POST OFFICE. (Hansard, 17 February 1926)

§ The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Viscount Wolmer)
The Committee would probably like a word from the Front Bench in explaining this Supplementary Estimate. Perhaps it would be convenient, if I took the biggest item first, is for some £600,000. This is mainly a re-vote, and the circumstances are as follows: After the Sutton judgment was delivered in March, 1923, a number of test cases were taken to the Court of Appeal, whose decision in November, 1924, was to the effect, in every case, that the claimants had made good their claim. The Government thereupon decided to pay the claims in full as quickly as possible. That necessitated a Supplementary Estimate of £2,350,000, which was presented in February last and which we hoped to be able to pay during the course of the financial year. We knew we could not pay all the claims during the last financial year, and therefore the sum of £150,000 was allowed in this year's Estimates for the payment of those claims. As a matter of fact, although the Supplementary Estimate was presented last February, the 1987 Consolidated Fund Act only became law on 27th March last, which meant that in the Post Office we had four days in which to pay 32,000 claims. I think the Committee will agree that that was an impossible task. The staff at headquarters worked exceedingly hard and did everything they possibly could. I should like to take the opportunity of paying a tribute to the way in which that work was carried out. When the clock struck midnight on 31st March we had only paid 21,000 out of 32,000 claims. Therefore, the Supplementary Estimate became inevitable.
To the extent of £500,000 this item is re-vote. The remaining £100,000 is accounted for by the fact that since 31st March a number of claims have been presented from boy messengers and learners who had, as part of the terms of their engagement, been promised appointments when they reached adult age. They would have secured such appointments had they not voluntarily enlisted during the War. The Postmaster-General has been advised that these claims were also covered by the Sutton judgment and other judgments; therefore they have 'been met and paid in full. That necessitates an extra sum of 2100,000, and accounts for the appearance of that large item on this Supplementary Vote. Practically all the payments in regard to the Sutton judgment are now completed. I think the Committee will he glad to know that.
The next considerable item on the Estimate is for wireless broadcasting, £223,000. This is merely handing over to the British Broadcasting Company monies to which they are entitled under their agreement. All the monies collected in respect of wireless licence fees have to be surrendered by the Postmaster-General into the Exchequer, and the authority of Parliament has to be obtained before the Treasury can pay out their share to the British Broadcasting Company. In our Estimates this year we estimated that the number of wireless licences would entitle the British Broadcasting Company to a sum of £350,000. As a matter of fact, they have been paid £573,000. Therefore, this Supplementary Estimate is necessary. The Committee knows that this does not cost the country a single farthing.
1988 In regard to Item K, "Engineering Materials," I ought to explain that the sum in the Estimate is practically all for ducts and cables for telephone development work, and is due to bigger purchases of these materials than had been estimated last year, and also quicker deliveries on the part of the contractors. The last fact especially is one at which I think we ought not to cavil, and telephone enthusiasts certainly ought not to be very much disturbed about it. The item only appears on our Estimates because of the date 31st March. All telephone engineering materials are purchased by the. Post Office out of the Vote, and when they are used for development work they are charged to the telephone capital account. If it so happens that by Slat March there is a somewhat larger supply of stores on hand than was estimated for, that naturally has to be accounted for in Supplementary Estimates. This amount of material will be absorbed at the present rate of telephone development in a very few weeks. It represents a small fraction of the £5,000,000 worth of stores which the Controller of Stores purchases every year.
In regard to anticipated savings of £86,000, the Committee will be interested to know that there is a saving on salaries, engineering contract work, and Post Office Savings Bank Department. In regard to the appropriations-in-Aid, it is mainly a payment from the Minister of Health on account of the work the Post Office has been doing in regard to the inauguration of the Widows' and Orphans' Pension Act.

