BOARDS OF GUARDIANS (DEFAULT) BILL.

HC Deb 08 July 1926 vol 197 cc2363-414

Again considered in Committeee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Mr. T. GRIFFITHS

As I was about to say—

Lieut.-Colonel JAMES

On a point of Order, Mr. Chairman. I want to know whether it is in order now to raise a question in regard to a considerable disturbance which took place in another place just now?

The CHAIRMAN

It is not in order.

Captain WALTER SHAW

Is it in order, Mr. Chairman, for an hon. Member to raise a question on the Motion which was made that Black Rod should not be admitted?

The CHAIRMAN

It is not in order in Committee on this Bill.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

I want to raise another point of Order. When Black Rod is coming here and is announced, and when it is moved that he be not admitted, is there nothing that can be done—

The CHAIRMAN

That question does not arise here. When the usual information of Black Rod's approach is given by the Sergeant-at-Arms, it is the duty of the Chairman to vacate the Chair for Mr. Speaker, and until Mr. Speaker again leaves the Chair, the Chairman has nothing to do with the proceedings.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

I would move then that you vacate the Chair now—

The CHAIRMAN

That is not in order. Mr. Griffiths.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

I will move then that the Sitting be adjourned, in order that—

The CHAIRMAN

That is a Motion I cannot accept.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

I have it on the highest authority that it is the correct procedure to move that you vacate the Chair, in order that Mr. Speaker—

The CHAIRMAN

No, it is not in order. When Black Rod gives a summons to this House to go to the House of Peers, the Chairman of the Committee on a Bill has no duty in regard to that except to vacate the Chair, and make room for Mr. Speaker. Therefore, no point of Order can arise. Mr. Griffiths.

9.0 P.M.

Mr. GRIFFITHS

This Amendment which I am moving will enable the Government to deal as drastically with boards of guardians which are not progressive as the Bill now enables the Minister of Health to deal with boards of guardians which are progressive.

Mr. J. HUDSON

On a point of Order. Is it in order for the proceedings of this Committee to continue without interruption when one hon. Member of this House has violently assaulted another hon. Member during the progress of hon. Members to the House of Lords?

The CHAIRMAN

It is perfectly in order; otherwise anyone who wishes to suspend the proceedings of the Committee would proceed to assault another hon. Member.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

That is an incitement to violence on your part. You should never have put that into anybody's head.

The CHAIRMAN

Mr. Griffiths.

Mr. GRIFFITHS

rose—

Mr. BROMLEY

May I ask for your guidance, Sir. Do I correctly understand your ruling on the point just raised by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. J. Hudson), that it is in order for any hon. Member of this House violently to assault another hon. Member?

The CHAIRMAN

What I said was that if an assault was committed by one hon. Member on another, there is no reason why we should not go on with our business.

Mr. HUDSON

On that point of Order—

The CHAIRMAN

I have given my ruling.

Mr. HUDSON

On a further point of Order, Mr. Hope. The question I desire to put is this: Considering that a violent assault has been made by one Member upon another—[HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"]—the hon. Member for Skipton (Mr. Roy Bird) upon the hon. Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Gardner)—can I move, "That the Chairman do Report Progress, and ask leave to sit again"?

The CHAIRMAN

I am afraid I cannot accept that Motion. Mr. Griffiths. [Interruption.]

Mr. GRIFFITHS

rose—

Mr. PALING

May I ask whether, in view of the unprecedented character of what has just happened, and in view of the ruling you have given, you can give us any advice as to the best method of bringing this question up for discussion?

The CHAIRMAN

My business is to conduct the proceedings here, and not to take any cognisance of what happens outside. Mr. Griffiths.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

It is another indication of how generous we are. [Interruption.]

Mr. GRIFFITHS

In putting forward this matter—

Sir W. LANE MITCHELL

On a point of Order—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down!" "Chinese ham!" "Ching-Ching!" and Interruption.]

Mr. DUNCAN GRAHAM

On a point of Order. May I ask whether you cannot give us any advice on this matter? Might I ask whether it would be possible for the Leader of the Government or some other right hon. Gentleman to give us some indication of their view of this matter?

The CHAIRMAN

It would be quite out of Order for any Minister to do so.

Mr. GRIFFITHS

I have been trying to deal with the situation during a time of partial employment—between 1921 and the present year. If you analyse the present Bill, you will see that its object is to penalise and also to discharge democratically-elected guardians because they have paid out too much money in the relief of destitute people. The object of the Amendment is to give additional powers to the Minister to discharge reactionary guardians who refuse to pay adequate relief.

Referring to Blaeravon and the Abergavenny Board of Guardians, may I say that in the district the workmen themselves, without asking the employers to contribute to the unemployed, themselves contributed £ 41,000, and so saved the rates, which would have been called upon to contribute that money to those in need. There was a list read out by the hon. Member for East Ham which really astonished everybody who was in the House, and heard it. I trust now, after what I have said to the Minister, in reference to the Abergavenny Board of Guardians, which has the lowest amount of relief in the whole country, that he will accept the Amendment, so that those who are destitute in the district may have justice done to them.

Mr. GROVES

I beg to support the Amendment. I have much pleasure in doing so. As the House knows, we desire to insert words which will allow of adequate relief to destitute persons. We want the Minister to take action against unions that persistently refuse to grant adequate relief to destitute persons. Apparently, from what we have heard, there are, perhaps, 40 boards of guardians who have been in default in their duty of relieving destitution. They have spent the amount of money they have got from the rates and have been compelled to get on their knees to the Minister of Health in order to carry on their work. We find the Minister taking action against the West Ham Guardians because they have been giving what some think is adequate relief in cases of destitution. But that is the reason we are moving the Amendment. Hon. Members know that in the post-War condition under which the industrial areas have been, those concerned have been inundated with applications from able-bodied men who before the War were working people, men who in our boroughs contributed to develop the wealth and greatness of our country. I think it is as well to realise, after all is said and done, how the matter stands. Those who work in West Ham, that great East End area, have contributed largely to the wealth and development of the country.

The CHAIRMAN

The Amendment before the Committee relates to boards of guardians who have failed in their duty to grant relief to destitute persons, and the hon. Member's argument about the West Ham Board of Guardians does not seem to apply to that case.

Mr. GROVES

I was only giving it as a comparison. West Ham has been accused of granting adequate relief, and I have been pointing out the amount of relief paid in West Ham compared with the amount paid elsewhere. I was showing the difference there is between sense and the lack of sense, in order to give the Committee an opportunity of realising which side is right. I always try to obey the Chair, whoever is in it, but I think that right and wrong, adequacy and inadequacy, are relative terms, and you cannot understand what is adequate without discussing what is inadequate.

The CHAIRMAN

If West Ham Guardians fail in their duty to grant adequate relief to destitute persons, they will come under this Amendment. The Mover of the Amendment referred to unions which had so failed in their duty, and that was in rrder.

Mr. GROVES

I will endeavour to keep in order. We are protesting against the attempt of the Minister to put West Ham into the position of having to give inadequate relief.

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member can do that on Second or Third Reading, and perhaps on some of these Amendments, but not on this particular Amendment.

Mr. GROVES

I shall not get a chance on the Third Reading, and I did not get a chance on the Second Reading, but I will not take an undue chance on this Amendment. I am willing to address my remarks to the condemnation of those boards of guardians which do not grant adequate relief, and I am sure that if the people in those areas are as poor and have been out of work as long, as the people in West Ham, the attention of the Minister should be drawn to the fact that in this Kingdom there are Poor Law unions not so attentive to their duty as the Poor Law union with which I am associated. I was very interested in the speech of the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Griffiths) who mentioned certain Poor Law areas where the total amount of relief granted for a whole family was about 30s. a week. We can only speak from experience and our experience in West Ham was that when we granted a maximum of 45s. a week, to keep a man, wife and family, where there was about 5s., 10s. or 12s. a week of rent to be paid—humorous as it may appear, and out of order as it may be, experience proved that this was not adequate.

The CHAIRMAN

I must ask the hon. Member not to trifle with the Committee.

Mr. GROVES

I do not wish to trifle with the Committee. I am merely trying to adapt myself to the degree of mirth which seems to prevail in the Committee, and I am also trying to fit in arguments which are sensible and true and are very serious in the circumstances of the moment. I do not want to be the victim of the general mirth. I only want to point out that there are Poor Law unions which are not paying a scale of relief that can be considered adequate. The Minister by accepting this Amendment, ought to make use of his powers under this Bill to compel guardians who are proved guilty of neglecting their duties, to apply themselves to the needs of the poor and grant adequate relief.

Mr. MONTAGUE

May I ask you, Sir, whether it is in order upon this Amendment to discuss what is adequate relief?

The CHAIRMAN

Yes, it is.

Mr. GROVES

Then why did you interrupt me?

Sir K. WOOD

rose—

Miss WILKINSON

On a point of Order. When only two speeches have been made on an Amendment of this character, is it in order for the Government representative to reply before certain other points of criticism can be raised to which a reply is required. The custom is growing of replying at once from the Government Front Bench, and then other speakers make criticisms to which no reply at all is given.

The CHAIRMAN

He can answer when he likes.

Sir K. WOOD

I rise to reply to the two hon. Gentlemen who have just spoken and if any further points are raised which deserve a reply that reply will be given later. [Interruption.] I am sure hon. Members would not wish for a reply on points which do not deserve a reply. The point made by the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Griffiths) and the point, which is, I understand, his ground for moving the Amendment, is that in the particular area with which he is associated, the board of guardians took into account the fact that some people who applied for relief and who were concerned in the present industrial dispute, had various sources of income and deductions were made on that ground. This Amendment in no way interferes with the position in that respect. The board of guardians there, just as the boards of guardians in other parts of the country, must have regard, under the Merthyr Tydvil judgment, to any income of which the applicant for relief may be in receipt. Therefore, the object of the Mover is not met by the Amendment. The suggestion which is now being made is, as will be appreciated by hon. Gentlemen opposite, exactly contrary to all the arguments which have been used in the course of this Debate. Hon. Members opposite have put it to the Committee several times that boards of guardians ought to be given their own discretion, that there ought to be no interference with them, that they are elected bodies, and that no Minister ought to intervene in any way. Now, it is suggested that in the particular circumstances indicated by the Mover, there should be intervention. So far as the circumstances mentioned are concerned, if it were a case simply of the legal effects of the Merthyr Tydvil judgment—

Mr. WALLHEAD

Will the hon. Gentleman tell us whether the Merthyr Tydvil judgment rests on a High Court decision or on a decision of the House of Lords, and whether it is absolutely binding upon his Department?

Sir K. WOOD

Yes, Sir; it is binding on the Department and on boards of guardians generally.

Mr. WALLHEAD

Where was it given?

Sir K. WOOD

I do not know whether it was in the House of Lords or the Court of Appeal.

Mr. J. JONES

You ought to know.

