the lines of this proposal. In our opinion, it would bring about a proper scheme of selling and give us an organised selling price. It would remove much of the unfair competition which has existed up to now, and would meet, to some extent, the views expressed by the Commissioners in their Report. They say: For the rest we are strongly of opinion that the collieries would be well advised to establish co-operative selling associations. The creation in the future of the larger undertakings which we envisage should make this easier. The selling schemes under the new Clause could be carried on under conditions similar to those of the Workmen's Compensation Indemnity Associations in connection with the mining industry. These are conducted on what is known as the cost-price method, and the profits are returned to the coalowners in proportion, I suppose, to the premium they have paid. What we want is not that profits shall be returned to coalowners—this is a non-profit-making scheme — but that any benefit arising shall be returned to the industry generally and incorporated in the ascertainment figures. In that way any such benefit will not accrue merely to the coalowners but will be extended to the whole industry, We believe such a system will give a better return to the industry, and, while we cannot definitely say what will be the saving or the amount of money derived under such a scheme, we are quite satisfied that it would relieve present depression and remove much of the friction which has existed in the past. The Commission's Report also says: The associations are not likely to become so comprehensive as to stop any competition within the Industry and so, to prejudice the interest of the consumer by establishing a monopoly. But the present system of selling appears to carry competition to excess. I do not know that it will be suggested that competition ought to run wild, or ought to be allowed to do things which are not in the interests of the industry with which it is associated. Competition carried to excess brings with it evils which are difficult to remove once they are established. We ask the Board of Trade to set up a scheme in connection with each amalgamation for the distribution and selling of the commodity. Not only does that proposal apply to the internal trade, but also to the export trade. It cannot apply to the export trade in the same degree as to the sale of coal within our own shores, but I believe the present method in both is such as ought not to be encouraged by any section of the community. The Commissioners in their Report say: In the exporting districts the associations are especially needed. Their function would be to maintain prices at a remunerative level. On many occasions during these Debates it has been pointed out that the reorganisation and the new methods of selling adopted by the German coalowners might be copied by their competitors in Great Britain. The Germans have instituted a method of selling by which they can secure the full value out of the commodity after it has been produced. We believe such a method is possible in this country, and that it would lead to better relations, and enhance the profits of the owners as well as the wages of the miners. We ask that the Board of Trade should take this matter up and establish schemes with some element of authority in them. The coalowners and the Commissioners are agreed that something ought to be done, but I do not think anything will be done, unless some scheme of authority or compulsion is laid down by this House. I hope the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will give careful consideration to this question, which is of wide import, and is vital in connection with the present dispute.


I have been trying to discover from the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Mover of this proposed new Clause and the last speaker, who is to benefit by these selling agencies which are to be set up under compulsion by the Board of Trade. If it is suggested that the mineowner is to benefit I, in my innocence, would suggest that it is presumption for us to instruct the mineowner in how he is to increase his profit or discover new profit. Hon. Members opposite will surely agree that the test of the legitimacy of any trading is whether or not it is run on a system which has the interest of the consumer in view. We have heard a great deal as to the disparity between the cost of production of coal and the selling price, but immediately one comes to analyse the position one realises that a great deal of misapprehension arises because many factors have been omitted from consideration by the critic in this matter. I submit that you could not have a better system than you have at present. It is a system which secures the consumer's interest as perhaps no other system could. For in whose hands is this trade at the present time? On the one side you have the co-operative societies, and on the other, the private traders. People talk as though you had only the private traders, but the perfect balance of any commercial system is where the private trader on the one hand is countered by the mutual society or the co-operative organisation on the other, while the co-operative movement in turn is checked by the private trader.