§ Mr. AMMON
We have had a lucid explanation of the Vote by the Noble Lord. In these times, the Committee will have taken note of the word of commendation paid by the Noble Lord to the energy displayed by civil servants who have had to deal with the paying out of the very large sums of money which have arisen under the claims made in connection with the Sutton judgment. The civil servants, unfortunately, come into a good deal of adverse criticism, and it is good sometimes that we should get tributes from those who are in a position to know exactly what the civil servants have done in certain respects. The payment of 21,000 claims within four days 1989 is certainly a record of work of which any Department might be proud.
I understand that the Postmaster-General's "push" in regard to telephone development has resulted in a great extension of the work and that he is buying in advance the materials necessary in order to anticipate the growth in this particular Department. This is an instance of business efficiency on which we may congratulate the right hon. Gentleman. At the same time we may extend our congratulations in respect of the service that is being rendered to the community. With respect to wireless broadcasting, the Noble Lord said that the whole of the amount in the Estimate is to be handed over to the British Broadcasting Company and that it has not cost the country one farthing. I demur slightly to that statement. It does not mean that we pay it out directly in the sense that the State may be losing a certain amount of money, but we ought to have further information as to the expenditure of this particular company.
We are asked to vote £223,000 under this particular head to a company financed by Parliament and placed in a specially privileged position. We are faced with a position to-night in which we are called upon to vote this very large sum of money, although we really have no knowledge how the money is being expended, and we have no check upon it. The Post Office and other Departments have to come to the House and give very detailed statements of their administration and their estimates, and the Post Office has to give detailed statements of its commercial accounts, but the British Broadcasting Company is not called upon to do anything of the sort, although they have the support and the guarantee of the State behind them, and they have the machinery of the State behind them, to a large extent, in collecting their revenue. Therefore, we ought to have further information so that we may be put into the position of having some knowledge how the money is being expended, whether it is being expended wisely and whether the existing conditions should be allowed to continue.
Rightly or wrongly, there is an idea that extravagance prevails. One does admire to a great extent the work which 1990 has been done by the British Broadcasting Company, and the way in which they have endeavoured to meet public needs. Nevertheless, a feeling is growing up in certain quarters that the business is being run extravagantly and that the money is not being expended along the most economic lines. I wonder whether the Noble Lord or the Postmaster-General will he in a position to give the Committee some further details as to how the money is expended by the British Broadcasting Company, what relations exist between the Post Office and the British Broadcasting Company, whether the Post Office have access to the books and the items of expenditure, whether they are passed under public audit and whether the Committee can be assured that the money is being expended in the wisest possible manner.
With respect to Civil Pay (Arrears), I gathered from the Noble Lord that there are two or three items under this head. One is known as the Sutton judgment and the paying out of claims which have been judged as coming under that decision of the Court. Then there are cases which have been set aside for decision as to whether or not they fall within the ambit of the Sutton judgment. The Committee would like to know whether we have reached finality in that respect. I think the Noble Lord said that we had.

§ Lord WOLMER
Yes.

§ Mr. AMMON
The Noble Lord spoke only for the Post Office in that particular connection.

§ Viscount WOLMER
indicated assent.

§ Mr. AMMON
Are there any other cases, marginal cases, still open for interpretation, or have they all been settled and is the Treasury alone going to have the last word in these particular matters? There is a further class of case which comes outside the Sutton judgment, known as the earmarked appointment case, affecting those whose promotion was interrupted by military service.
Could we have any further information as to the miscellaneous sources from which the Postmaster-General hopes to get further income? I should also like to know to what extent he gets reimbursement for services rendered to the Ministry of Health in connection with the new Pensions Act. Is the payment he receives 1991 from that source only for the amount of stuff he carries through the post, or does he get any consideration for the extra staffing, in counter clerks, and otherwise, which has become necessary in order to meet this extra work? Every fresh piece of social legislation imposes burdens on the right hon. Gentleman's Department, and the Post Office has to carry out the work in some way or another. The Committee ought to know, in going into these accounts, whether the Post Office is getting proper reimbursement for the whole service it renders to Government Departments, and not only for the postage materials which are being carried.

§ Mr. MACQUISTEN
I should like to draw attention to the question of telegraphs and telephones. No greater calamity ever befell the country than the taking over of the telegraphs and telephones by the State. [HON. MEMBERS: "Question!"] There is no doubt about it. Both these services were paying enterprises until the dead hand of the State was laid upon them. The telegraphs were taken over because they were supposed to cut into Post Office monopoly.

§ Miss WILKINSON
On a point of Order. Is the hon. and learned Member in order in discussing the question of nationalisation upon this Vote?

§ The CHAIRMAN
Certainly not. I cannot appreciate the hon. and learned Member's point yet.

§ Mr. MACQUISTEN
The hon. Member for East Middlesbrough (Miss Wilkinson) is not right. I am not discussing the question of nationalisation in any shape or form. I am making some comments upon the expense of running the Post Office telegraphs and telephones.

§ The CHAIRMAN
To which of these items does the hon. and learned Member connect his argument?

§ Mr. MACQUISTEN
To Item K, Engineering Materials. Those are very expensive materials. They are far too expensive. In 1922 I discovered one man who was having a telephone put in by the engineering department, and it took 11 men to put in that one telephone. The Postmaster-General cannot be told too often of such cases.

§ The CHAIRMAN
I understand the hon. and learned Member refers to Item K, which relates to Additional provision due to heavy purchases of ducts and cable for telephone development which will not be issued to works within the financial year, but when issued will be chargeable to the Telephone Loan; and to deliveries by contractors maturing for payment somewhat earlier than was expected. The amount of labour employed on the actual setting up of wires and posts appears not to be covered by this item.

§ Mr. MACQUISTEN
But it is the cost of material. I will show how I can link the item up with my statement. I have had a long correspondence with the Postmaster-General as to the possibility of connecting up the large island of Islay in Argyllshire, which yields a revenue equal to more than the whole of the Post Office surplus.

§ The CHAIRMAN
The hon. and learned Gentleman has been long enough in this House to know the very narrow limits within which discussion on Supplementary Estimates has to be conducted. This is an item for the purchase of materials and it has nothing whatever to do with the actual carrying out of work and nothing whatever to do with Argyllshire. I am, therefore, afraid that the hon. and learned Member must defer his argument until the main Post Office Estimates are reached.