Sir K. WOOD

The general effect of a decision in any Court, against which no appeal was lodged, is binding at the present time. No hon. Member would suggest that the Merthyr Tydvil judgment is not binding. It certainly is binding. I believe it was given by the Court of Appeal, but the fact that it did not go to the House of Lords would not be a reason why it is not binding upon every board of guardians and upon my Department.

Miss WILKINSON

If a judgment is given by the Court of Appeal in a certain case, does that judgment stand whatever Acts of Parliament may be passed?

Sir K. WOOD

The hon. Member is quite right there. If we brought in an Act of Parliament to reverse or vary the Merthyr Tydvil judgment, and had it passed by both Houses, of course that judgment would he varied or upset by whatever this and the other House did, but as it is the judgment remains.

Mr. J. JONES

On a point of Order. It is a well-known fact that these other boards of guardians against whom these judgments are given are not in a position to pursue cases to the higher Courts because they are under the authority of the gentlemen who are now making the excuses. We cannot go to law without their permission when we have exceeded the money they are prepared to lend us. Now they are making the Merthyr Tydvil judgment not a reason but an excuse.

The CHAIRMAN

That is not a point of Order, but if the hon. Member likes to give way—

Sir K. WOOD

I am always desirous of answering such questions as I can. I do not think the hon. Member is right in suggesting that my Department has prevented the boards of guardians taking any case they desire to any Court in the country. The Merthyr Tydvil judgment has been a matter of discussion for some time, and as far as I am aware no board of guardians or body connected with questions of that kind has sought to dispute that judgment in Court.

Mr. JONES

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but the Merthyr Tydvil Board of Guardians is just one of the authorities that is in the financial cart, as West Ham is.

The CHAIRMAN

That is not a point of Order.

Mr. JONES

It is a point of Order. It is a point of Order on the matter of the judgment. It is, absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN

rose—

Mr. JONES

rose

HON. MEMBERS

Order, order!

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member must not interrupt. If the Parliamentary Secretary has concluded his reply for the moment, he may do so, but it is not a point of Order.

Sir K. WOOD

I still say that variation of the Merthyr Tydvil judgment will not be at all advanced by the Amendment which has been proposed. The Merthyr Tydvil judgment will remain, and this particular Amendment has no bearing upon it. My second point is that the argument addressed by hon. Members opposite that you must not interfere with the Poor Law guardians must apply equally to the proposals they have been making at the present time. Finally, I want to say this. As far as this Bill is concerned my Department has seen no necessity for an Amendment of this kind and therefore I cannot ask the Committee to accept it to-night.

Mr. GREENWOOD

Our view is that where a board of guardians is not carrying out its statutory duties, it is not asking for anything which is unusual to ask that there should be some machinery for enforcing the duty upon the guardians. When the right hon. Gentleman referred to certain Bills that have been introduced by the Labour party as precedents for his action, he failed to realise that in those cases we were not going to supersede local authorities, but were mainly proposing steps whereby the State should, in default of local authorities carrying out their duties, carry these duties out on behalf of the local authorities. This Bill is quite another thing. It smacks of a repressive movement against boards of guardians who, perhaps, may be generous. If this Bill is to be robbed of a certain class consciousness which is obvious in the argument which has been used from the other side, it will be perfectly fair to say, if a board of guardians through excessive generosity, cannot make ends meet, it is to be superseded, so also you will supersede the local authority that does not carry out its special duties. Surely that is not an illogical attitude for us to take? The hon. Gentleman says that, as far as he knows, boards of guardians are carrying out their duties in a satisfactory way, and there is no need for an Amendment of this kind. Not in his opinion, but we should be the first to argue that the Minister of Health will never lift his finger to ensure that boards of guardians give adequate relief, but is always willing, and, indeed, anxious, to prevent any local authorities from becoming more generous than he would desire them to be. It seems to us only fair that, if the Minister is going to take those enormous powers into his hands, he ought at least to use those powers for the fuller enforcement of the law as well as against those people who have, perhaps, been too enthusiastic in carrying out their duty. Therefore, with a view to giving this Bill balance and making it a fair Bill, which will tell against all local authorities who exceed their duties or do not carry out their duties, an Amendment of this kind should find its place in the Bill. Although I have not lost hope of it, I trust that the Government will see their way to meet what is a very modest Amendment and which will give the Bill a fairness which at the present time it does not possess. As the Bill stands now, it shows that the Government are not concerned with the well-being of the poor, but that they are only concerned with the reduction of expenditure, and it would get rid of that feeling we all on these benches have about this Bill that it is intended as a repressive Measure.

Miss WILKINSON

In supporting this Amendment, may I point out to the Minister how difficult it is on a matter of this kind, which is very real and substantial, if, after a couple of speeches, the Minister gets up and indicates the attitude of the Government which leaves those of us who wish to raise points in the position of feeling that the whole of the Debate has become unreal. I want to urge upon the Minister that whatever his views about the rest of the Bill, this is an Amendment which might very well be accepted by the Government. If the Government realised the feeling there is in the country that this Bill has been dictated by political bias against political opponents, they would welcome this Amendment as showing the country that they wish to act impartially wherever guardians are failing in their duty, either by giving excessive relief or by giving inadequate relief. I know the Minister will say that if a board of guardians are giving inadequate relief, or even have persistently failed to grant relief at all, that, at any rate, keeps them within their financial competence, and that he has no concern with them; but we ought to consider not merely the finances of boards of guardians, but also the position of the people asking for relief. That may be a novel point of view to urge on the present Government, but it is necessary for us on these benches to call attention to the fact that guardians are supposed to give adequate relief, and that if they do not that they are failing in their duty, and that if they persistently refuse to carry out their duty a Bill of this kind would be a very useful weapon in the hands of the Minister.

There are boards of guardians in this country—a growing number—who are refusing to give any out-relief at all to single women or to middle-aged women, offering them only "the house." This is a very serious matter, especially for young women, because it means, practically a sentence for life. The Minister shakes his head, but what is the position of these young women who, as is so often the case now, are refused unemployment pay and go to the guardians? In hundreds of cases they are told they cannot have outdoor relief but must go into the workhouse. The woman goes there with her box, or perhaps she has sold her box with her clothes in it, or, perhaps, again, as in some pathetic cases I know, the box is held by the landlady as security for rent. When she goes into the workhouse—if she goes into the workhouse not as a casual but into the workhouse itself—she cannot get out unless she obtains her discharge on some chance of getting work. In the workhouse she is robbed of all initiative and robbed of the means of getting out and getting help. Many of the guardians take her in to use her as an unpaid servant, and that is the end of it. This is a serious matter, also, for many middle-aged women who cannot get unemployment pay, although they have paid their contributions for years. They have been given their standard benefit and when that is finished they are turned off, and there is literally nothing for them. In cases where boards of guardians persistently refuge to grant outdoor relief or, as in some cases, will grant no relief at all, the Minister ought to take very stringent action.

There are boards of guardians also which make almost impossible demands on those who come before them. Some action is needed there. They actually tell the people who come for relief that they must sell their furniture before they can be granted any outdoor relief. Then there are boards of guardians which cut down relief to the very last point. There again the Minister ought to be able to take action. Again there are guardians of the type who are concerned in deterring people from coming. Women have told me they would rather go to prison than go before a board of guardians, so insulting are the questions asked them, and so complete is the questionnaire they have to face. I know the Minister will say that these are not questions which concern him, that this is purely a financial Bill concerned with dealing with one type of emergency. If the Minister does say that and refuses to accept this Amendment, he justifies all that we on this side of the House have said about its being a political Bill, about his being concerned with dealing with his political opponents and not concerned in seeing that guardians do their duty efficiently, only concerning himself with reducing relief to the very smallest possible amount.

Major CRAWFURD

I think the question raised by the Amendment is a simple one, and perhaps the right hon. Gentle- man or his colleague, if they think fit to answer any of the questions so far raised will give an answer to me. The hon. Member for Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) in replying to the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment, relied largely upon what he asserted to be an inconsistency between their attitude now and at a previous period of the afternoon. I do not know whether it was in his surprise over that that he forgot to answer the question raised. The action taken by the Minister with regard to a certain notorious case which is not to be mentioned in discussing this Amendment is, I understand, that he will not advance further sums of money except under conditions which, in effect, lay down a maximum standard of relief. The question I would like to ask is, "Is there any statutory or administrative rule which lays down the minimum standard of relief?" If there be, surely a provision ought to be put into this Bill to deal with the guardians who fail to reach the minimum as we propose to deal with those who exceed the maximum. That seems to be the simple point raised by this Amendment.

Miss LAWRENCE

The Parliamentary Secretary made a statement which filled me with perplexity. I understood him to say that, under the Merthyr Tydvil judgment, all sources of income must be taken into account. Did I hear that aright?

Sir K. WOOD

indicated assent.

Miss LAWRENCE

Under the Merthyr Tydvil judgment all sources of income are to be taken into account. [HON. MEMBERS: "That is the general law!"] Oh, that is the general law of the country! That is quite different. I understood the hon. Member to invoke the help of the Merthyr Tydvil judgment on that point. The Merthyr Tydvil case had nothing whatever to do with the point, nothing in the world. All the Merthyr Tydvil judgment said was that if a man refused to work he could not be relieved, nor if he threw himself out of work by his own act or consent. So there was a pure evasion of the point raised! It is a point which causes many people acute distress. Under the Merthyr Tydvil judgment a striker cannot be relieved, but his dependants may be. His wife gets 12s. a week in some places and 10s. in others, 4s. for children in some places and 2s. in others; but there is no relief to the man. Nevertheless, if the man chances to earn 5s. some boards of guardians deduct from the wife's relief the 5s. he has picked up. That is altogether unbearably cruel. The wife's relief, under the instructions of the Minister, is not to be more than 12s., and with his approval, and under pressure by him on several boards of guardians, it has been reduced to less. The relief to the children in some cases is very small indeed, down to 2s., and yet if the man who has nothing whatever gets 5s., that 5s. is to be deducted from the wife's relief.

That is the position that the Minister takes up, and that is abominably cruel. He made no answer to it except to say that under the general law of the land you have to take the breadwinner's income into account in assessing the wife's relief. Where the wife's relief has been restricted by the Minister, and the man has no relief at all, under the Merthyr Tydvil judgment, to deduct arbitrarily any 5s. that the man gets out of charity is, to my mind, very cruel. The Minister will not accept an Amendment to the effect that it is his duty to see that relief should be adequate, but I would remind the Committee that the Minister was expressly asked in this House if it was not his duty to see that relief was adequate. He replied: "That is not my duty; it is the duty of the guardians." That is No. 1 indication of his attitude, and I will give No. 2. Circular 703 suggested as a maximum for relief that it was not to be higher than unemployment benefit, and everywhere you can see the same attitude, in the refusal to recognise the duty of seeing that adequate relief is afforded, and the insistence on maximum scales, but not on minimum scales. It all goes to prove that the Minister's object is to keep down the money and not to exercise the greater and more important duty, the duty implied in his official name, to see that relief is adequate. We are getting bit by bit really to grips with this question, and the House is beginning to see what is really involved in this Bill. It is the determination to cut the boards of guardians down in their scales of relief. Circular 703, the right hon. Gentleman's answers to questions, and this Bill are all parts of one considered and thoughtout policy, and that is why this Bill is arousing so much indignation in the country.