In the co-operative movement you do not have profits, and obviously, if the private trader were bleeding the consumer white, as is suggested, the whole of the coal distribution of this country would be in the hands of the co-operative movement. There are times when the private trader is cultivated and times when the co-operative society can serve. If my wife wants a dress distinctive from all other dresses, or a new hat, she will not go to a co-operative society for it, she goes to the private trader. We hear a good deal of talk on the one hand about the co-operative system being bad and on the other hand of private trading being bad, but my submission is that the perfect system is to have both, the one competing against the other. If you had the whole trade of the country run by co-operative societies, you would have no comparison, no contrast, in order to check the prices, while on the other hand, so long as you have the two, the private trader cannot bleed the consumer, because the co-operative society is there to protect him. I only raised the point about the new dress or the new hat to distinguish between the two kinds of trading. Where personal taste plays a very big part, the question is very different from such a thing as coal, which is all black, whether you buy it from a store or from a private trader. I am assuming that the private trader and the co-operative society are honest in supplying the same quality. There is no question of taste in purchasing coal. I come back, therefore, to this, that in any country where you have mutual trading societies or co-operative societies along-side private traders, the consumers can never be fleeced in the matter of price. In buying anything like coal, if the private trader were attempting to fleece the consumer, all the sales of coal would go into the hands of the co-operative societies.

I cannot, as I say, discover the meaning of this Clause from the standpoint of the mineowner or from the stand-point of the consumer. Whose purpose, therefore, is to be served? Is it the workers? I am astonished to hear hon. Members preaching the German cartel system. That system is not now paying, and never has paid, a bigger wage to the miners in Germany than the miners are paid in this country. The German cartel has never secured to the German miner better conditions than the British miner has. Indeed, the German cartel is simply one of those devices where a certain type of capitalist protects his profit while pretending to protect the worker's wage, but secures both the profit and the wage by a simple exploitation of the consumer. That is the German cartel, and I say to the mining representatives opposite, that when you come to examine the working of the German cartel, you find some explanation of the great rise in the sale of German lignite or brown coal. Black coal under the cartel is being sold at such a figure that the brown coal is attractive for its cheaper price. In that fact you have the explanation why brown coal is mounting up in sales. For all these reasons, because I cannot discover any justification for this Clause, from the standpoint of the consumer, of the wage-earner, or of the coalowner, with the utmost desire to be fair in my criticism of a Clause submitted by one for whom I have so much respect as I have for the right hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson), I must say that I have come to the conclusion that not one particle of case has been made out in support of the Clause. That being so, I think I shall be wholly justified in opposing it.


In rising to support this Clause, I want to say that I believe it will have a large bearing in helping to give effect to some of the savings contemplated by the Coal Commission. The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Kidd) said he could not understand the Clause, but I suggest that if he had lent his mind more fully to it than he has apparently done, he would have been able thoroughly to understand it. He wanted to know if this would be of any assistance to mine-owners or to consumers, and he laboured those two factors all through his speech until nearly the last sentence or two, when he brought in the wage-earners. I think he wanted to inquire whether there would be any interest accruing to any of the persons concerned in the matter of the distribution and consumption of coal. We are quite satisfied in our minds that the four gentlemen who composed the Coal Commission are men of extraordinary capabilities, and it was on their practical knowledge and the evidence submitted to them that they came to the conclusion that selling agencies should be set up. Earlier in the Debate we discussed a Clause in regard to the municipalisation of coal, and it was pointed out by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, in his usual plausible style, that it would not bring much benefit to the mining industry. I want to suggest that any one of these proposals, taken alone, would probably not be of much benefit to the coal industry, but it is by the aggregation of all these different proposals that we believe sonic salvation can be brought into the industry.

I want to suggest also that there is a wide difference between the municipal selling of coal and the setting up of these co-operative selling agencies. This scheme lies at the very root of the real distribution of the coal mined in this country. The present method of distribution has been condemned by every Commission that has sat to inquire into the mining industry. First, you had the Sankey Commission condemning it wholesale, then you had the Buckmaster Committee, you had the MacMillan Committee, and, finally, the Samuel Commission, all of which have given a strong leading in regard to the foolish way in which coal is distributed in this country. The selling agencies, as we understand them, and as we believe the Commission meant them to be understood, are to be large coal factors, who really get hold of the coal at the pit heads and are responsible for the distribution of coal, not only to the internal markets, but to the foreign markets as well. One hears some startling stories told of coal being sold at a definite round figure for so many thousand tons, passing into the hands of coal factors, being shipped abroad, and there being sold at fabulous prices, as well as stories of similar increases in the home prices. Therefore, we say that the real people who ought to benefit from the mining industry are not receiving the benefit at all at the present time. These huge profits that have been obtained from coal—and it cannot be denied—are going back neither to the coalowners nor to the miners themselves, but, generally speaking, somebody in between them and the consumers, either nationally or abroad, is receiving immense benefit. We have only to read in the papers of the vast sums that are being left behind by certain merchants and others through profits made out of the sale of coal.