§ Mr. MACQUISTEN
I am assured that it is the cost of material for making this submarine cable to the island that makes the Postmaster-General demand from my constituency a guarantee of £2,300 a year before he will give them telephone facilities. There must be far too much paid for material to contractors; otherwise it would not cost so much, and this important and fertile island, which yields so much revenue, would not be cut off from the mainland.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
I am sure that the Committee will sympathise with the inhabitants of the beautiful island of Islay in the harsh way they are being treated by the Post Office The hon. and learned Member did not remark on the island's natural beauty, and spoke only of its fertility. I know it also, and its beauty is a most remark able feature about it. I do not propose to follow the hon. and learned Member in that matter, in his premises or his deductions. 1993 I wish to raise a matter about the item under Sub-head P, "Wireless Broadcasting." The amount here is £223,000, apparently because the number of licences has been more than was anticipated For issuing a licence the Post master-General charges 2s, ed., and 7s. 6d. goes to the British Broadcasting Company. After a certain number of licences have been issued there is a reduction. The charge of 2s. 6d. by the Postmaster-General on a 10s. licence is preposterous, and the Post Office must be making an enormous profit. In the first place the charge has not been authorised by this House; it has not been preceded by the ordinary Financial Resolution. How much do the Post Office authorities reckon that it costs them to issue these licences over the counter? It is no more trouble to issue a wireless licence than to issue a game licence or a gun licence or a dog licence. I am told that the bookkeeping charges for similar work by commercial firms is less than one shilling per cent., and that they would be glad to do the Stork for that charge and would make a profit on it.
How much profit is the Post Office making on the 2s. 6d? At what figure do they reckon the charge for the extra staff that is needed for issuing these licences'? What are the overhead charges? The greater part of this 2s. 6d. should be clear profit for the State. In that case it is a tax on the subject, and has not been approved by the House, and is illegal. The Post Office may say that they provide certain services. What are the services that they provide for 2s. 6d., compared with the services that the British Broadcasting Company has to provide for the 7s. 6d? The Company has to erect broadcasting stations, to supply programmes, to pay the artists, to pay for the services of the Savoy Band or its successor. I was talking the other night to a gentleman who lives in Warsaw. He said that every night of his life he heard the Savoy Band broadcast from the station in London, and he thought it very remarkable. I, too, think it is remarkable. All this sort of thing has to be provided by the Company, as well as the "bright talks," including semi-political addresses by the President of the Board of Trade—

§ The CHAIRMAN
Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman propose to give a, general lecture?

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
No, I was drawing the attention of the Committee to the tremendous lot that is expected for the 7s. 6d. taken by the British Broadcasting Company, and to the fact that the Postmaster-General charges 2s. 6d, for simply issuing a licence. The Postmaster-General may say, "But I relay the programmes along my telephone wires." Yes, he does, at an hour when the wires are not very much in use; and extremely badly they are relaid. The telephone wires are suitable for broadcasting talks and speeches but not for broadcasting music; the oscillations are not sufficient in the present wires. The situation will have to be faced presently. If the Postmaster-General is to give value for the money that he retains he must lay down special telephone wires, and these, incidentally, will be of much more value for long distance telephone talks. In case he makes that excuse I would point out that not one penny extra has he spent for telephone relaying; he has not laid down a single wire in addition, and the service that he gives is inadequate and not up to the standard that the public has a, right to expect. That is the case which I make, and I think we are entitled to some explanation of the matter. The last point I want to make on this very large item of £223,000 is one worth discussing. The right, hon. Gentleman ought to charge much less for issuing licences and allow more money to go to the British Broadcasting Company.

HON. MEMBERS
No, no!

§ The CHAIRMAN
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is now discussing the merits of the original agreement between the Post Office and the British Broadcasting Company. This particular item in the Estimates, I understand, represents an automatic increase owing to further licences having been issued. It appears to me that the only matter for discussion is whether the figures are accurate and whether there is any particular reason to account for this increase, or whether the Post Office Might to have foreseen it. I understand that there is no increased charge at all, but that this has to be brought into account because the receipts have already been surrendered to the Exchequer. It is purely an accounting point, and policy cannot come into the question.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
I will not pursue the subject, except to correct what I said just now. The profits of the British Broadcasting Company are limited, and therefore the extra money would go to the public. That is why I mentioned the matter. It is said that the additional payment is more than balanced by the increase in licence fees. It will be even more profitable if the cost off issuing these licences was anything compared with what we would expect the ordinary overhead charges of a comparative business to be.

§ Commander FANSHAWE
I was very pleased to hear the Assistant Postmaster-General speak about the development of the telephone service, and of the material provided under Item K for that purpose. I see in this item that ducts are mentioned. If ducts are being used for underground cables will the Postmaster-General give his attention particularly to the telephone service in the West of Scotland in this respect?

§ The CHAIRMAN
I have already ruled out Argyllshire, and I must rule out the West of Scotland, too.

§ Commander FANSHAWE
I wish to raise the point, particularly, about the underground lines. With this development going on, I hope that the Postmaster-General will cast his eye towards us and not leave us out of his reckoning.