Sir K. WOOD

I do not think it is quite appropriate to discuss Circular 703 now, except to say that if hon. Members will look at it they will see that one of the first statements in that Circular is that the guardians must have regard to the position which faces them at the present time, not only in regard to their financial responsibilities, but to see that they carry out their duties properly. There is no Statute which lays down or suggests that we should prescribe their scales of relief, except in the sense that it is the duty of the guardians to relieve destitution. That is really the test, but my right hon. Friend has laid down certain scales for guidance. That does not void the statutory duty of guardians to relieve destitution and of necessity examine the more particular cases. I think that is really the legal position, and whatever the scale of relief it does not void the duty of the guardians in regard to relieving destitution.

Major CRAWFURD

I am much obliged to the hon. Member, and I understand it is not an exact maximum that the Minister lays down, but will he answer the further question as to whether the Minister or his predecessor has ever laid down a minimum?

Sir K. WOOD

No, I do not think it is the duty of the Minister to do that. It is a matter for the guardians, faced as they are with the statutory obligation of relieving destitution.

Major CRAWFURD

I understand that the statutory obligation of the guardians is to relieve destitution, but the obligation of the Ministry is to see that they do their duty, and how can the Ministry see that they do their duty unless there is in the Ministry some standard laid down as to what is the relief of destitution?

Sir K. WOOD

I think the hon. and gallant Member states the position of the Minister too high. It is not the duty of the Minister to overlook the boards of guardians, and to see that they are doing their duty in that sense. They are under a statutory obligation to relieve destitution, and if that is not done, there are certain rights, which are from time to time maintained in the Courts, on behalf of various people to see that they do that. There is no right or obligation on the part of the Minister, and it would be a usurpation of functions if my right hon. Friend endeavoured to lay down a minimum scale.

Mr. WALLHEAD

You usurp functions in one case; why not in another?

Sir K. WOOD

In answer to the point put by the hon. and gallant Member for West Walthamstow (Major Crawfurd), that is the legal position.

Captain BENN

This Amendment seeks to make one of the grounds of default on the part of the guardians a failure to grant adequate relief. Perhaps it is unnecessary, because the Bill says that in certain cases the Bill shall operate when they have ceased to discharge their functions. Is it the view of the Government that guardians have ceased to discharge their functions if they do not grant adequate relief? It is very important to have an answer to that question, and that the Government should make up their minds about a minimum scale, because they are here proposing to become guardians themselves.

Sir K. WOOD

No. The Clause says that the Minister may, in certain circumstances, appoint certain persons to constitute a board in substitution of the existing guardians.

Captain BENN

What sort of autonomy will such a board have? Who are to pay their wages? Will they draw their wages from the Ministry of Health? Is it to be supposed that they are representatives of the ratepayers? I do not think so. Does the Minister consider that boards of guardians have ceased to discharge their functions if they fail to give adequate relief?

Sir K. WOOD

This board of guardians will be in exactly the same position, so far as their duties and functions are concerned, as the elected boards of guardians.

Miss LAWRENCE

Are they to be under no control by the Ministry and subject to nobody's criticisms? If they were an elected board, the electors could tear them from their seats, but the Minister is to appoint them and to renew their lease of power and to pay their wages.

Mr. WALLHEAD

They are to act as the Minister's agents.

Miss LAWRENCE

They will act as the Minister's agents so far as cutting down relief is concerned. The Minister has said that it is a matter for the guardians, whether the people starve or not.

The CHAIRMAN

I would remind the hon. Lady that the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn) had risen to ask a question before she spoke.

Captain BENN

I should be the last to seek to curtail Debate, but I was asking a question. I am asking the Parliamentary Secretary whether, in the considered judgment of himself and the Minister of Health, a board of guardians are guilty of failure to carry out their functions if they do not pay adequate relief?

Sir K. WOOD

The answer which I have already given is that there is no statutory obligation on the guardians, in the phrase of the hon. and gallant Member, to pay adequate relief. Their obligation is to relieve destitution, and this board will be in exactly the same position as other boards of guardians.

The CHAIRMAN

This is a question of dissolving the existing board, not of what the new one will do.

Captain BENN

The question is whether we are to insert some definition of what a failure to discharge these functions is and the Amendment proposes that it should be defined as a persistent failure to grant adequate relief. I submit that the question of what is adequate relief is perfectly relevant. It is useless for the Minister of Health to say that that is not his business, but the business of the guardians to decide. That would be a perfectly adequate reply if the guardians were to remain an independent body, but, once they have become a body created by the Ministry of Health and under their orders, it is obviously necessary for the Ministry to decide and proper for us to ask what is the minimum scale of relief they consider adequate. Supposing there is a board which does not pay an adequate scale of relief, would the Ministry consider themselves able by this Bill to make an order to make them pay more?

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

Mr. WALLHEAD

(seated and covered): I desire to raise a point of Order. I rose to speak before the Division was called and I believe the Standing Order says that the voices are not collected until both sides have raised their voices "Aye" or "No."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 114; Noes, 208.

Division No. 345.]	AYES.	[10.2 p.m.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Duncan, C.	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly
Ammon, Charles George	Dunnico, H.	Kelly, W. T.
Attlee, Clement Richard	Gardner, J. P.	Kennedy, T.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertlilery)	Gillett, George M.	Lansbury, George
Barr, J.	Gosling, Harry	Lawrence, Susan
Batey, Joseph	Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton	Lawson, John James
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Greenall, T.	Lindley, F. W.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.	Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne	Lowth, T.
Broad, F. A	Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Lunn, William
Bromfield, William	Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	MacLaren, Andrew
Bromley, J.	Groves, T.	March, S.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Grundy, T. W.	Montague, Frederick
Buchanan, G.	Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Morris, R. H.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Morrison, R. C. (Tottennam, N.)
Caps, Thomas	Hardle, George D.	Murnin, H
Charleton, H. C.	Harney, E. A.	Oliver, George Harold
Cluse, W. S.	Hayday, Arthur	Owen, Major G.
Compton, Joseph	Hayes, John Henry	Palin, John Henry
Cove, W. G.	Hendersn, Right Hon. A. (Burnley	Paling W.
Crawfurd, H. E.	Hirst, G. H.	Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Dalton, Hugh	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)-	Potts, John S.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)	Purcell, A. A.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Day, Colonel Harry	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Riley, Ben
Dennison, R.	Jones, J J. (West Ham, Silvertown)	Ritson, J.
Saklatvala, Shapurji	Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe	Watson, W. M. (Dunfemline
Salter, Dr. Alfred	Stamford, T. W.	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondd-.
Scrymgeour, E.	Stephen, Campbell	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Scurr, John	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox	Welsh, J. C.
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)	Sutton, J. E.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis	Taylor, R. A.	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Shiels, Dr. Drummond	Thurtle, E.	Williams, T.(York, Don Valley)
Sitch, Charles H.	Tinker, John Joseph	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Slesser, Sir Henry H.	Townend, A. E.	Windsor, Walter
Smillie, Robert	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.	Wright, W.
Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)	Varley, Frank B.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)	Viant, S. P.
Snell, Harry	Wallhead, Richard C.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Phillip	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen	Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. A.
		Barnes.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Moreing, Captain A. H.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Galbraith, J. F. W.	Morrison, H. (Wilts,Salisburry)
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)	Ganzoni, Sir John.	Murchison, C. K.
Atholl, Duchess of	Gates, Percy	Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Atkinson, C.	Goff, Sir Park	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Gower, Sir Robert	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Grace, John	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Balniel, Lord	Grant, Sir J. A.	Nicholson, Col Rt. Hon. W.G.(Ptrsf'ld)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Greene, W. P. Crawford	Nuttall, Ellis
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton
Berry, Sir George	Guiness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.	Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Bethel, A.	Gunston, Caption D. W.	Pennefather, Sir John
Betterton, Henry B.	Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Penny, Frederick George
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton	Hammersley, S. S.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Blundell, F. N.	Harland, A.	Perring, Sir William George
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington	Radford, E. A.
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart	Hawke, John Anthony	Raine, W.
Bowver Capt. G. E. W.	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bottle)	Rawson, Sir Cooper
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.	Heneage, Lieut.-Col Arthur P.	Rees, Sir Beddoe
Brass, Captain W.	Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Reld, D. D. (County Down
Briscoe, Richard George	Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St.Marylebone)	Remer, J. R.
Brittain, Sir Harry	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. J	Holland, Sir Arthur	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Broun Lindsay, Major H.	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Ropner, Major L.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Hopkins, J. W. W.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Barks, Newb'y)	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Buckigham, Sir H.	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Rye, F. G.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen, Sir Aylmer	Salmon, Major I.
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Hurd, Percy A.	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Cassels,.J. D.	Hurst, Gerald B.	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Hutchison, G.A.Clark(Midl'n & P'bl's)	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Iliffe, Sir Edward M.	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Chapman, Sir S.	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Jacob, A. E.	Savery, S. S.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.	James, Lieut.-.Colonel on. Cuthbert	Shaw, R. G. (York W R., Sowerby)
Clarry, Reginald George	Jephcott, A. R.	Shaw, Capt, W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston	Shepperson, E. W.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	King, Captain Henry Doughlas	Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)
Cope, Major William	Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Skelton, A. N.
Couper, J. B.	Knox Sir Alfred	Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Lamb, J. Q.	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Cralk, Rt. Hon Sir Henry	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Smithers, Waldron
Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)	Loder, J. de V.	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Wlll'sden, E.,)
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert	Looker, Herbert William	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Lord, Walter Greaves	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Curzon, Captain Viscount	Lougher, L.	Storry-Deans, R.
Dalziel. Sir Davison	Lumley, L. R.	Strickland, Sir Gerald
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.	Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Catheart)	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Davies, Dr. Vernon	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Anges	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Macintyre, I.	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Drewe, C.	Macmillan, Captain H.	Templeton, W. P.
Edmodson, Major A. J.	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Macquisten, F. A.	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Elliot, Major Walter E.	MacRobert, Alexander M.	Tinne, J. A.
Elveden, Viscount	Maitlans, Sir Arthur D. Steel	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Westons-s.-M.)	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Margesson, Captain D.	Waddington, R.
Everard, W. Lindsay	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Ward, Lt.-Col.A.L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Merriman, F. B.	Warrender, Sir Victor
Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Watts, Dr. T.
Fanshawe, Commander G. D.	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Wells, S. R.
Fielden, E. B.	Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)	White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple)
Finburgh, S.	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Forrest, W.	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)	Womersley, W. J.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Winby, Colonel L. P.	Wood Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)	Mr. F. C. Thomson and Lord
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.	Stanley.
Wise, Sir Fredric	Wragg, Herbert
Withers, John James	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

The following Amendment stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. BARNES:

In page 1, line 8, to leave out from the word "have" to the word "of" in line 10, and to insert instead thereof the words "acted contrary to the law in the discharge"

The DEPUTY - CHAIRMAN

This Amendment is out of order.

