§ Brigadier-General CHARTERISI beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Licensing Act, 1921, in so far as it enables State management of certain districts in Scotland to be continued by the Secretary of State for Scotland, and to enact that the continuance of State control shall be subject to the local option of the district affected.This Bill should commend itself to the approbation of the whole House, imbued as the House is and as the Bill is with the root principles of all democratic government, namely, that the people should decide for themselves by their votes on matters concerning their government and control. The Bill goes back to Abe Licensing Act of 1921. By that Act the Board of Control for the liquor traffic was wound up, and the properties and powers of the Board were transferred to the Secretary of State in England, and, in the case of Scotland, to the Secretary for Scotland, now the Secretary of State for Scotland. Under the provisions of the Act of 1921 the power extended over only two small 1916 areas of Scotland—in the counties of Ross and Cromarty over three boroughs and several parishes, and in the county of Dumfries over the borough of Annan and several parishes in its vicinity. Carlisle comes under the provisions of the Bill in England, and other places. With England the Bill is not concerned. In Scotland we have already the principle of local option with regard to the control of the liquor traffic. We have established in Scotland a system which is working with reasonable success—the principle that the people there, at a poll taken for the purpose, do express their opinions on various matters concerning the liquor traffic.It is the extension of that principle that I am asking the House to apply to the question whether the control by the State through the Secretary of State for Scotland should be continued or should not be continued. At the present time a Commission appointed by the Government is sitting, and has been seeking to collect evidence. In the main, so far as I can get information, the evidence which they are trying to collect is evidence regarding the wishes of the people in the 1917 areas concerned. Of course, they are concerned with other matters as well, but the evidence which has been laid before them points to an endeavour to find out the wishes of the people in the areas affected. There is already in Scotland machinery existing for finding out far better than any Commission can find out by evidence what are the wishes of the people in the areas.
I have tried to think what might be the objections to the Bill. It may be said that the State is making money out of this traffic in liquor. I feel sure, if that be so, that; it will be equally important to hon. Members who share the opinion of the Noble Lady the Member for the Sutton Division of Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) and those who share the views of the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. Macquisten). It may be that those who oppose the Bill may consider that State control tends either to advance the principles of prohibition, on the one hand, or to defer any application of those principles, on the other hand. In actual fact, State control sets out to do neither, nor does it do either. In my view, this Bill does not affect the question whether or not prohibition is desirable or whether any restriction in the liquor traffic is desirable. That does not come within the purview of the Bill at all. The point of the Bill is that at one poll and one final poll the decision and wish of the people in the areas affected should be taken on the question whether they do or do not desire that State control should continue. May I say, as regards the area with which I am more immediately connected, the constituency of Dumfriesshire, that so far as I can see all parties, Liberal, Labour, and Unionist, are in thorough agreement with the principles of the Measure, and, judging by one's post bag and by two or three visits which I have paid to the constituency during the past fortnight, both the prohibition section, which is very strong in parts of the constituency, and those who are opposed to prohibition are equally of opinion that it is right and proper that the area itself should decide as to whether State control should continue or not.
After all, if it be an experiment, we have had six years of this control and it is time that some decision was come to on it. I submit that the proposal 1918 that a poll should be taken is more reasonable than one to abide by the recommendations of any Commission or Committee, even if we assume, and it is a big assumption, that that Commission or Committee would make a direct recommendation one way or the other. A Commission, as we know, is played upon by the various interests affected—the Trade, on the one hand, and Prohibition, on the other. All those are put to a far better test by an appeal, through a poll, to the wishes of the people than can be done by any Commission. I submit the Bill in the hope that it will meet with the approval of the whole House as regards the First Reading, and that the poll, if it be taken, will give a definite and final answer in those areas of Scotland as to whether national control is wanted or not. If the poll be in favour of national control, it will be an enormous argument in favour of extending the experiment, and, if it be against, it will bring those parts of Scotland back on to the same lines as all the rest of Scotland, will establish uniformity, and will in that way remove what is obviously an injustice to the areas concerned.
§ Mr. JOHNSTON rose—
§ Mr. SPEAKERDoes the hon. Member rise to oppose the Bill?