§ Mr. W. BAKER
So far as an opening statement on Supplementary Estimates is concerned, we appear to be improving as we go on. Certainly the opening statement of the Noble Lord was the most informative of any that we have received during the present Session. I was very sorry to hear him say that practically all the claims have been met, not because I regret that they are paid, but because I fear it is true to say that a number of cases are still outstanding, and the difficulties in these outstanding cases are due to points of interpretation. I need hardly remind the Postmaster-General that the litigation with regard to these cases has been going on over a long series of years, and that there is a great deal of irritation caused by the delays on points of interpretation. I ask him to use every ounce of his influence with the Treasury to secure a very early settlement.
1996 6.0 P.M.
Will the Postmaster-General give us some information as to the remuneration received by the Post Office and referred to as "receipts from miscellaneous sources" under Appropriations-in-Aid? I should be inclined to say that the Post Office is underpaid, or unpaid, for many of the very important services that the Department is called upon to undertake in these days. There are such matters as health insurance unemployment insurance. War Savings Certificates, licences of various kinds and old age pensions. I should welcome an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that he will make careful inquiry as to the relations between the Post Office and the other Departments in regard to remuneration. Another point concerning the work done for other Departments, in connection with the contributory pensions scheme, is that this new legislation has made a tremendous increase in the work of the Post Office. The general increase I am assured, taking the year 1923–24 and comparing it with 1914 and rendering it in terms of finance, includes £64,000,000 for work concerning War pensions and allowances, £85,000,000 in so far as War Savings Certificates are concerned, and £9,000,000 in connection with War Loan dividends. That is in addition to the other great increases which have taken place in difficult and specialised work. I hope the Postmaster-General will pay special attention to the conditions of service of the men and women who are constantly called upon to undertake these new and difficult forms of work, and I trust he will see that their services are recompensed on something like an adequate scale. I am particularly anxious to see the Post Office go further in the matter of telephone development. I may illustrate my point of view by relating an experience of my own during a recent visit to South Africa. I stayed at a very isolated sugar plantation and I was surprised to find that the South African Government were able to supply the owner of that plantation with a telephone at an annual rent of £8 per year. I was informed that this was made possible by a special grant from the Government for the development of the rural telephone service.

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain FitzRoy)
On the particular item we are coasidering questions of local telephones cannot be discussed.

§ Mr. BAKER
With all respect I submit that under the heading of "Engineering Materials" it is definitely stated that additional provision is being made for telephone development, and in view of the modern methods of the Post Office telephone development is not confined to the City of London and other large centres.

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
That item only refers to development which has already taken place and not to fresh development.

§ Mr. BAKER
Again with respect, I submit that the development cannot have taken place, otherwise the material would have been put to use, but having regard to your ruling, Sir, I will leave the point on this occasion. There is also the question of the relation between the Post Office and the. British Broadcasting Company I regret that a policy of secrecy has been followed with regard to the British Broadcasting Company's administration, especially as regards expenditure on salaries and similar items, and I wish to reinforce the appeal made by the hon. Member for Camberwell (Mr. Ammon).

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
The hon. Member is now going into the question of the policy of the British Broadcasting Company, but the only question which arises on this Vote is in regard to the accounting in connection with this sum of money.

§ Mr. BAKER
I submit that a previous speaker was permitted to cover all this ground—[HON. MEMBERS: "No"]—and the allocation of the money received by the Postmaster-General appears to be a proper matter for discussion and criticism.

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
It is quite obvious that the Committee cannot go into a question of policy on an item of this sort.

§ Mr. BAKER
I submit that supplementary estimates serve a particularly useful purpose in so far as they make possible a discussion of details which is not possible on the main Estimate. On the main Estimate discussion usually 1998 takes the form of a full dress Debate, and it is not possible in those circum stances to review points of detail. However, I am anxious not to come into conflict with the Chair or with the Committee, and I leave this question of the British Broadcasting Company the more readily as I fervently hope we shall not be troubled with that institution very much longer. I notice that as the authority responsible for collecting the cost of wireless licences the Post master-General has been pursing a policy of prosecution during recent weeks and I wish to know how many persons have been prosecuted for failing to take out wireless licences? I should also like to know if I am mistaken in the impression that the poorer districts of London have been specially selected for these prosecutions. It may be accidental, but the prosecutions which have come under my notice relate to places like the East End of London where the parsons concerned would appear to have some justification, on economic grounds, for failing to comply with the law in this respect. I appeal for even-handed treatment in this matter, and if prosecutions are to take place they should take place in the districts inhabited by more comfortably placed classes as well as in the poorer working-class quarters.

§ Sir MALCOLM MACNAGHTEN
If it is in Order to do so, I desire to make some comment on Item K. Under Item K we are asked to vote £190,000 for a telephone development grant which will not be issued to works within the financial year. The criticism I should like to make upon that point—if I am in order—is that this grant should be issued for works within the financial year. The ground on which I make that criticism is that there has been considerable delay in telephone development, and the mischief which we have suffered in this connection might be remedied if this grant were brought into use more speedily. I am very anxious not to offend against the Rules of Debate in Committee, but I thought it was legitimate to suggest that things would be better if this grant came into operation more promptly. If I were in order in doing so, I would also submit that greater promptitude in telephone development would make it quite possible to supply the customers of the Post Office at a cheaper rate, and that in my constituency of Londonderry the 1999 farming part of the population would be immensely benefited—and I hope the Post Office themselves would also derive great benefit—if farmers could be supplied with telephones at a rate which they can afford to pay. If it is not in order, however, I will not make the remark.