Amendment proposed: In page 1, line 8, to leave out from the word "ceased," to the word "to" in line 10.—[Miss Lawrence.]

Captain BENN

I do not think an Amendment such as this can possibly be passed without some comment. If it is a serious Amendment, it deserves a serious reply from the Government Bench. It is proposed to leave out from the word "ceased" in line 8, to the word "to" in line 10; that is to say, that the anticipation to default ranks equally with actual default. This will make a very serious difference in the power of the Minister. He came down to this House and assumed the power to supersede a board of guardians, not only when they cease to discharge their functions, but also when they appear to be incapable of discharging their functions. Now it is proposed in this Amendment to prevent him acting in cases where guardians are only likely to be incapable of discharging their functions. It is inconceivable that the Government are going to accept this Amendment. If they are, I am very pleased to hear it, but it will certainly make a fundamental change in this Bill. But suppose they are not going to accept it and are going to act in a case where they anticipate some reason that default may take place, then, surely, they should say in this Committee stage some few words for the justification of the second of the powers they seek to take. The Minister of Health told us earlier in the Debate that a certain Amendment could not be accepted because this Bill had to deal particularly with the West Ham case. That may be so. I do not know. I should have thought, if you were going to deal with that in a Bill, you would have done so by an ad hoc Bill. That would certainly have limited the ambit of the Bill, and hon. Members from other parts of the country, like myself from Scotland, would have had no occasion to intervene.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

It does not apply to Scotland.

Captain BENN

I know it does not, but the Scottish Board of Health may wish to follow the right hon. Gentleman's example. He said this Bill applied particularly to West Ham. If that be so, what is the meaning of the anticipatory powers contained in these few words, applicable to where it appears they have ceased to exercise their powers, or, as he informed us, will shortly be unable to continue to exercise their powers. If this be an urgent Bill, intended to deal with the West Ham case, I submit it is not necessary for the Minister of Health to arm himself with general powers, and that it will not be necessary to bring in a general reform of the Poor Law if this Bill provides him with the necessary powers so to evade the intentions he has avowed. It may be that we have no power to compel the Minister to answer, and I may be simply a voice crying in the wilderness, but, at any rate, I maintain the elementary, but rapidly disappearing, privilege of addressing the Committee. That being so, I respectfully submit that this Amendment, which strikes at the root of the Bill, having been moved, the Committee have a right to expect the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister of Health to give some reply, and explain why the Government intend to resist this Amendment.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

The hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down says that this Amendment strikes at the root of the Bill. That is in fact the effect it would have if this Amendment were carried, because we should be in the position that the machinery contemplated by the Bill would only come into operation when the functions of the guardians had actually ceased, and people would not be able to get any relief whatsoever.

Mr. ARTHUR HENDERSON

Perhaps I may be allowed to explain why the hon. Member for East Ham (Miss Lawrence) contended herself with formally moving this Amendment. We feel very strongly about the Amendment, but we also feel that, however eloquently we may plead, the Minister of Health is quite impervious to all that we can say or do. We have, therefore, decided upon some half dozen of the most important Amendments, and we propose to move them formally, and make our protest in the Division Lobby. We shall leave over some three or four important Amendments for a short discussion to-morrow, and we hope the remainder of the day will be given up to the Third Reading. As far as we are concerned, the right hon. Gentleman by the usual method of a Closure, will be able to secure the

Third reading of this Bill before the close of to-morrow's sitting.

Captain BENN

I should have thought that it was not necessary to apply this brutal gag to an Opposition that was so meek and submissive as only to move their own Amendments formally. If Amendments are put down on the Paper, I submit that we are entitled to have an explanation from the Government. With regard to the explanation which the Minister of Health has just given, it merely proves that the words "have ceased" will be unnecessary, because, as be has explained, he must act in anticipation.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 223; Noes, 118.

Division No. 346.]	AYES.	[10.20 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut. Colonel	Curzon, Captain Viscount	Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Dalziel, Sir Davison	Hurd, Percy A.
Ainsworth, Major Charles	Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.	Hurst, Gerald B.
Albery, Irving James	Davies, Dr. Vernon	Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl's)
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)	Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Atholl, Duchess of	Drewe, C.	Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Atkinson, C.	Edmondson, Major A. J.	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Elliot, Major Walter E.	Jacob, A. E.
Balniel, Lord	Elveden, Viscount	James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert
Barclay Harvey, C. M.	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Jephcott, A. R.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Berry, Sir George	Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Bethel, A.	Everard, W. Lindsay	King, Captain Henry Douglas
Betterton, Henry R.	Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Bird. E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Knox, Sir Alfred
Blundell F. N.	Fanshawe, Commander G. D.	Lamb, J. Q.
Bourne, Captain Robert Craft	Fielden, E. B.	Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart	Finburgh, S.	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.	Forrest, W.	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Loder, J. de V.
Brass, Captain W.	Galbraith, J. F. W.	Looker, Herbert William
Briscoe, Richard George	Ganzonl, Sir John	Lord, Walter Greaves-
Brittain, Sir Harry	Gates, Percy	Lougher, L.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.	Goff, Sir Park	Lumley, L. R.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Gower, Sir Robert	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Grace, John	Macintyre, I.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Grant, Sir J. A.	Macmillan, Captain H.
Buckingham, Sir H.	Greene, W. P. Crawford	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John	Macquisten, F. A.
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.	MacRobert, Alexander M.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Gunston, Captain D. W.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel
Cassels, J. D.	Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Hammersley, S. S.	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Merriman, F. B.
Chapman, Sir S.	Harland, A.	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Harrison, G. J. C.	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)	Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Clarry, Reginald George	Hawke, John Anthony	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.	Moreing, Captain A. H.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Cope, Major William	Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)	Murchison, C. K.
Couper, J. B.	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Holland, Sir Arthur	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Hope, Capt A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Hopkins, J. W. W.	Nicholson, O. (Westminster
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)	Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.	Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W.G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Nuttall, Eills
Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Eillis	Oakley, T.
O'Conner, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Sanderson, Sir Frank	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Oman, Sir Charles William C.	Savery, S. S.	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Pennefather, Sir John	Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby)	Waddington, R.
Penny, Frederick George	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull
Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley	Warrender, Sir Victor
Perring, Sir William George	Shepperson, E. W.	Watts, Dr. T.
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)	Wells, S. R.
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)	White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dairymple
Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton	Skelton, A. N.	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Radford. E. A.	Slaney, Major P. Kenyon	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Raine, W.	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Rawson, Sir Cooper	Smith-Carington, Neville W.	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield
Rees, Sir Beddoe	Smithers, Waldron	Winby, Colonel L.P.
Reid, D. D. (County Down)	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Remer, J. R.	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland)	Wise, Sir Fredric
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Steel, Major Samuel Strang	Withers, John James
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)	Story-Deans, R.	Womersley, W. J.
Ropner, Major L.	Strickland, Sir Gerald	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser	Wragg, Herbert
Rye, F. G.	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Salmon, Major I.	Templeton, W. P.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)	Lord Stanley and Captain Mar-
Sandeman, A. Stewart	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-	gesson.
Sanders, Sir Robert A.	Tinne, J. A.
NOES
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Ammon, Charles George	Hardle, George D.	Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Attlee, Clement Richard	Harney, E. A.	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery	Hayday, Arthur	Sitch, Charles H.
Barnes, A.	Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)	Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Barr, J.	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Smillie, Robert
Batey, Joseph	Hirst, G. H.	Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Hudson, J.H. (Huddersfield).	Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Snell, Harry
Briant, Frank	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Broad, F. A.	Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)	Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Bromfield, William	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)	Stamford, T. W.
Bromley, J.	Kelly, W. T.	Stephen, Campbell
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Kennedy, T.	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Buchanan, G.	Lansbury, George	Sutton, J. E.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel	Lawrence, Susan	Taylor, R. A.
Cape, Thomas	Lawson, John James	Thurtle, E.
Charleton, H. C.	Lindley, F. W.	Tinker, John Joseph
Cluse, W. S.	Lowth, T.	Townend, A. E.
Compton, Joseph	Lunn, William	Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Cove, W. G.	MacLaren, Andrew	Varley, Frank B.
Crawfurd, H. E.	March, S.	Viant, S. P.
Dalton, Hugh	Montague, Frederick	Wallhead, Richcard C.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale	Morris, R. H.	Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)	Murnin, H.	Watts-Morgan Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Day, Colonel Harry	Oilver, George Harold	Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Dennison, R.	Owen, Major G.	Welsh, J. C.
Duncan, C.	Palin, John Henry	Westwood, J.
Dunnico, H.	Paling, W.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Gardner, J. P.	Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Gillett, George M.	Potts, John S.	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Gosling, Harry	Purcell, A. A.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Windsor, Walter
Greenall, T.	Riley, Ben	Wright, W.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Ritson, J.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Saklatvala, Shapurji
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Salter, Dr. Alfred	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Groves, T.	Scrymgeour, E.	Mr. Hayes, And Mr. Charles
Grundy, T. W.	Scurr, John	Edwards.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Sexton, James

Amendment proposed: In page 1, line 12, to leave out from the word "Act" to the word "to" in line 14, and to insert instead thereof the words "make provision for the election of other persons."—[Mr. Greenwood.]

Mr. BRIANT

It would be very strange if this Amendment were put to the Vote without a word being said on either side. I understand it is intended to suggest that, instead of leaving it in the hands of the Minister, the electors shall have an opportunity of selecting other representatives. Considering the immense scope of the Bill and the almost incoherent way in which it has been framed, it seems to me extremely advisable that before any autocratic action is taken by the Minister the electors should have an opportunity of expressing an opinion themselves. In the end reform will only come through votes. I do not know what the Minister proposes to do, and what he considers to be the functions of boards of guardians. I have had many years' experience on a board of guardians, and I know that the functions are of a very varied character. However able and sympathetic a Minister may be, it will be very difficult for him to decide what functions they have failed to exercise. The functions of a board of guardians include the giving of adequate relief. Does this Sub-section mean that, without any consultation with the members of a board, the Minister can decide either that they are not giving enough relief or that they are giving too much, and that they are consequently unable to discharge their functions? Does it mean that if they have not given enough assistance for the sick poor that he can take their functions out of their hands? If and when a Labour Government comes into office, the late Minister of Health might, and in all probability would, act in an entirely opposite direction from that adopted by the present Minister of Health.