§ Mr. JOHNSTONI do. Doubtless, if the hon. and gallant Member carries the first Reading of his Bill to-day, we shall have before us the exact text of the Measure. But his speech this afternoon, so far as I can understand it, conflicts in some degree with his professions of democracy. He said, if I understood him aright, that there was to be one poll and one poll only, and that it would decide the matter for all time. If that be so, he is not widening the options. He is not extending the powers of democracy to settle in these particular areas exactly whether they want this particular form of dealing with the liquor traffic to continue or not; he is only having one poll, and, if there is to be only an option in one area for one vote and if that vote is to settle the whole question, then I submit he is taking a niggling way of amending the Scottish Temperance Act. I am in favour of giving the electors in any area any option which those electors want. I would give them every option—munici- 1919 pal ownership, improved public-houses, or anything else the people want, provided that you give them the right to vote the traffic out altogether. This Measure deals only with two small areas in Scotland, one in the south and the other in the north. It is only to be one poll, and it is curious—
§ Brigadier-General CHARTERISThis one poll will decide whether or not those two areas shall come into line with all the rest of Scotland and be subject to the same law as to local option.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONIn that case, why does not the hon. and gallant Member come forward with an Amendment -to the Scottish Temperance Act to extend the options under that Act to all the areas in the country? Why should he
§ deal only with two places where the State already has control; why should he give an option which may be used for winding up this control in those two areas and not give the same options as they have in the other areas of Scotland? For that reason alone, I submit that the House should not give a First Reading to a Measure which deals with a big question in a. niggling and undemocratic fashion.
§
Question put,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Licensing Act, 1921, in so far as it enables State management of certain districts in Scotland to be continued by the Secretary of State for Scotland, and to enact that the continuance of State control shall be subject to the local option of the district affected.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 104; Noes, 118.
1921| Division No. 545.] | AYES | [4.9 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton |
| Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Raine, W. |
| Barr, J. | Hanbury, C. | Ramsden, E. |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Berry, Sir George | Haslam, Henry C. | Remer, J. R. |
| Bethel, A. | Holbrook, sir Arthur Richard | Ropner, Major L. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Brittain, Sir Harry | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hurd, Percy A. | Savery, S. S. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hurst, Gerald B. | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W. R., Sowerby) |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Jacob, A. E. | Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Burman, J. B. | Jephcott, A. R. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Burney, Lieut. -Com. Charles D. | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Templeton, W. P. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) | Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) |
| Cralk, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) | Looker, Herbert William | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen | Waddington, R. |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | McLean, Major A. | Ward. Lt. Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Maitland, Sir Arthur D Steel | Warner. Brigadier-General W. W, |
| Drewe, C. | Malone, Major P. B. | Watson, sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Duckworth, John | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Watts. Dr. T. |
| Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Wiggins, William Martin |
| Fenby, T. D. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Fermoy, Lord | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Forrest, W. | Morris, R. H. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Womersley, W. J. |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Murchison, C. K. | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony | Newton. Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Wood, E. (Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde) |
| Goff, sir Park | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Yerburah, Major Robert D. T. |
| Grattan-Doyte, Sir N, | Oman. Sir Charles William C. | Young, Rt. Hon. Hilton (Norwich) |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Owen, Major G. | |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Penny, Frederick George | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. | Brigadier-General Charteris and |
| Captain Streatfield. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. w. (Fife, West) | Buchanan, G. | Duncan, C. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Dunnico, H. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Cape, Thomas | Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Charleton, H. C. | Elveden, Viscount |
| Baker, Walter | Connolly, M. | Everard, W. Lindsay |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Cove, W. G. | Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. |
| Barnes, A. | Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Gardner, J. P. |
| Batey, Joseph | Dalton, Hugh | Gillett, George M. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Gosling, Harry |
| Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. | Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) |
| Briant, Frank | Day, Colonel Harry | Grant, Sir J. A. |
| Bromfield, William | Dennison, R. | Greenall, T. |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Montague, Frederick | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Greenall, D. H. (Glamorgan) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Groves, T. | Murnin, H. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Grundy, T. W. | Naylor, T. E. | Townend, A. E. |
| Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Oliver, George Harold | Viant, S. P. |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Palin, John Henry | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Hardie, George D. | Paling, W. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Hayes, John Henry | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Henderson,, T. (Glasgow) | Potts, John S. | Welts, S. R. |
| Hirst, G. H. | Remnant, Sir James | Welsh, J. C. |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Richardson, sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Whiteley, W. |
| Jones, T. I, Mardy (Pontypridd) | Riley, Ben | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Kelly, W. T. | Roberts, Rt, Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Kennedy, T. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Kirkwood. D. | Rose, Frank H. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Lansbury, George | Saklatvala, Shapurji | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Lawrence, Susan | Salter, Or. Alfred | Windsor, Walter |
| Lawson, John James | Sexton, James | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Lee. F. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Wood, Sir S. Hill-(High Peak) |
| Lowth, T. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Wright, W. |
| Lunn, William | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Stamford, T. W. | |
| MacNeill-Weir, L. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang | TELLERS FOR THE NOES. — |
| Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Stephen, Campbell | Mr. T. Johnston and Mr. West |
| March, s. | Taylor, R. A. | wood. |
| Maxton, James | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
Bill read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.