§ Mr. RHYS DAVIES
The point that I desire to raise may appear to the Postmaster-General to be a very small one, but it is very important to those who are concerned with the widows' pension scheme. This sum comes into an Estimate—either a main Estimate or a Supplementary Vote—for the first time, as "£80,000 appropriation in aid"—that being the sum which has apparently been received by the Post Office already on account from the pensions fund established under the widows' pensions scheme. I wish to know if an agreement has now been reached between the Minister of Health and the Postmaster-General as to the percentage to be paid from the widows' pension funds to the Post Office for work performed in paying out pensions. I do not think that there is any reason to call for an increased payment to the Post Office on account of the sale of stamps on this score, because the total number of stamps sold will almost certainly be reduced by reason of the fact that the age limit of the insured will in future be 65 and not 70. The total number of stamps to be sold by the Post Office consequent on the introduction of the scheme will therefore be reduced and there cannot be an increase of work on account of the sale of stamps. The value of each stamp has, of course, been increased, but not the total number. I ask, therefore, what is the percentage basis of payment from the widows' pensions fund to the Post Office on account of the payment of pensions? I ought to add, that so far as I can gather, the payment of these pensions by the Post Office has been made very promptly indeed, and I have heard no complaint, on that score. The Post Office secures a warrant from the Ministry of Health to pay the pension and all the Post Office does is to pay the money; the determination of the award of the pension rests with the Ministry of Health.
I desire to make just one observation on the sum of £223,000 touched upon by the hon. and gallant Member for Central 2000 Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy). It was very refreshing to hear a dissertation from him on music, and I hope we shall now see more harmony in the Liberal party in consequence. When I complained on one occasion that the transmission of B.B.C. music was not good I was told I ought to buy a new wireless set, and I am not sure whether the same observation would apply to the hon. and gallant Gentleman. It is not, however, in order to dwell upon this item; but I feel sure the Postmaster-General will appreciate how important it is to those who administer the Widows' Pensions Scheme to know what is the exact percentage due to the Post Office for paying out widows' pensions and children's allowances.

§ Major CRAWFURD
I gather from the rulings which have been given from the Chair that Item P, dealing with wireless broadcasting, can only be dealt with on an accounting basis, and I hope to confine myself within the limits which have been laid down. There are two factors in this sum—the additional provision required for the British Broadcasting Company, which will be balanced by receipts from licences. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) drew attention to the costs of administration in respect of the amount which the Government receives from these licences, and I desire to put some questions to the right hon. Gentleman based on figures taken from the Post Office accounts. I find in the Post Office Commercial Accounts that the total sum received for licences issued to the public was £599,261, and I want to ask if the right hon. Gentleman can tell me if there is any improvement on the state of things disclosed by the figures which I will quote.

§ The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir William Mitchell-Thomson)
Is the hon. and gallant Member quoting the figures for 1924–25?

§ Major CRAWFURD
Yes, and I want to ask if the right hon. Gentleman can tell me that the concluding figure which I shall give will be improved upon by the accounts of which this Supplementary Estimate is a part. The total for that year received was about £600,000, as I have said. The Government's share of licences was £127,000, and there is then 2001 an item "Interest on Balance, £17,000," which is not explained, leaving the total Government receipts at £144,600. That is what the Goverment actually had, and then the total charges and expenses are £90,310, leaving a surplus to the Government of £54,346. On the total figure of £600,000 received for licences, a large proportion of which is paid over, the figure of expenses, £90,000, works out at 1s. 6d. per licence, or 15 per cent., for adminisirntion of the total amount received; if you take the total amount that remained over to the Government, the expense is more than 100 per cent. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to tell us the reason for this, since apparently the issue of these licences is only an accounting matter, and if there has been any improvement in the current year.

§ Sir FRANK NELSON
One hon. Member asked the Postmaster-General for so rte information as to prosecutions in regard to wireless sets for which licences have not been taken out. I hope my right hon. Friend will take no official cognisance of what I have to tell him, which is that I discovered the other day that. I have had a wireless set for over nine months without taking out any licence at all I rise to ask what principle the Post Office act upon in discovering who has and who has not a licence, and what is the cost of arty service of inspectors to go round in order to find out these facts. I can see that in any house that has an aerial it is easy for someone to say, "Here is a wireless set," and to go in and find out if there is a licence, but now, I am told, new sets are coming in for which no aerial is necessary at all. In fact, I am in treaty—and here again I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to take no official cognisance of what I am saying—to buy one of these new sets for which no aerial is necessary. Therefore, how will it be possible for the right hon. Gentleman's Department to find out whether or not I have a licence?
I hope I am as much an adherent of economy as any hon. Member in the House. In fact, so insistent apparently do some of my constituents think I am on economy that I had a deputation the other day from some Post Office workers in my own constituency, and I was con siderably impressed by the statement they put in front of me to the effect that not only was their work in the payment out of widows' pensions greatly increased, but 2002 their responsibility was also increased. Therefore, I wish to ask my right hon. Friend whether he has not under consideration any slight increase in the emoluments of those Post Office servants who are more especially concerned in the payment out of the large sums of money under the Widows' Pensions Act, having regard to the extra amount of work and responsibility that are thrown upon them.