We believe that this being a national asset, if it cannot pass directly into the hands of the nation, the Government ought at least to see that the coal is distributed to the best advantage of everyone concerned. We believe that if this scheme were put into effect, it would not only produce a profit, and be of advantage to the miners and coalowners, but would benefit the public generally. I want to give the right hon. Gentleman opposite my measure of praise. He has met all our arguments very fairly and kindly. He has given us a tremendous amount of sympathy, and has distributed his sympathy fairly between his own followers and ours. We cannot complain about our not getting our share. He has promised us Committees, to take part in all of which would be beyond our numbers, and I see by the Press this morning a Committee has been set up to inquire into selling agencies. In his reply, I hope he will tell us all about that Committee. I am not going to say one word against the nominated members, but if he accepts our Clause, it gives that Committee bigger powers. It will give them more confidence, and enable them to go more fully into this question. They have got to consider whether selling agencies will be of any advantage or not. The Commission have already decided that they would be of immense advantage. If this new Clause were accepted, it would give the Committee the right to see how effect could be given to the setting up of these selling agencies, and enable them to devise ways and means so as to be able to recommend to the Board of Trade how this thing should be carried out. I would not like to go as far as to say that the right hon. Gentleman gave us a definite promise in Committee but he did say something about giving consideration to this matter between the Committee and Report stages, and I hope in the interval he has considered this matter fairly, and will be able to say that he is prepared to accept this new Clause.


Let me, first, clear up the point as to what I said in Committee. The hon. Member is mistaken in thinking that I said this was going to be further considered, or that I gave any sort of undertaking to review it on Report. What I did say, was that the Government were in favour of co-operative selling agencies, and if the acceptance of this new Clause would really put into operation a practical scheme of selling agencies, which could be adhered to, then, indeed, we might be able to accept it. What we have done is to set up a really strong Committee, upon which two hon. Gentlemen who sit on those benches have kindly agreed to serve.


No one nominated to the Committee represents transport, which is bound up with selling.


Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me, for a moment, to deal with the particular proposal before the House. We have set up a Committee on which two hon. Gentlemen on those benches have kindly con- sented to serve along with men who are extremely experienced in business matters. They will be able to take evidence which can be brought, for instance, by co-operative societies, wholesale or retail. I am quite certain that any suggestion which may be made to them, will be fairly and properly considered. The reason for setting up that Committee has been made plain by the speeches to which we have been listening. The right hon. Gentleman who moved this Clause referred to selling agencies having been successful in other industries. He referred to the tinplate industry, among others. But how have they been set up? By some compulsion? By some Act of Parliament? By some scheme devised for them by the Board of Trade, as is proposed in this new Clause? Not at all, but by voluntary co-operation between the men carrying on and responsible for this business. If this Clause were merely to ask for voluntary co-operation, then, indeed, it would be on all fours with the tinplate trade. But it is not, and to say the scheme has been successful when voluntarily concurred in, when the whole of the details have been worked out by men cognisant of the industry, and then to compare such a scheme with the proposal in this new Clause, is to compare things which are totally different. We are, by this Committee, going to try to find schemes which are suitable to the coal trade, and when those schemes have been examined and are proposed by that Committee, this House will be able to judge whether any further legislation be necessary on the subject.

The right hon. Gentleman also referred to the shale industry, and he pointed out that those owning shale mines had amalgamated, or, at any rate, pooled their operations. That is what the Bill enables. When we come to Clause 1, I shall point out that there are compulsory powers of amalgamation, and if the instance of the shale trade be good for the coal trade, then, under Clause 1, power is given for the actual amalgamation of the undertakings, and, once you have got the amalgamation of the undertakings, of course you have the amalgamated control of the selling of the output from those undertakings. But selling agencies are not very easy to enforce. This Clause suggests that they should be made compulsory. I wonder whether the Mover realises that the selling agency would necessarily mean that someone or other was to determine the quota which each mine was allowed as an output. The hon. Member for Rotherhithe (Mr. B. Smith) says that it does not follow. Let me examine it, because this is at the root of the difficulty. I am anxious that real progress should be made towards selling agencies, and I do not want to have that progress marred by what is thought upon the subject.

