HC Deb 03 February 1926 vol 191 cc137-40
Mr. DUNNICO (by Private Notice)

asked the Minister of Health whether he has been informed of the serious state of affairs within the Consett area of the Lanchester Union; whether he is aware that some thousands of miners are unemployed, and having been adjudged to be taking part in an industrial dispute are denied unemployment payments on the one hand, and that the guardians, acting under the instructions of the Ministry of Health, are prohibited from giving Poor Law relief on the other; that these miners, being in a state of destitution, applied for indoor relief and that several hundreds of orders of admission have been issued; that; upon presenting themselves for admission, only sufficient accommodation was available for some 150; and in view of the situation thus created whether he is prepared to authorise outdoor relief being given to these miners and others now seeking admission, and at present in a state of destitution?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood)

My right hon. Friend is aware of the existence of an industrial dispute in the area mentioned and he has drawn the attention of the board of guardians to the legal limits on their power to grant out-relief in such circumstances which are laid down in the Judgment of the Court of Appeal in the case of Attorney-General versus Merthyr Tydfil Guardians (69 L.J. Ch. 299 [1900], 1 Ch. 516). He has no authority to vary the law upon this subject or to give such an instruction as the hon. Member suggests.

Mr. DUNNICO

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that orders of admission have been issued to these men because they are absolutely destitute? They have presented themselves with the orders for admission into the union workhouse but the accommodation is occupied. There is no room for them. In view of their having been granted orders and being unable to get admission, will the hon. Gentleman authorise payment of outdoor relief until such time as there is room?

Sir K. WOOD

I am afraid I cannot give that undertaking. So far as my Department is concerned, we have had no communication from the guardians on the matter, but I understand from inquiries I have made that they are taking steps to deal with the situation.

Mr. DUNNICO

Will the hon. Gentleman send a Commissioner up at once? Is he aware that, in addition to poverty, a large number of cases of smallpox have broken out in the neighbourhood, and the hospitals are crowded and there is no room to take them in, and this has aggravated the position?

Sir K. WOOD

If the guardians communicate with my Department we shall be glad to give them such advice as we can. This is the first I have heard of any question of smallpox. If the hon. Member will communicate with me I will see what steps can be taken.

Mr. THURTLE

Will the hon. Gentleman say what these destitute men who have been refused accommodation are to do?

Sir K. WOOD

I do not think I am called upon to make a statement of that kind. My Department have to carry out the law the same as anyone else.

Mr. LANSBURY

Is it not a fact that even under the Merthyr-Tydvil judgment it is the duty of guardians to relieve destitution, and if these men are in a destitute condition, and have been given orders for the workhouse, and there is no room, is it not the duty of his Department to see that the law is carried out and no one is left destitute?

Sir K. WOOD

No, I cannot agree with the statement of the law the hon. Member suggests. He knows very well the terms of the judgment.

Mr. LANSBURY

The hon. Gentleman must know that the Judges held that it was the duty of the guardians to relieve in a case of absolute destitution.

Sir K. WOOD

The hon. Member forgets another fact in the judgment, that there must be a provision that no work is available.

Mr. LANSBURY

This is rather an important matter. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a Statute law that gives every individual a statutory right to relief without any question of the cause that has brought him into that condition? Does he deny that?

Sir K. WOOD

It may be well so, but, as I understand it, the guardians in this case have issued orders. Whether they are proper ones or not, I cannot say. If they issue orders, it is the duty of the guardians to make provision. As I indicated in my main answer, I understand they are taking steps to that end.

Mr. LANSBURY

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his Department have again and again interfered where they consider the relief is too much? Do we understand they only exercise that right to bring down relief and not to prevent destitution?

Sir K. WOOD

All the endeavours of my Department are engaged in getting people to comply with the law of the land.