For the protection of the Government itself, the electors should be allowed to express an opinion. The only method that can be successful is the education of the electorate and by giving them an opportunity to exercise their opinions, rather than the adoption by a Minister of autocratic powers. I hope that the Committee will consider this Amendment seriously, because if we do not carry the Amendment it will place not only the West Ham Board of Guardians, but other guardians, at the mercy of the Minister. He will be able to interpret the slipshod words of the Clause in any way he likes. I could suggest 30 ways in which a board of guardians might omit to discharge their functions. The adoption of the Clause in its present form places in the hands of the Minister powers far too autocratic, and we ought to have safeguards. I hope we shall have some explanation of the Amendment from the supporters of it, and also some explanation from the Minister of his point of view.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

The subject of this Amendment was touched upon in the Second Reading Debate. The situation that we contemplate by the words proposed to be left out is a deadlock which might occur, because the result of the election might be practically the same. In that event we should find ourselves after the election in exactly the same position as before the election. That is why we seek the powers which are here given.

Mr. J. JONES

I support the Amendment.

Major COLFOX

Has not the hon. Member already sufficiently—[Interruption.]

Mr. JONES

I am speaking on a totally different Amendment. I am speaking in support of a new election. The right to supersede a board of guardians is part of the Bill, but it is only a temporary right. The Minister admits that there should be a new election in the intervening period but after the present period the West Ham Board of Guardians or any other board—West Ham is only the stalking horse—may be affected. Does he suggest that he should have permanent powers to nominate his own paid board of guardians, with their paid advisers? That is what this provision means. We in West Ham, whatever and however the right hon. Gentleman may have his board of guardians' election, shall return Labour men and Labour women. They will be ordinary working men and women who will be returned. We want to know how this provision is to be carried out, and when. Are you going to carry on for ever, or until this Government lasts, which will not be for ever. This Amendment limits the powers of the Minister. Local authorities will have to find the money for this relief. Some of us have been on these local bodies, and do you think we are going to find money for you? [An HON. MEMBER: "Brotherly love!"] Yes, brotherly love. You will have to find the money, which you have never done before. We have bad to foot the bill up to now, and you will have to foot the bill in future.

Mr. WALLHEAD

You will have a strike of ratepayers in West Ham.

Mr. JONES

We shall have more than that, we shall have a strike of rentpayers. Although you have all the power, if you treat us decently, we will treat you decently.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is now going beyond this Amendment.

Mr. JONES

I generally go beyond everything, Sir. The object of this Amendment is to limit the power of Mussolini. The Government have no right to put aside the Common Law of this country. The right hon. Gentleman knows that he dare not make this a permanent Measure, but he is to have the power of appointing boards of guardians. The same right hon. Gentleman refuses to allow working men and women, who cannot afford to sit on public bodies, a shilling a day for lunch when they are working from 10 o'clock in the morning until 7 o'clock in the evening; and he is going to pay his little pigs. Who are they going to be? We know who they are. If the right hon. Gentleman does not know, I do. I can give you the names of some who are already proposed—retired civil servants, who have already got pensions. We have a right to put a limit on the power of this Birmingham potentate. The little idols made in Birmingham have hitherto been sent abroad, and it is time we kept this little one at home and limited his capacity for mischief. We demand that these powers should be limited. I do not want to use any threats. [HON. MEMBKRS "Hear, hear!"] No, I am not so capable as some hon. Members opposite, whose shirts have been washed oftener than mine. I can only say that in the course of events Labour may sit on the bench opposite, and a Labour man be Minister of Labour. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, the present Minister of Health, whether then he would be prepared to concede to that Labour Minister the same rights that he now claims for himself: that is, the right to say who shall administer the public health and the Poor Law? Is he prepared to admit that? No. I am sure he would never admit it.

Does the right hon. Gentleman—I ask him this question quite frankly—that when he asks the overseers in West Ham to see that the money is collected for Poor Law administration, from their point of view having no control—does he imagine that they are going to levy a rate for him? It will not be merely the board of guardians that he will have to supersede, he will have to supersede the borough council. The boards of guardians will not be the only people in trouble. He will have the overseers and the county council who will also be in trouble. The powers asked for by this Bill mean, not only superseding the board of guardians or the local authority, it will mean superseding the ratepayers and the authorities throughout the country. I wonder if hon. Gentlemen opposite quite comprehend what that means? I am one of the overseers in West Ham. We have not yet discussed the matter, because the rate has not yet been levied, but supposing those concerned come along and say we have got to pay money for these nominated officers, these non-elected people, without any responsibility to the people—that we have to find money for them. I am one of those who say that we are not going to do it.

You are not, therefore, merely raising the question of the boards of guardians; you are raising the question of the whole of the local government of this country, whether you like it or not! Consequently while we may be wrong we have to-day made you a good offer and invited you to put us to the test. The Parliamentary Secretary represents Woolwich, but the council there is not the rating authority. We are a county borough in West Ham. We are the rating authority. Woolwich gets the benefit of the Common Poor Law Fund of London. West Ham gets no benefit. Other parts of the country do not get any benefit. I therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman, are the Government prepared to face the issue of dislocating and disorganising the whole of the local government in this country? If they are let them say so. We are moving that the power of the Minister should be limited. The limitation of the power of the right hon. Gentleman means an end to his political existence.

Mr. MORRIS

The explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, that all that is contemplated by this Clause is to deal with the situation in a deadlock which has arisen, does not carry us very much further. Who is to determine when a deadlock has arisen? The situation in West Ham is not the only situation that can possibly arise, and who is to determine under this Bill when boards of guardians have ceased to function, or when they are not properly performing their functions? Occasion may arise which are totally different from the present situation, and the Government ought to ask themselves seriously whether this proposal does not carry them much further than they contemplated. Assuming that a Socialist Minister of Health came into office, and that a Conservative hoard of guardians in the West End of London declined to spend according to the scale determined upon by the Socialist Minister, and that the Minister then declared in that situation a deadlock had arisen—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

That question has been decided earlier in the discussion on this Clause.

Mr. MORRIS

This is a serious invasion of the democratic rights of the nation and of the present constitutional method, in circumstances the result of which the Government cannot have fully contemplated. If a Minister of a different complexion is to have the power to determine what is a deadlock, merely upon political grounds, the temptation will be very great.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

All that has already been decided.

Mr. MORRIS

The Minister proposes to do away with the electoral method and to appoint a new body. Does he contemplate that the new body he is

going to appoint will be any more effective than the previous body which has been unable to carry on under the former method?

HON. MEMBERS

Divide!

Mr. HARRIS

rose—

HON. MEMBERS

Divide!

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee proceeded to a Division—

Mr. HARRIS

(seated and covered): On a point of Order. Owing to a disorderly noise on the opposite side of the Committee, I could not hear the Question put. I submit respectfully that the Question ought not to be put unless it is audible to the Committee.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I do not think that is my fault.

Mr. HARRIS

Is it not right that, before the Question is put, there should be order in the Committee so that Members may hear? I do not know what is the Question that has been put.

Captain BENN

(seated and covered): On a point of Order. May I ask whether you will say what was the Question put?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

"That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 225; Noes, 99.

Division No. 347.]	AYES.	[10.49 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.	Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Han. Sir James T.	Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Cunliffe, Sir Herbert
Albery, Irving James	Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)	Curtis Bernett, Sir Henry
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)	Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)	Curzon, Captain Viscount
Atholl, Duchess of	Buckingham, Sir H.	Dalkeith, Earl of
Atkinson, C.	Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Dalzlel, Sir Davison
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Burton, Colonel H. W.	Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Bainiel, Lord	Cassels, J. D.	Davies, Dr. Vernon
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Dawson, Sir Philip
Berry, Sir George	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Dean, Arthur Wellesley
Bethel, A.	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Drewe, C.
Betterton, Henry B.	Churchman, Sir Arthur C.	Edmondson, Major A. J.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Clarry, Reginald George	Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)
Blundell, F. N.	Cobb, Sir Cyril	Elliot, Major Walter E.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Elveden, Viscount
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.	Conway, Sir W. Martin	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)
Brass, Captain W.	Cope, Major William	Everard, W. Lindsay
Bridgman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Couper, J. B.	Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Briscoe, Richard George	Courtauld, Major J. S.	Falls, Sir Bertram G.
Brittain, Sir Harry	Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Flelden, E. B.
Finburgh, S.	Locker-Lampoon, G. (Wood Green)	Samuel, Samuel (W'dtworth, Putney)
Forrest, W.	Loder, J. de V.	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Looker, Herbert William	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Lord, Walter Greases-	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Galbraith, J. F. W.	Lougher, L.	Savery, S. S.
Ganzonl, Sir John	Lumley, L. R.	Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Gates, Percy	McDonnell. Colonel Hon. Angus	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Goff, Sir Park	Macintyre, I.	Shepperson, E. W.
Gower, Sir Robert	Macmillan, Captain H.	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Grace, John	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)
Grant, Sir J. A.	Macqulsten, F. A.	Skelton, A. N.
Greene, W. P. Crawford	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.	Makins, Brigadier-General E.	Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)
Gunston, Captain D. W.	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Smithers, Waldron
Hammersley, S. S.	Merriman, F. B.	Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Harland, A.	Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Harrison, G. J. C.	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)	Moreing, Captain A. H.	Storry-Deans, R.
Hawke, John Anthony	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)	Strickland, Sir Gerald
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)	Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.	Murchison, C. K.	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Henn, Sir Sydney H	Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St. Marylebone)	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Templeton, W. P.
Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Holland, Sir Arthur	Nicholson, Col. Rt.Hn.W.G. (Ptrsf'ld.)	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Nuttall, Ellis	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Hopkins, J. W. W.	Oakley, T.	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Howard, Captain Hon. Donald	Oman, Sir Charles William C.	Waddington, R.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Hume-Willlams, Sir W. Ellis	Pennefather, Sir John	Warrender, Sir Victor
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen, Sir Aylmer	Penny, Frederick George	Watts, Dr. T.
Hurd, Percy A.	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Wells, S. R.
Hurst, Gerald B.	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple
Hutchison,G.A.Clark(Midl'n & P'bl's)	Perring, Sir William George	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Iliffe, Sir Edward M	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Radford, E. A.	Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.	Ralne, W.	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'I)	Rawson, Sir Cooper	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Jacob, A. E.	Rees, Sir Beddoe	Wise, S, Fredric
Jephcott, A. R.	Remer, J. R.	Withers John James
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Womersley, W. J.
Kennedy, T.	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Ropner, Major L.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
King, Captain Henry Douglas	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.	Wragg, Herbert
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Knox, Sir Alfred	Rye, F. G.
Lamb, J. Q.	Salmon, Major I.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	Captain Margesson and Captain
		Bowyer.
NOES.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Gosling, Harry	Lunn, William
Attlee, Clement Richard	Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	MacLaren, Andrew
Barnes, A.	Greenall, T.	March, S.
Barr, J	Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Montague, Frederick
Batey, Joseph	Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Murnin, H.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Groves, T.	Oliver, George Harold
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.	Grundy, T. W.	Owen, Maine G.
Broad, F. A.	Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)	Paling, W.
Bromfield, William	Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Bromley, J.	Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Ponsonby, Arthur
Buchanan. G.	Hardie, George D.	Potts. John S.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel	Harney, E. A.	Purcell, A. A.
Cape, Thomas	Harris, Percy A.	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Charleton, H. C.	Hayday, Arthur	Riley, Ben
Cluse, W. S.	Hayes, John Henry	Ritson, J.
Compton, Joseph	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Saklatvala, Shapurji
Crawford, H. E.	Hirst, G. H.	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Dalton, Hugh	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield).	Scrymgeour, E.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Scurr, John
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Sexton, James
Day, Colonel Harry	Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Dunnico, H.	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Shepherd. Arthur Lewis
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Kelly, W. T.	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.	Lawrence, Susan	Sitch, Charles H.
Gardner, J. P.	Lindley, F. W.	Smillie, Robert
Gillett, George M.	Lowth, T.	Smith. H. B. Lees (Keighley)

Snell, Harry	Varley, Frank B.	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)	Viant, S. P.	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Stewart, J. (St. Roliox)	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)	Windsor, Walter
Sutton, J. E.	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhonnda)	Wright, W.
Taylor, R. A.	Welsh, J. C.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Thurtie, E.	Westwood, J.
Tinker, John Joseph	Wiggins, William Martin	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Townend, A. E.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.	Mr. Morris and Mr. Briant.