§ Mr. SHORT
I should like the Postmaster-General to explain what is the exact relationship of the Post Office and the Treasury in connection with the payment of these arrears and outstanding claims under Item Q. There were a number of civil servants who entered the Army voluntarily, but who did not secure-the permission of their Departmental chiefs, and I asked the question some time ago of the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the present Minister of Agriculture, who led me, I think unintentionally, to believe that these volunteers would be brought within the provisions of what are now known as the Sutton and later judgments. I understand, on the other hand, from further information, that these men will be excluded, and I should like the Postmaster-General to say whether his Department or the Treasury is the determining factor in so far as the interpretation of these judgments is concerned. I can assure him that there is a great deal of anxiety in many quarters respecting the exclusion of men who believe that they have a legitimate claim arising out of these judgments.
In the second place, I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, under Item K, what proportion of this expenditure of £190,000 is to be made for the provision of automatic telephones, and, in connection with that matter, if there is any expenditure, what displacement of labour takes place in consequence of the provision of automatic telephones as distinct from the present system. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can say to what extent the question of the provision of automatic telephones is affected by this Vote. Finally, I come to the question of wireless broadcasting, and I think we are entitled to a little more elucidation and fuller information respecting the relationship of his Department with the British Broadcasting Company, as to what control exists, and what power his Department possesses over the programmes which are circulated by the British Broadcasting 2003 Company. The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but I would remind him that when citizens of this country go to a post office for a licence, they do not go merely for the purpose of paying 10s. to him, or 2s. 6d. to him and 7s. 6d. to the company, but they go to secure some enjoyment from the programmes which are circulated by the company.

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
This has nothing to do with the question we are discussing. I have already explained that this particular item is only a matter of accounting.

§ Mr. SHORT
This accounting arises entirely out of the fact that members of the community go to purchase a licence, in consequence of which I understand that 7s. 6d. is handed over to the British Broadcasting Company and 2s. 6d. goes into the coffers of the Post Office authorities. I submit, with all due respect, that the only reason why we purchase licences is to secure some musical or other entertainment through the British Broadcasting Company, and if it were not for that fact, of course, we should not purchase these licences. I think it is only right that the Post Office should have some authority in connection with the British Broadcasting Company and the programmes they provide. I regard these programmes in many cases as innocuous inanities, suitable only for invalids and imbeciles!

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
That may or may not be in order on the main Estimate—I am not prepared to say at the moment—but it certainly is not in order on this Vote.

§ Mr. SHORT
I have only to accept your ruling, Captain FitzRoy, but I must confess my regret that it is not possible for us to pursue this matter, as I think a great measure of public opinion is being generated in opposition to the programmes of the British Broadcasting Company, but I shall content myself with having said what I have.

§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON
I have to thank the Committee for the way in which they have received this Estimate. At the same time, I have to confess that I am in some difficulty in replying, because a number of my colleagues have put questions to me, and then have discovered that they had strayed beyond 2004 the confines of order, and I am somewhat apprehensive lest I may incur the same reproach myself, but I will do my best to avoid it. I have been asked some questions with regard to the position of the British Broadcasting Company, and the relations between the Company and the Government, and the State generally, to which it is not in order for me to reply, but, if it were in order, I should ask the Committee to excuse me from replying, because the Committee may be aware, and very probably are, that at this moment the whole question of the future control of broadcasting in this country is being examined by a very strong Committee, under the chairmanship of Lord Crawford. I am told the Committee have finished their labours, and are now engaged in preparing their Report, and I believe they hope to present their Report some time in the beginning of next month.
After the Report is received and considered by the Government, it will then be a question, doubtless, either of representing to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House that an opportunity should be given for discussing the Report or, alternatively, if legislation be required—and personally I should think it would be very probable that legislation will be required—in consequence of the Report, then, of course, we shall have the fullest opportunity of discussing the question. Therefore, under any circumstances, I should ask the Committee to excuse me from discussing this question at the present moment, but perhaps I may be allowed just to repudiate in one sentence an aspersion that was cast by the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), who complained that some unsatisfactory broadcasting at the present moment was due to faulty relaying by the Post Office telephone wires. I have had no complaint whatever from the British Broadcasting Company in regard to that matter, and I am sorry the hon. and gallant Gentleman is not now present to hear that.
I was asked some questions about the Sutton Judgment. The claims presented under the Sutton Judgment and the post-Sutton Judgment are practically at an end now. There is no outstanding class of claims, but there are quite a number 2005 of smaller outstanding individual oases, in which the facts are obscure Relatively speaking, however, the amount outstanding is comparatively insignificant. A number of hon. Members asked me questions about the item which appears among the appropriations-in-aid relating to repayment of the pensions accounts by the Ministry of Health.

