§ Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEI beg to move, in page 9, line 4, at the end, to insert the words
and—(b) if the local authority shows to the satisfaction of the Minister that, notwithstanding that they have taken all practicable steps for the purpose, they have been unable to recover the whole or some part of the sum which became repayable to them by reason of the breach of the condition, the Minister may remit the repayment- of the sum repayable to him under this Sub-section up to an amount not exceeding one half of the amount not recovered by the local authority.If this Amendment were carried it would remove a blemish from an otherwise admirable Bill. At present in cases of default the county council has to bear the whole of the cost. If the Amendment is carried the Ministry will be able to meet them half way, by paying half the amount due. That would be fair to the county council and fair to the Ministry.
§ Sir DOUGLAS NEWTONI beg to second the Amendment.
We attach considerable importance to this proposal. Considerable expenses might be incurred, and if the owner of the dwelling-house were found to be a man of straw the county council would be responsible for the whole of any loss which might then be incurred. That appeared to the county councils to be hardly a fair position in which to place them. The Amendment provides that half the loss would be borne by the county council and half by the Ministry of Agriculture.
§ Captain WEDGWOOD BENNOn a point of Order. Apart from the merits of the Amendment, is it one that can be moved on the Report stage, inasmuch as, by the showing of the Mover and Seconder, it throws, at least potentially, a charge on the State?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI have just been thinking of the same point, and I would like to hear the Minister on it. It is a little complicated.
§ Major RUGGLES-BRISEOn that point of Order. May I quote from the "Manual of Procedure," which says:
A Clause or Amendment creating a charge on the public revenue, or imposing any tax, rate, or other burden on the people, may not he moved.1771 The Amendment would not do any of those things. A burden has already been placed on the taxpayer under the Bill, and it is now merely a question whether, if, in certain circumstances, the local authority is able to recover a sum of money from the owner, part of that money shall be allocated back to the Exchequer or be divided as between the Exchequer and the county council. There is no question of creating any further burden on the Exchequer; it is merely a question of intercepting a certain sum of money which might, in certain circumstances, come back to the Exchequer. The Amendment would not impose any further charge on the Exchequer.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI would like to hear the Minister on the subject.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe thing is so doubtful that I must give the hon. Members the benefit of the doubt, and put the Amendment to the House.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINThat being so, I would not like to deny the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment the pleasure of having it accepted.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 224; Noes, 97.
1773| Division No. 537.] | AYES. | [7.42 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Eden, Captain Anthony | Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) |
| Ashley. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Elveden, Viscount | King, Captain Henry Douglas |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Everard, W. Lindsay | Knox, Sir Alfred |
| Atkinson, C. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Little, Dr. E. Graham |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Fanshawe, Commander G. D. | Livingstone, A. M. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Fenhy, T. D. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Fielden, E. B. | Loder, J. de V. |
| Barnett, Major Sir Richard | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Looker, Herbert William |
| Beamish, Captain T. P. H, | Foster, Sir Harry S. | Lord, Walter Greaves- |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere |
| Bennett, A. J. | Fraser, Captain Ian | Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Human |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Frece, Sir Walter de | MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen |
| Berry, Sir George | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) |
| Bethel, A. | Galbraith. J. F. W. | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Ganzoni, Sir John | Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) |
| Boothhy, R. J. G. | Gates, Percy | McLean. Major A. |
| Brass, Captain W. | Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Macmillan, Captain H. |
| Briant, Frank | Goff. Sir Park | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John |
| Brings, J. Harold | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Macguisten, F. A. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Grant, Sir J. A. | MacRobert, Alexander M- |
| Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newh'y) | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. sir William James | Grotrian, H. Brent | Malone, Major P. B |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Margesson, Captain D. |
| Burman, J. B. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Marriott. Sir J. A. R. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Meller. R. J. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Meyer, Sir Frank |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) |
| Cayzer. Maj. Sir Herht. R. (Prtsmth.S.) | Hammersley, S. S. | Mitchell, W. Foot (Sattron Walden) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood) | Hanbury, C. | Monselt, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M |
| Charteris, Brigadier-General J. | Harrison, G. J. C. | Mocre, Lieut. Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) |
| Christie, J. A. | Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Moore, Sir Newton J. |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Haslam, Henry C | Moreing, Captain A. H. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd. Henley) | Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Heneace, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Neville, R. J. |
| Cochrane. Commander Hon. A. D. | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Nield, Rt. Hon. sir Herbert |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy | Nuttall, Ellis |
| Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Oakley, T. |
| Cralk, Ht. Hon. Sir Henry | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | O'Connor, T J. (Bedford, Luton) |
| Crooke. J. Smedley (Derltend) | Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) | Penny, Frederick George |
| Cunliffe, Sir Herbert | Hudson, Capt. A. U.M. (Hackney, N.) | Percy. Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) | Hume, Sir G. H. | Perring, Sir William George |
| Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) | Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) | Huntingfield, Lord | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton |
| Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) | Hurd, Percy A. | Raine, W |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Hurst, Gerald B. | Ramsden, E. |
| Dean, Arthur Wellesley | Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bI's) | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Dixey, A. C. | Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. | Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Remnant, Sir James |
| Drewe, C. | Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Duckworth, John | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U |
| Rice, Sir Frederick | Smithers, Waldron | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) |
| Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Sprot, Sir Alexander | Watts, Dr. T. |
| Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) | Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F.(Will'sden,E.) | Wells, S. R. |
| Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) | Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. |
| Ropner, Major L. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) | Williams. A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) |
| Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. | Storry-Deans, R. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Streatfield, Captain S. R. | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Rye, F. G. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd) |
| Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser | Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel George |
| Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Tasker, Major R. InIgo | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Sandeman, A. Stewart | Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Sanderson, Sir Frank | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Tinne, J. A. | Wood. E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Savery, S. S. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) |
| Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Shaw, Capt. W. W, (Wilts, Westb'y) | Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough | Wragg, Herbert |
| Shepperson, E. W. | Vaughan-M organ. Col. K. P. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) | Wallace, Captain D. E. | |
| Skelton, A. N. | Ward, Lt.-Col.A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Slaney, Major P. Kenyon | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. | Major Cope and Captain Bowyer. |
| Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Potts, John S. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Ammon, Charles George | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Riley, Ben |
| Attice, Clement Richard | Groves, T. | Rose, Frank H. |
| Gaker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Grundy, T. W. | Sexton, James |
| Baker, Walter | Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe), |
| Barnes, A. | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Barr J. | Hardie, George D | Smith, Rwnnie Penistone) |
| Batey, Joseph | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Hayes, John Henry | Stanford, T. W. |
| Bromfield, William | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Bromley, J. | Hirst, G. H. | Taylor, R. A. |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Thome, W (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Cape, Thomas | Hudson, J. H, (Huddersfield) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Charleton, H. C. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Townend, A. E. |
| Clowes, S. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Viant, S. P. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Connolly, M. | Kelly, W. T. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Cove, W. G. | Kennedy. T. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lawson, John James | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) | Lee, F. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lindley, F. W. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | Lowth, T. | Whiteley, W. |
| Dennison, R. | Lunn, William | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Duncan, C. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Atterclifte) |
| Dunnico, H. | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow |
| Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. | March, S. | Wright, W. |
| Gardner, J. P. | Montague, Frederick | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Gillett, George M. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | |
| Gosling, Harry | Naylor, T. E. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Oliver, George Harold | Mr. Alien Parkinson and Mr. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cent.) | Paling, W. | Charles Edwards. |
| Greenall, T. | Ponsonby, Arthur |