Question put accordingly, "That the words 'appoint such' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 236; Noes, 116.

Division No. 348.]	AYES.	[10.59 p. m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Macmillan, Captain H.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Everard, W. Lindsay	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Ainsworth, Major Charles	Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Macquisten, F. A.
Albery, Irving James	Falle, Sir Bertram G.	MacRobert, Alexander M.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)	Fielden, E. B.	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel.
Atholl, Duchess of	Finburgh, S.	Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Atkinson, C.	Forrest, W	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Merriman, F. B.
Balniel, Lord	Galbraith, J. F. W.	Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Ganzoni, Sir John	Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Bann, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Gates, Percy.	Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Berry, Sir George	Goff, Sir Park	Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Bethel, A.	Gower, Sir Robert	Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col, J. T. C.
Betterton, Henry B.	Grace, John	Moreing, Captain A, H.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Grant, Sir.J. A.	Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Blundell, F. N.	Greene, W. P. Crawford	Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Guinness, Rt. Hon, Walter E.	Murchison, C. K.
Bowater, Sir T. Vanslttart	Gunston, Captain D. W.	Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir L B.	Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Brass, Captain W.	Hammersley, S. S.	Newton, Sir D. G. C. [Cambridge,
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Briscoe, Richard George	Harland, A.	Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrst'ld.)
Brittain, Sir Harry	Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Nuttall, Ellis
Brockiebank, C. E. R.	Harrison, G. J. C.	Oakley, T.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C.R.I.	Harvey, G (Lambeth, Kennington)	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Hawke, John Anthony	Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Henderson, Lieut.-Col, V. L. (Bootle)	Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks,Newb'y)	Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.	Pennefather, Sir John
Buckingham, Sir H.	Henn, Sir Sydney H.	Penny, Frederick George
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy	Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard	Peering, Sir William George
Cassels, J. D.	Holland, Sir Arthur	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Hope, Capt. A.O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)	Pato, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Hopkins, J. W. W.	Radford, E. A.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.	Raine, W.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N (Ladywood)	Howard, Captain Hon. Donald	Rawson, Sir Cooper
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)	Rees, Sir Beddoe
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Remer, J. R.
Clarry, Reginald George	Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Clayton, G. C.	Hurd, Percy A.	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Hurst, Gerald B.	Ropner, Major L.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl's)	Ruggles Brise, Major E. A.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Conway, Sir W. Martin	Iliffe, Sir Edward M.	Rye, F. G.
Cope, Major William	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Salmon, Major I.
Couper, J. B.	Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen't)	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Jacob, A. E.	Sandeman, A. Stewart
Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)	Jephcott, A. R.	Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Sanderson, Sir Frank
Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D
Curzon, Captain Viscount	King, Captain Henry Douglas	Savery, S. S.
Dalkeith, Earl of	Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Dalziel, Sir Davison	Knox, Sir Alfred	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Lamb, J. Q.	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.	Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.	Shepperson, E. W.
Davies, Dr. Vernon	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Dawson, Sir Philip	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Sinclair, Col.T.(Queen's Univ.,Belfst.)
Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Loder, J. de V.	Skelton, A. N.
Drewe, C.	Looker, Herbert William	Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Edmondson, Major A. J.	Lord, Walter Greaves	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine,C.)
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)	Laugher, L.	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Elliot, Major Walter E.	Lumley, L. R.	Smithers, Waldron
Elveden, Viscount	McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s M.)	Macintyre, I.	Stanley,Col.Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.	Wise, Sir Fredric
Steel, Major Samuel Strang	Waddington, R.	Withers, John James
Storry Deans, R.	Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)	Wolmer, Viscount
Strickland, Sir Gerald	Warrender, Sir Victor	Womersley, W. J.
Stuart, Crichton, Lord C.	Watts, Dr. T.	Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser	Wells, S. R.	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid	White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple	Wragg, Herbert
Templeton, W. P.	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)	Yerburgh, Major Robert D.
Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)	Wilson, R. R (Stafford, Lichfield)	Captain Margesson and Captain
Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell	Winby, Colonel L. P.	Bowyer.
NOES.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Ammon, Charles George	Hardie, George D.	Scrymgeour, E.
Attlee, Clement Richard	Harney, E. A.	Scurr, John
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Harris, Percy A.	Sexton, James
Barr, J.	Hayday, Arthur	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Batey, Joseph	Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Sitch, Charles H.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.	Hirst, G, H.	Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Briant, Frank	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Smillie, Robert
Broad, F. A.	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Bromfield, William	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Snell, Harry
Bromley, J.	Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)	Snowden. Rt. Hon. Philip
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)	Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Buchanan, G.	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Stamford, T. W.
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel	Kelly, W. T.	Stephen, Campbell
Cape, Thomas	Kennedy, T.	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Charleton, H. C.	Lansbury, George	Sutton, J. E.
Cluse, W. S.	Lawrence, Susan	Taylor, R. A.
Compton, Joseph	Lawson, John James	Thurtle, E.
Dalton, Hugh	Lindley, F. W.	Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Lowth, T.	Townend, A. E.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Lunn, William	Trevetyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)	MacLaren, Andrew	Varley, Frank B.
Day, Colonel Harry	March, S.	Viant, S. P.
Duncan, C.	Montague, Frederick	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Dunnico, H.	Morris, R. H.	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Welsh, J. C.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Murnin, H.	Westwood, J.
Gardner, J. P.	Oliver, George Harold	Wiggins, William Martin
Gillett, George M.	Owen, Major G.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Gosling, Harry	Palin, John Henry	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Paling, W.	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Greenall, T.	Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Ponsonby, Arthur	Windsor, Walter
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Potts, John S.	Wright, W.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Purcell, A. A.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Groves, T.	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Grundy, T. W.	Riley, Ben	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)	Ritson J.	Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. Hayes.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Saklatvala, Shapurji

Mr. J. HUDSON

I beg to move, in page 1, line 12, after the word "such," to insert the word "qualified."

In view of the arrangement that was made earlier in the day, and also in view of the general discussion that is being held at length covering the point in this Amendment, I will only formally move it.

Captain BENN

I wish to make it perfectly clear that Members sitting on these benches have not been consulted as to this Amendment, and are therefore not bound to observe the terms of the

arrangement. I would like to know what is the objection to the insertion of the word "qualified." It seems a useful thing that any person who is acting in this capacity should be qualified, and I should like to know what objection the Minister has to it.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

The objection is that the word is obviously unnecessary.

Question put, "That the word 'qualified' be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 108; Noes, 230.

Division No. 349.]	AYES.	[11.10 p.m.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Batey, Joseph
Ammon, Charles George	Barnes, A.	Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)
Attlee, Clement Richard	Barr, J.	Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Briant, Frank	Hirst, G. H.	Scurr, John
Broad, F. A.	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Sexton, James
Bromley, J.	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield).	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Buchanan, G.	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Sitch, Charles H.
Cape, Thomas	Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)	Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Charleton, H. C.	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)	Smillie, Robert
Cluse, W. S.	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Smith, H, B. Lees (Keighley)
Compton, Joseph	Kelly, W. T.	Snell, Harry
Dalton, Hugh	Kennedy, T.	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Lansbury, George	Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Lawrence, Susan	Stamford, T. W.
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)	Lawson, John James	Stephen, Campbell
Day, Colonel Harry	Lindley, F. W.	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Duncan, C.	Lunn, William	Sutton, J. E.
Dunnico, H.	Mac Laren, Andrew	Taylor, R. A.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	March, S.	Thurtle, E.
Gardner, J. P.	Montague, Frederick	Tinker, John Joseph
Gillett, George M.	Morris, R. H.	Townend, A. E.
Gosling, Harry	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Varley, Frank B.
Graham, D. M (Lanark, Hamilton)	Murnin, H.	Viant, S. P.
Greenall, T.	Oliver, George Harold	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Owen, Major G.	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Palln, John Henry	Welsh, J. C.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Paling, W.	Westwood, J.
Groves, T.	Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Grundy, T. W.	Ponsonby, Arthur	Williams, Dr J. H. (Lianelly)
Hall, F. (York W.R., Normanton)	Potts, John S.	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Purcell, A. A.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Windsor, Walter
Hardie, George D.	Riley, Ben	Wright, W.
Harris, Percy A.	Ritson, J.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hayday, Arthur	Saklatvala, Shapurji
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)	Salter, Dr, Alfred	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
		Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Hayes.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)	Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Ainsworth, Major Charles	Cunliffe, Sir Herbert	Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Albery, Irving James	Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St.Marylebone)
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)	Curzon, Captain Viscount	Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy
Atholl, Duchess of	Dalkeith, Earl of	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Atkinson, C.	Dalziel, Sir Davison	Holland, Sir Arthur
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Davidson,J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.	Hopkins, J. W. W.
Balniel, Lord	Davies, Dr. Vernon	Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Dawson, Sir Philip	Howard, Captain Hon. Donald
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Berry, Sir George	Drewe, C.	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Bethel, A.	Edmondson, Major A. J.	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Betterton, Henry B.	Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Hurd, Percy A.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Elliot, Major Walter E.	Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl's)
Blundell, F. N.	Elveden, Viscount	Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston s. M.)	Iliffe, Sir Edward M.
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.	Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.
Brass, Captain W.	Everard, W. Lindsay	Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Jacob, A. E.
Briscoe, Richard George	Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Jephcott, A. R.
Brittain, Sir Harry	Fielden, E. B.	Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Finburgh, S.	Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.	Forrest, W.	King, Captain Henry Douglas
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony	Knox, Sir Alfred
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Galbraith, J. F. W.	Lamb, J. O.
Buckingham, Sir H.	Ganzoni, Sir John	Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James	Gates, Percy	Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Goff, Sir Park	Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Gower, Sir Robert	Loder, J. de V.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Grace, John	Looker, Herbert William
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Grant, Sir J. A.	Lord, Walter Greaves
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)	Greene, W. P. Crawford	Lougher, L.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.	Lumley, L. R.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Gunston, Captain D. W.	McDonnell, Colonel Han. Angus
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)	Macintyre, Ian
Clayton, G. C.	Hammersley, S. S.	Macmillan, Captain H.
Cobb, Sir Cyril	Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry	Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Harland, A.	MacRobert, Alexander M.
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)	Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel
Cope, Major William	Harrison, G. J. C.	Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Couper, J. B.	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)	Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Hawke, John Anthony	Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