§ Mr. SHORT
Before the right hon. Gentleman passes to that matter, do I understand that all outstanding claims in connection with Civil Pay Arrears, that is, claims which up to the moment are not admitted, have been ruled out entirely, and if so, have they been ruled out by his Department or the Treasury?

§ Sir W. MITCHELL - THOMSON
Broadly speaking, all claims have been paid up which are founded on the Sutton or post-Sutton Judgments. I was proceeding to say something about relations with the Ministry of Health, and the payments which appear in this Vote. That is an interesting point, and it is a new point. Hitherto, in regard to all other services practically performed by the Post Office for other Departments, credit has been given to the Post Office, and it has been duly shown in the commercial accounts, but no credit has been given in the Appropriation Accounts, which are purely cash accounts. However, when the Pensions Act was being passed, arrangements were specially made that this credit should be made by payment to the Post Office, and should appear in the Appropriation Accounts.

§ Mr. AMMON
That is to say, you get payment for services rendered, in addition to the ordinary postal payment?

§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON
We get payment for actual services rendered. The actual amount paid in the three months will be about £50,000. What it will be for the full year it is a little difficult to say yet, but it will be something between £150,000 and £200,000. It depends on what the work turns out to be. That, I think, is a satisfactory depaiture, because it attempts for the first time to reflect in the Apropriation Account what is properly reflected in the Post Office accounts, and there is here some relation between the services rendered by the Post Office and its fiscal accounts.
2006 Then I am asked about wireless prosecutions. It is quite true that there has been, since the House gave me power under the Wireless Act, progressive and steady activity in the way of prosecuting infringers, and I am glad to say with the most satisfactory results to the general revenue. There have been 49 prosecutions ordered, 43 cases have been actually heard, and 42 of those cases have been successful. The hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. W. Baker) feared that something less than even-handed treatment may have been meted out in selected areas. I can assure him that is not the fact. The areas would naturally be selected from the point of view of giving warning, and as far as possible they have been all up and down the country. One of the first prosecutions was in my constituency, and the one which came next was in my Noble Friend's constituency. Then I was asked a question about the cost of administration. The hon. Member is quite right. The figures he gave are approximately correct—some wnere between 1s. 3d. and 1s. 6d. The hon. Gentleman is wrong, of course, in thinking that represents the work done over the counter. It represents a great, deal more than that It represents, so far as actual counter work is concerned such things as sending out renewal warnings every year. But it also includes, of course, all the rest of the machinery, accounting, prosecutions, and the inspection about which the hon. Member for the Stroud Division (Sir F. Nelson) invited me to give some details.

§ Sir F. NELSON
If it is not disclosing official secrets, will the right hon. Gentleman disclose the methods of inspection?

§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON
I am afraid I must decline.

§ Major CRAWFURD
I ought to have drawn the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that in the £90,000 expenses, there is an item of £50,000 under the issue of broadcasting licences.

§ Sir W. MITCHELL - THOMSON
Roughly speaking, something between 1s. 1d. and 1s. 2d. is the actual counter work, the renewal arrangements and the general administration including certain protective measures. On the whole, and as far as I have been able to go into it myself, I do not think there is much 2007 prospect of getting down the expenditure, which, I think, on the whole, is a reasonable expenditure. It may be that as things go on, and perhaps there is more general readiness in payment evinced by some people, we shall be able to get the amount down. A great deal depends on that. Perhaps in a short time we shall do it, but at present I do not see much prospect of it. Then I was asked a question about sub-head K, "Engineering Materials." As my Noble Friend has already explained, it is a purely temporary discrepancy between supply and demand, very largely because of the exceptionally bad weather which has prevailed during the last few weeks, which has prevented us getting on quite as fast with the actual work of laying the cables as could have been expected. And therefore, the cables have not yet been charged to the capital account. I was asked whether any automatics were included in the Vote. There is actually comprised in that figure no automatic machinery.

§ Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER
Will the right hon. Gentleman make one point clear as to the £80,000? Does the Ministry of Health pay a percentage to the Post Office on the total amount of pension paid away, or does the Post Office pay on the time taken up for the work done?

§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON
The latter.

§ Lieut.-Commander BURNEY
With regard to the engineering materials, can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he is not buying any foreign materials? Secondly, would it be correct to say that if the telephone loan had been issued this Supplementary Estimate would not have been required, and in that connection can he say when the telephone loan will be issued, and as a corollary to that, can he give an assurance that, subject to the issue of this loan no further Votes will be required from the House in this connection? The only other point is in regard to the Vote of £600,000. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the whole of the legal costs of the Sutton Judgment have already been included in the Vote?

§ Mr. CONNOLLY
There is one question I would like to put to the Post-master-General 2008 on a matter that has been dealt with in the House at Question Time once or twice with regard to the cables, ducts, etc., that we have received at various times from Germany. In these days, we are all urging upon each other the necessity to get everything we possibly can at home. I see the right hon. Gentleman is shaking his head. I am only taking his own answers in this House, and the explanation he has given is that all these things are of a special nature, or of a special efficiency, and that they are not being received in very large quantities.