There is only a certain amount of coal of a particular class to be sold in a particular market at a particular time. The flooding of the market with coal reduces the price, and there is the danger of what has been called cutthroat competition. You cannot go on for long, in a time of glut, with the full production of which the mines in the selling agencies are capable. That means that their production has got to be rationed in some sort of way by the selling agency. The hon. Member still shakes his head, but other hon. Members who, perhaps, know more about the coal-mining industry than he does, must realise that if you are going to have a quota, you must have some sort of control of output. Control of output under compulsion is extremely difficult. Between one mine and another there would be all sorts of complaints. One mine would complain that it was not allowed full output, while other mines were. You would have difficulties between district and district, and mine and mine. I only say this because I want it to be realised that it is not an easy question. Hon. Members opposite say that they want a selling agency. They do not state the form of that selling agency. Let us see what this proposal is: The Board of Trade shall….promote the establishment of co-operative non-profit-making selling agencies. That is to say, a sort of agency which will be co-operative and non-competitive, but it does not say whether it is to deal with the selling of coal wholesale or retail. Then in the second part it goes on to say: Every amalgamation scheme shall provide for the distribution and sale of coal and coal products. After all, what we are trying to do is to get an amalgamation scheme through, not because of the difficulty of sale at all, but because the mines can be more efficiently worked if they are worked as one unit. The proposal of the Government is to promote efficient working rather than injure the industry by putting upon it a selling agency which no one wants. Hon. Members, by supporting this new Clause, are losing the substance while grasping at the shadow. They had far better wait and see—it will not be long—what is the result of the definite action of the Government in setting up the strong Committee with which, I am glad to think, hon. Members are going to co-operate. When the Committee has reported the House will then be in a position to make up its mind whether any further legislation is required. I hope the House will now come to a decision, for, as hon. Members know, there is a great deal to be done. There are still many Amendments from all quarters of the House which hon. Members doubtless desire to discuss, and it is very difficult to do so unless we get on.


It is very much to be regretted that those in the country who have a wide knowledge of these matters, and are accustomed to deal with them on a large basis, are excluded from the Committee which is to be set up. I hope it is not too late, in view of co-operative development in this country, to see that those who know

about co-operative matters should participate. It is interesting at this juncture to remember that we have long since pointed out that sooner or later the State must come to co-operation for a solution of its difficulties. Those for whom I speak are responsible for a business of nearly £300,000,000 a year. As a movement we are now assisting in marketing the Russian wheat crop. We are financing the Australian co-operative wheat crop. We are in direct touch with the Canadian producers, and the same applies to New Zealand. Surely any Government really desiring an adequate solution of these commercial and economic questions would turn to those in the country who have the greatest amount of experience of co-operative buying and selling on such a large scale, and invite them to be on a body of this character. The Government can hardly say that they have not been given the opportunity to consider the matter, as the Prime Minister himself was aware of it. I make a strong protest, and would yet express the hope that it is not too late that some business representative of co-operation in this country should be included in this Committee in view of the importance of its expected Report, and to make its recommendations as fruitful as possible.

Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The House divided: Ayes, 111: Noes, 256.