Merriman, F. B.	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Ropner, Major L.	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.	Templeton, W, P.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)	Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Bt. Hon. B. M.	Rye, F. G.	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Moore-Brabazon Lieut.-Col. J. T. C	Salmon, Major I.	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Moreing, Captain A. H.	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive	Sandeman, A. Stewart	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Murchison, C. K.	Sanders, Sir Robert A.	Waddington, R.
Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph	Sanderson, Sir Frank	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.	Warrender, Sir Victor
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Savery, S. S.	Watts, Dr. T.
Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)	Wells, S. R.
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)	Wiggins, William Martin
Nuttall, Ellis	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Oakley, T.	Shepperson, E. W.	Williams, Corn. C. (Devon, Torquay)
O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Simms, Dr, John M. (Co. Down)	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Oman, Sir Charles William C.	Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William	Skelton, A. N.	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Pennefather, Sir John	Slaney, Major P. Kenyon	Wise, Sir Fredric
Penny, Frederick George	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)	Withers, John James
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Smith-Carington, Neville W.	Wolmer, Viscount
Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Smithers, Waldron	Womersley W. J.
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Spender-Clay, Colonel H.	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F.(Will'sden, E.)	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Radford, E. A.	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)	Wragg, Herbert
Raine, W.	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G.(Westm'eland)	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Rawson, Sir Cooper	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Rees, Sir Beddoe	Storry-Deans, R.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Remer, J. R.	Strickland, Sir Gerald	Captain Margesson and Captain
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.	Bowyer.

Amendment proposed: In page 1, line 17, to leave out the word "twelve," and to insert instead thereof the word "three."—[Mr. C. Edwards.]

Captain BENN

Will the Minister accept a shorter period than 12 months? The right hon. Gentleman has already explained that his intention is to bring in a general reform of the Poor Law, but he says that he must in the meantime deal with the West Ham Board of Guardians. I would like to know what

objection the right hon. Gentleman has to taking three months instead of twelve?

Sir K. WOOD

Twelve months is the maximum period, but as the hon Member will see if he consults the provisions of the Bill, the Order can be revoked and a more limited period can be taken.

Question put, "That the word 'twelve' stand part of the Clause.'

The Committee divided: Ayes, 225; Noes, 102.

Division No. 350.]	AYES.	[11.20 p m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)	Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Fielder, E. B.
Ainsworth, Major Charles	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Finburgh, S.
Albery, Irving James	Chartoris, Brigadier-General J.	Forrest, W.
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)	Clayton, G. C.	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Atholl, Duchess of	Cobb, Sir Cyril	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Atkinson, C.	Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Galbraith, J. F. W.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Ganzoni, Sir John
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Cope, Major William	Gates, Percy
Balniel, Lord	Cowper, J. B.	Goff, Sir Park
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Courtauld, Major J. S.	Grace, John
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe)	Grant, Sir J. A.
Bethel, A.	Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend)	Greene, W. P. Crawford
Betterton, Henry B.	Cunliffe, Sir Herbert	Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Gunston, Captain D. W.
Blundell, F. N.	Dalkeith, Earl of	Hail, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Dalziel, Sir Davison	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart	Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Hammersley, S. S.
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.	Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.	Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Brass, Captain W.	Davies, Dr. Vernon	Harland, A.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Dawson, Sir Philip	Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Briscoe, Richard George	Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Harrison, G. J. C.
Brittain, Sir Harry	Drewe, C.	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Edmondson. Major A. J.	Hawke, John Anthony
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.	Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Elliot, Major Walter E.	Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)	Elveden, Viscount	Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(St.Marylebone)
Buckingham, Sir H.	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Holland, Sir Arthur
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Everard, W. Lindsay	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Hopkins, J. W. W.
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.	Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive	Skelton, A N.
Howard, Captain Hon. Donald	Murchison, C. K.	Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)	Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Hume Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Smithers, Waldron
Hutchison, G.A.Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)	Nuttall, Ellis	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Iliffe, Sir Edward M.	Oakley, T.	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'sland)
Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.	Oman, Sir Charles William C.	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen't)	Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William	Storry-Deans, R.
Jacob, A. E	Owen, Major G.	Strickland, Sir Gerald
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Pennefather, Sir John	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Penny, Frederick George	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
King, Captain Henry Douglas	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Templeton, W. P.
Knox, Sir Alfred	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Lamb, J. Q.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.	Radford, E. A.	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Raine, W.	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell
Loder, J. de V.	Rawson, Sir Cooper	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Looker, Herbert William	Rees, Sir Beddoe	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Lord, Walter Greave.	Remer, J. R.	Waddington, R.
Lougher, L.	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Ward, Lt.-Col.A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Lumley, L. R.	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)	Warrender, Sir Victor
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Ropner, Major L.	Watts, Dr. T.
Macintyre, I.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.	Wells, S. R.
Macmillan, Captain H.	Russell Alexander West (Tynemouth)	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Rye, F. G.	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
MacRobert Alexander M.	Salmon, Major I.	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Sandeman, A. Stewart	Wise, Sir Fredric
Margesson, Captain D.	Sanders, Sir Robert A.	Withers, John James
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Sanderson, Sir Frank	Wolmer, Viscount
Merriman, F. B.	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.	Womersley, W. J.
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Savery, S. S.	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)	Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wills, Westb'y)	Wragg, Herbert
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon B. M.	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Shepperson, E. W.
Moreing, Captain A. H.	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)	Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)	Captain Viscount Curzon and Captain Bowyer.
NOES.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Hardie, George D.	Salter, Dr. Alfred
Ammon, Charles George	Harney, E. A.	Scurr, John
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Hayday, Arthur	Sexton, James
Barnes, A.	Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Barr, J.	Hirst, G. H.	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Batey, Joseph	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Sitch, Charles H.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Smillie, Robert
Briant, Frank	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Broad, F. A.	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Snell, Harry
Bromley, J.	Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)	Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Buchanan, G.	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Stamford, T. W.
Cape, Thomas	Kelly, W. T.	Stephen, Campbell
Charleton, H. C.	Kennedy, T.	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Cluse, W. S.	Lansbury, George	Sutton, J. E.
Compton, Joseph	Lawrence, Susan	Taylor, R. A.
Dalton, Hugh	Lawson, John James	Thurtle, E.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Lindley, F. W.	Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Lunn, William	Townend, A. E.
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)	MacLaren, Andrew	Varley, Frank B.
Day, Colonel Harry	March, S.	Viant, S. P.
Duncan, C.	Montague, Frederick	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Dunnico, H.	Morris, R. H.	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedweilty)	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Welsh, J. C.
Gillett, George M.	Murnin, H.	Westwood, J.
Gosling, Harry	Oliver, George Harold	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Palin, John Henry	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Greenall, T.	Paling, W.	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Ponsonby, Arthur	Windsor, Walter
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Potts, John S.	Wright, W.
Groves, T.	Purcell, A. A.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T. W.	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)	Ritson, J.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)	Saklatvala, Shapurji	Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Hayes.

Amendment proposed: In page 2, line 6, at the end, to insert the words (2) Appointed guardians shall during their term of office present to the Minister at intervals of not longer than six months a report of their work and the manner in which they have discharged their functions, and the Minister shall as soon as may be present each report to Parliament."—[Mr. R. Richardson.]

Mr. BRIANT

The Clause remits power to an unknown body of persons, whose names may not even be divulged and who may give any scale of relief they like, perhaps the lowest possible, and the public will know nothing whatever about it. A great many Boards of Guardians do not even admit the public to the gallery and those who apply for relief may be given a lower scale under this than any other part of London. The least the House ought to ask for is that there should be some means of knowing what is done, particularly when one remembers that it is quite possible for a Board of Guardians to be defeated at one election and the whole of their places filled by other guardians who are elected, and if the Minister chooses he can appoint guardians in the place of those elected and carry on their work. I am very anxious that administrative power shall not pass into the hands of people whose names are not given to us, and apparently will not be given, and who will give any male or no scale of relief at all. At least we have a right to ask that a report shall be submitted which will give some indication as to the work of the Board. It is reasonable that the Amendment should be accepted and that West Ham should not be kept in the dark as to what happens.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

The hon. Member is mistaken in thinking that the names will not be known. The names will be in the Order. Therefore the House will know who are the appointed guardians. There will be no difficulty in finding out what the Guardians are doing. It will be possible to put down a question, and the Minister will be able to answer. The Guardians will have a tremendous amount of work to do, and I would not like to add to their difficulties by insisting upon formal reports from them, as suggested by hon. Members opposite.

Major CRAWFURD

The names of the guardians are not the most important matter. We hear very little of what they are to do. It is not only a question of making a report, but of this House having an opportunity of knowing what actions are being taken by these guardians, and whether they are discharging their functions any better than the people they have replaced. One hon. Member has made reference to those of my party who live in West Ham. What he alleged may or may not be true, but whether it be true or not, one of the most important things we have to take into account is that whatever happens to these boards of guardians, the happenings should be made public. The right hon. Gentleman and the Government are doing an extreme thing in taking away the functions of an elected body, and putting them into the hands of a nominated body. When that is being done, under the control of the Minister, it is reasonable to ask that the House should be kept informed of the results of the experiment, and that periodical reports should be made.

Mr. GROVES

I object to the members of a party who have been absent nearly all day, and who could not find tellers in favour of their own Amendment, coming here now, and, with so much unction, appearing to father the opposition to the Bill. I wish to restate that in the opinion of West Ham, the people who gave information to the Minister, and who have led the campaign against the relief we give in West Ham, belong to the Liberal Party.

Captain BENN

The trouble we are in to-night arises from the fact that the Government took a whole week to discuss the Eight Hours Bill, and did not give sufficient time for discussing this Bill. I intend to discuss the Amendments, and to say what I think. The purpose of the Bill is to enable the Minister to appoint functionaires of his own to cut down the relief that is given in certain districts. All that this Amendment does is to ask that the Minister's servants shall not work in secret. It is said that their names will be given, but there is nothing in the Bill to that effect. They will meet in secret, and there is nothing in the Bill to compel them to admit the public; and now the Minister refuses the perfectly just demand that they shall make periodical reports of their meetings. I do not desire to take up the time of the Committee, but there are such things as the merits of a proposal. The reply of the Minister is utterly inadequate. He has made no reply. It has been a derisive reply. What is the use of putting questions to the Minister? I wish there had been time to put all the aspects of this case before the Committee, but it is clear

that the Minister is not only determined to carry out this bureaucratic procedure, but to do so in secrecy.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 100; Noes, 218.