§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON
No; what I said was one particular set had been bought for experimental purposes.

§ Mr. CONNOLLY
But have you not given replies in the House with regard to the main cables?

§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON
The same applies to them.

§ Mr. CONNOLLY
I think the fullest information ought to be given at this stage. At Question Time we can only deal with things in a perfunctory way, and at this stage of the Estimates we ought to have the fullest information with regard to anything we get from Germany.

§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON
I should be more than happy to give the information. In the first place, as regards the particular things he mentioned, neither is included in the Vote, nor is there anything in the expenditure under sub-head K which includes any foreign material.

§ Mr. CONNOLLY
Is it not correct to say that, so far as concerns a very large telephone exchange in the north, some of the main cables have been bought from Germany? If that be so, is not this the proper time to have a thorough explanation of it? Is that on account of the efficiency or because patent rights arise? I would like to know, and I think the Committee are entitled to know the full facts before passing these Votes.

Commander C. WILLIAMS
I am very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say the material comes entirely from our own country. I think all of us are glad of that. With regard to the Civil Pay Arrears, it is not very pleasant for the taxpayer to 2009 have to pay the £600,000. We do not mind so much if it really goes to those doing real, useful work in the Post Office, but. I see at the end of the paragraph that there has been a certain number of cases admitted since the Estimate came in, and I would like to know what percentage of the £600,000 actually went in salaries, and what percentage went in legal fees, if any. The other point I wish to raise is in connection with ducts and cables. I would like to know if the right hon. Gentleman can tell us what amount of wastage there is in these materials between the time they actually come to land and the time they become chargeable for telephone work, because there is always a considerable wastage, and I think we might have some sort of estimate of that wastage. The other point which really interested me is the sentence in Sub-head K: and to deliveries by contractors maturing for payment somewhat earlier than was excepted. May I ask if one of those new contracts which are maturing somewhat earlier than was expected is a contract for a very large number, we will say, of penny stamps in lieu of three-halfpenny stamps?

§ Mr. SCRYMGEOUR
May I ask whether it could not now be arranged that a station which is not recognised as a substation, but is one of the offices under the General Post Office of Dundee, should not be classified?

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
This particular item does not come under the present. Vote.

§ Mr. SCRYMGEOUR
I should like to ask in regard to the advertising of intoxicants in the stamp albums. Is it in order to mention that matter?

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
No, the hon. Member is not in order.

§ Mr. SCRYMGEOUR
I feel the matter is a most important one.

§ Mr. KELLY
I wanted to raise one point in regard to Sub-head K, which deals with engineering materials, and the provision due to heavy purchases of ducts and cable for telephone development. I suppose that under that head of "Cable" there is included telephone wire? I am not quite sure how narrow is the official interpretation of the word '' Cable." The hon. Member who spoke 2010 from the Back Benches on the other side expressed appreciation that some of this had been purchased in this country. I want, however, to be quite satisfied that trade union conditions are operating in the works where this cable and telephone wire is manufactured. There are some works from which there has been purchased both cable and telephone wire, in Surrey and in North-West London I am quite sure that these particular firms are not obeying the conditions that operate in the industry generally, and which are agreed upon by the Cable Trade Joint Industrial Council. I hope the Post Office will be a little more careful as to whom it gives out its orders, and, even if purchased at a little advance, to see that trade union conditions operate. I am not permitted, I take it, in view of your ruling, Captain FitzRoy, that there is under this heading no purchases abroad mentioned, to deal with that matter? I shall have to wait until the main Estimate conies along.
In regard to civil pay under the Sutton Judgment, I am not at all sure that the whole of the cases are in this figure. We have discovered that not only in the present Department, but in other Departments, there are many people who are discovering that they come under it. I am not asking the right hon. Gentleman to be responsible for other Departments, but I really should like an answer to the question as to whether the legal costs are included in this, or whether this is the sum which is going to the individuals concerned? I hope the Post Office, no matter who is in charge, will not have recourse to the Law Courts to decide wages questions. There are one or two other matters with which I should like to deal, but for the moment I would ask some explanation as to whether the Post Office have satisfied themselves as to the conditions under which the cable and wire is made and whether the whole of the money in the Vote is going to those who are entitled to it under the Sutton Judgment?

§ Viscount WOLMER
In respect to the question of the Sutton Judgment, the money is required simply for the purpose of paying it to those who are entitled to it under the law. In respect to the other question put, the money is issued to the Post Office by the National Debt. Commissioners as and when it is asked for. The hon. Gentleman also raised the question 2011 about the rate of wages paid in certain cable works. I can assure him that if he will bring clear evidence to the notice of the Postmaster-General or myself that the Fair Wages Resolution is not being observed in any works we shall most certainly go into the matter.

§ Mr. CONNOLLY
I put a point or two to the hon. Gentleman.

§ Viscount WOLMER
What the hon. Member has in mind, I think, is the fact that there has been one cable purchased from Germany for the Post Office for experimental purposes. It is only a very small percentage of these purchases that are not British-made goods. Ninety-nine-and-a-half per cent. of Post Office purchases are British-made; but we have to buy foreign inventions to test them.