Division No. 387.] AYES. [2.32 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Gibbins, Joseph Lawson, John James
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Gosling, Harry Lee, F.
Ammon, Charles George Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Lindley, F. W.
Attlee, Clement Richard Greenall, T. Livingstone, A. M.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Lowth, T.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lunn, William
Barnes, A. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)
Barr, J. Groves, T. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Batey, Joseph Grundy, T. W. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) March, S.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Montague, Frederick
Bromley, J. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hardie, George D Naylor, T. E.
Buchanan, G. Harney, E. A. Oliver, George Harold
Cape, Thomas Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Palin, John Henry
Charleton, H. C. Hayday, Arthur Paling, W.
Cluse, W. S. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Hirst, G. H. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Cove, W. G. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Ponsonby, Arthur
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Potts, John S.
Crawfurd, H. E. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Purcell, A. A.
Day, Colonel Harry John, William (Rhondda, West) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Dennison, R. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Riley, Ben
Duncan, C. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Saklatvala, Shapurji
Dunnico, H. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Kelly, W. T. Scrymgeour, E.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Kennedy, T. Sexton, James
Gardner, J. P. Lawrence, Susan Shaw, Rt. Hon Thomas (Preston)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Welsh, J. C.
Shiels, Dr. Drummond Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Westwood, J.
Smillie, Robert Thurtle, E. Whitelev, W.
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Tinker, John Joseph Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Snell, Harry Varley, Frank B. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Viant, S. P. Windsor, Walter
Stephen, Campbell Wellhead, Richard C. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Sutton, J. E. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Taylor, R. A. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mr. B. Smith and Mr. Hayes.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Elliot, Major Walter E. Lougher, L.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Ellis, R. G. Lowe, Sir Francis William
Albery, Irving James Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s-M.) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Everard, W. Lindsay Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Fairfax, Captain J. G. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Macintyre, Ian
Balniel, Lord Falls, Sir Charles F. Macmillan, Captain H.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Fanshawe, Commander G. D. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Fielden, E. B. MacRobert, Alexander M.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Finburgh, S. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Beamish, Captain T. P. H. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Malone, Major P. B.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Forrest, W. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Berry, Sir George Galbraith, J. F. W. Margesson, Captain D.
Betterton, Henry B. Ganzoni, Sir John Meller, R. J.
Blades, Sir George Rowland Gates, Percy Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-
Blundell, F. N. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Mitchell. S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Boothby, R. J. G. Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Glyn, Major R. G. C. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart Gower, Sir Robert Morden, Col. W. Grant
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Grace, John Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Brass, Captain W. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Neville. R. J.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Greene, W. P. Crawford Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Briggs, J. Harold Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Briscoe, Richard George Grotrian, H. Brent Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Brittain, Sir Harry Gunston, Captain D. W. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Brooke, Brigadler-General C. R. I. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hammersley, S. S. Penny, Frederick George
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Harland, A. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Buckingham, Sir H. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Bullock, Captain M. Hartington, Marquess of Perring, Sir William George
Burton, Colonel H. W. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Haslam, Henry C. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Butt, Sir Alfred Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Plelou, D. P.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Plicher, G.
Campbell, E. T. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Pilditch, Sir Philip
Cassels, J. D. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Power, Sir John Cecil
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Preston, William
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hilton, Cecil Price, Major C. W. M.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Holland, Sir Arthur Raine, W.
Chilcott, Sir Warden Holt, Captain H. P. Rees, Sir Beddoe
Christie, J. A. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hopkins, J. W. W. Remer, J. R.
Clayton, G. C. Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Rentoul, G. S.
Cobb, Sir Cyril Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Rice, Sir Frederick
Cockerill, Brig-General Sir G. K. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Couper, J. B. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland,Whiteh'n) Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Hume, Sir G. H. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Huntingfield, Lord Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)
Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hutchison,G.A.Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Ropner, Major L.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro) Jacob, A. E. Salmon, Major I.
Dalkeith, Earl of James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Daiziel, Sir Davison Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). Sandeman, A. Stewart
Davidson, J. (Hertf'd,Hemel Hempst'd) Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Davies, Dr. Vernon Kindersley, Major G. M. Sandon, Lord
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) King, Captain Henry Douglas Savery, S. S.
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lamb, J. Q. Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Dean, Arthur Wellosley Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Shaw, Capt. Walter (Wilts, Westb'y)
Dixey, A. C. Little, Dr. E. Graham Shepperson, E. W.
Drewe, C. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Eden, Captain Anthony Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Skelton, A. N.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Loder, J. de V. Slaney, Major P. Kenyan
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Lord, Walter Greaves- Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Smith-Carington, Neville W. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell- Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Tinne, J. A. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Wise, Sir Fredric
Sprot, Sir Alexander Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Withers, John James
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Wallace, Captain D. E. Wolmer, Viscount
Streatfeild, Captain S. R. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Womersley, W. J.
Strickland, Sir Gerald Warrender, Sir Victor Wood, E.(Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich W.).
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)
Styles, Captain H. Walter Wells, S. R. Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. Worthington Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple Wragg- Herbert
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Templeton, W. P. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Major Cope and Captain Viscount
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Winby, Colonel L. P. Curzon.