HC Deb 17 February 1926 vol 191 cc1935-8
Mr. THURTLE

I desire to ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, as to the correct procedure to be adopted in order to challenge the validity of a vote that an hon. Member of this House may give, on the ground of private interest. According to the Rule 141 of the Manual of Procedure A member may not vote on any question in which he has a direct pecuniary interest. If he votes on such a question his vote may, on Motion, be disallowed. The point I wish to pot is this: Whether such a Motion, challenging the validity of a vote, has to be put down immediately after the Division has taken place, or whether it may be put down at some suosequent time?

Mr. SPEAKER

Any point of the sort that is taken must be taken immediately after the vote is given, whether in Committee or in the House, whichever the case may be.

Mr. THURTLE

Further, Sir, may I submit to you that there is no Standing Order governing the matter. The Select Committee of 1896 in this matter of Members of Parliament's personal interest recommended an effective Standing Order should be adopted. Such Standing Order never has been adopted by this House. If present procedure is peisisted in it really takes, away the effective right of a Member of this House to challenge the validity of a vote, because it is not competent for Members to decide immediately after a Division whether a Member has so voted or not. It is not until a Member has had time to peruse the Division Lists that he can discover how a vote has been given.

Mr. SPEAKER

In the absence of a Standing Order, we are governed by the general practice of the House. That practice is quite clear, It is that the challenge to a vote given in a particular case must be made immediately following the division in which the member has voted.

Mr. BUCHANAN

On that point, Mr. Speaker. How is an hon. Member to know—what method can he take to know—how another member has voted? It is impossible.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

On a point of Order. Is it not a fact that "immediately" is interpreted as being immediately on the publication of the Division List, and that that requires that it must be immediately on the publication of the list that the Motion has to be tabled? That, Sir, would meet the point raised, and would meet the common sense of the House.

Mr. SPEAKER

In the last 50 years it has always been held that complaint or challenge must be made immediately after the vote has been given in the Committee or in the House.

Mr. BUCHANAN

May I ask you, Sir, how a member is to know whether an hon. Member has voted or not? I quite see the point you are making, but we cannot tell how the vote has gone until we zee the Division List.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Is not "immediately" after the publication of the list, Sir?

Mr. SPEAKER

Immediately the vote has been given. I myself remember some years ago a case arising when it was suggested that a member had so voted, and the matter was then immediately raised.

Mr. THURTLE

I apologise for raising the point. Might I ask for your further guidance in this matter? Is it within the competence of the Chair to rule whether or not there is a direct pecuniary interest involved? I submit this point: whether the vote of a Member who is a director of a public company which receives a direct subsidy from the Government does or does not create a pecuniary interest in the particular subsidy?

Mr. DENNIS HERBERT

Before you reply, Mr. Speaker, may I—

Mr. SPEAKER

If the hon. Gentleman look at the ruling which has been given, he will see that a general rule is qualified by further words, that the matter is not one of general interest to His Majesty's Service, and not a matter of public policy. It is for the Chairman or the Speaker, whichever it may be, if the point be raised, to rule upon.

Mr. D. HERBERT

The hon. Member who put the question spoke of another hon. Member being a director. Is not the point this: Whether or not that director receives fees? Presumably, if he be a director not receiving fees, there is no interest which should make any obstacle as to his voting.

Mr. SPEAKER

I must be excused from giving any opinion on a general proposition like that. A matter of the sort will be dealt with if and when it may arise.