Division No. 351.]	AYES.	[11.37 p.m.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')	Hayday, Arthur	Sexton, James
Ammon, Charles George	Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barnes, A.	Hirst, G. H.	Sitch, Charles H.
Barr, J.	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Smillie, Robert
Batey, Joseph	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Snell, Harry
Briant, Frank	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Broad, F. A.	Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)	Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Bromley, J.	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)	Stamford, T. W.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)	Stephen, Campbell
Buchanan, G.	Kelly, W. T.	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Cape, Thomas	Kennedy, T.	Sutton, J. E.
Charleton, H. C.	Lansbury, George	Taylor, R. A.
Cluse, W. S.	Lawrence, Susan	Thurtle, E.
Compton, Joseph	Lawson, John James	Tinker, John Joseph
Crawlurd, H. E.	Lindley, F. W.	Townend, A. E.
Dalton, Hugh	Lunn, William	Varley, Frank B.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	MacLaren, Andrew	Viant, S. P.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Morris, R. H.	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Day, Colonel Harry	Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Duncan, C.	Murnin, H.	Welsh, J. C.
Dunnico, H.	Oliver, George Harold	Westwood, J.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Owen, Major G.	Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Gillett, George M.	Palin, John Henry	Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Gosling, Harry	Paling, W.	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.	Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenall, T.	Ponsonhy, Arthur	Windsor, Walter
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Potts, John S.	Wright, W.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Purcell, A. A.	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Groves, T.	Ritson, J.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)	Saklatvala, Shapurji	Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Salter, Dr. Alfred	Hayes.
Harris, Percy A.	Scurr, John
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Cazalet, Captain Victor A.	Finburgh, S.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Forrest, W.
Ainsworth, Major Charles	Cecil, RI. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Albery, Irving James	Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Galbraith, J. F. W.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Ganzoni, Sir John
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Clayton, G. C.	Gates, Percy
Atholl, Duchess of	Cobb, Sir Cyril	Goff, Sir Park
Atkinson, C.	Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.	Grace, John
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Grant, Sir J. A.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Cope, Major William	Greene, W. P. Crawford
Balniel, Lord	Couper, J. B.	Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Courtauld, Major J. S.	Genston, Captain D. W.
Bean, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Conliffe, Sir Herbert	Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Bethel, A.	Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Betterton, Henry B.	Dalkeith, Earl of	Hammersley, S. S.
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)	Dalziel, Sir Davison	Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Blundell, F. N.	Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Harland, A.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Davidson, Major-General Sir John H.	Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart	Davies, Dr. Vernon	Harrison, G. J. C.
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.	Dawson, Sir Philip	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Brass, Captain W.	Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Hawke, John Anthony
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Drewe, C.	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Briscoe, Richard George	Edmondson, Major A. J.	Heneage. Lieut.-Col. Arthur P
Brittain, Sir Harry	Edwards, John H. (Accrington)	Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Elliot, Captain Walter E.	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.	Elveden, Viscount	Holland, Sir Arthur
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M)	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Hopkins, J. W. W.
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y)	Everard, W. Lindsay	Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
Buckingham, Sir H.	Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Howard, Captain Hon. Donald
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Fielden, E. B.	Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis	Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Smithers, Waldron
Hutchison,G.A.Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)	Newton, sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Iliffe, Sir Edward H.	Nicholson, O. (Westminster)	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F (Will'sden, E.)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Oakley, T.	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)	Oman, Sir Charles William C.	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Jacob, A. E.	Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William	Storry-Deans, R.
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Pennefather, Sir John	Strickland, Sir Gerald
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Penny, Frederick George	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
King, Captain Henry Douglas	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Knox, Sir Alfred	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Templeton, W. P.
Lamb, J.Q.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Thom. Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.	Radford, E. A.	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Raine, W.	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Rawson, Sir Alfred Cooper	Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Loder, J. de V.	Rees, Sir Beddoe	Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Looker, Herbert William	Remer, J. R.	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Lord, Walter Greaves-	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Waddington, R.
Lumley, L. R.	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)	Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Ropner, Major L.	Warrender, Sir Victor
Macintyre, I.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.	Watts, Dr. T.
Macmillan, Captain H.	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)	Wells, S. R.
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Rye, F. G.	Williams. A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
MacRobert, Alexander M.	Salmon, Major I.	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Makins, Brigadier-General E.	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Manningharn-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Sandeman, A. Stewart	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Margesson, Captain D.	Sanders, Sir Robert A.	Wise, Sir Fredric
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Sanderson, Sir Frank	Withers, John James
Merriman, F. B.	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.	Wolmer, Viscount
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Savery, S. S.	Womersley, W. J.
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Mitchell, sir W. Lane (Streatham)	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Mansell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Shepperson, E. W.	Wragg, Herbert
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Moreing, Captain A. H.	Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)
Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)	Skelton, A. N.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive	Slaney, Major P. Kenyon	Captain Viscount Curzon and
Murchison, C. K.	Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)	Captain Bowyer.
Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph	Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Amendment proposed: In page 2, to leave out lines 7 to 9—[Dr. Salter.]

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 211; Noes, 87.

Division No. 352.]	AYES.	[11.46 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel	Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)	Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T.	Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Galbraith. J. F. W.
Albery, Irving James	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood)	Ganzoni, Sir John
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool,W. Derby)	Charteris, Brigadier-General J.	Gates, Percy
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.	Clayton, G. C.	Goff, Sir Park
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.	Cobb, Sir Cyril	Grace, John
Atholl, Duchess of	Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips	Grant, Sir J. A.
Atkinson, C.	Couper, J. B	Greene, W. P. Crawford
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Courtauld, Major J. S.	Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)	Cunliffe, Sir Herbert	Gunston, Captain D. W.
Balniel, Lord	Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry	Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.	Curzon, Captain Viscount	Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Dalkeith, Earl of	Hammersley, S. S.
Bethel, A.	Daiziel, Sir Davison	Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Betterton, Henry B.	Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd)	Harland, A.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)	Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.	Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Blundell, F. N.	Dawson, Sir Philip	Harrison, G. J. C.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft	Dean, Arthur Wellesley	Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart	Drewe, C.	Hawke, John Anthony
Boyd-Carpenter, Major Sir A. B.	Edmondson, Major A. J.	Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L, (Bootle)
Brass, Captain W	Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)	Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Elliot, Captain Walter E	Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Briscoe, Richard George	Elveden, Viscount	Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Brittain, Sir Harry	Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Brocklebank, C. E. R.	Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)	Holland, Sir Arthur
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.	Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)	Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Brown-Lindsay, Major H.	Everard, W. Lindsay	Hopkins, J. W. W.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)	Fairfax, Captain J. G.	Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H C.(Berks, Newb'y)	Falle, Sir Bertram G.	Howard, Captain Hon. Donald
Buckingham, Sir H.	Fielden, E. B.	Hudson. Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney. N.)
Burton, Colonel H. W.	Finburgh, S.	Hudson. R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward	Forrest, W.	Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Foxcroft, Captain C. T.	Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)
Iliffe, Sir Edward M.	Nicholson, O (Westminster)	Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.	Oakley, T.	Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. F. S.	O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)	Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Jacob, A. E.	Oman, Sir Charles William C.	Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)	Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William	Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)	Owen, Major G.	Storry-Deans, R.
King, Captain Henry Douglas	Pennefather, Sir John	Strickland, Sir Gerald
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)	Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Knox, Sir Alfred	Perkins, Colonel E. K.	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Lamb, J. Q.	Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)	Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.	Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)	Templeton, W. P.
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)	Radford, E. A.	Thom, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)	Raine, W.	Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Loder, J. de V.	Rawson, Sir Cooper	Thompson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Looker, Herbert William	Rees, Sir Beddoe	Thompson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Lord, Walter Greaves	Remer, J. R.	Tryon Rt. Hon. George Clement
Lumley, L. R.	Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.	Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus	Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)	Waddington, R.
Macintyre, Ian	Ropner, Major L.	Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Macmillan, Captain H.	Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A	Warrender, Sir Victor
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm	Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)	Watts, Dr. T.
MacRobert, Alexander M.	Rye, F. G.	Wells, S. R.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Salmon, Major I.	Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Makins, Brigadier-General E.	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)	Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Margesson, Captain D.	Sandeman, A. Stewart	Winby, Colonel L. P.
Marriott, Sir J. A. R.	Sanders, Sir Robert A.	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Merriman. F. B.	Sanderson, Sir Frank	Wise, Sir Fredric
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)	Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D	Withers, John James
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)	Savery, S. S.	Wolmer, Viscount
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)	Sheffield, Sir Berkeley	Womersley, W. J.
Monsen, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.	Shepperson, E. W.	Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)	Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Moreing, Captain A. H.	Skelton, A. N.	Wragg, Herbert
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive	Slaney, Major P. Kenyon	Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Murchison, C. K.	Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph	Smith-Carington, Neville W.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)	Smithers, Waldron	Major Cope and Captain Bowyer.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
NOES.
Ammon, Charles George	Hayday, Arthur	Sexton, James
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertitlery)	Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)	Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Barnes, A.	Henderson, T. (Glasgow)	Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barr, J.	Hirst, G. H.	Sitch, Charles H.
Bafey, Joseph	Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)	Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)	Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)	Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Briant, Frank	Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)	Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Broad, F. A.	John, William (Rhondda, West)	Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Bromley, J.	Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)	Sutton, J. E.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)	Taylor, R. A.
Cape, Thomas	Jones, T. I Mardy (Pontypridd)	Thurtle, E.
Charleton, H. C.	Kelly, W. T.	Tinker, John Joseph
Cruse, W. S.	Kennedy, T.	Townend, A. E.
Compton, Joseph	Lansbury, George	Varley, Frank B
Crawfurd, H. E.	Lawrence, Susan	Viant, S. P.
Dalton, Hugh	Lawson, John James	Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale)	Lindley, F. W.	Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Lunn, William	Welsh, J. C.
Day, Colonel Harry	Morris, R. H.	Westwood, J.
Duncan, C.	Murnin, H.	Wilkinson, Ellen C
Dunnico, H.	Oliver, George Harold	Williams, Dr. J. H (Lianelly)
Gillett, George M.	Paling, W.	Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Gosling, Harry	Ponsonby, Arthur	Wilson, R. J (Jarrow)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)	Potts, John S.	Windsor, Walter
Greenall, T.	Purcell, A. A.	Wright, W.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)	Ritson, J.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)	Saklatvala, Shapurji	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)	Salter, Dr. Alfred	Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)	Scurr, John	Hayes.
Harris, Percy A.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[Mr. Chamberlain.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. Deputy-Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Four Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.