HC Deb 06 December 1926 vol 200 cc1770-3
Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

I beg to move, in page 9, line 4, at the end, to insert the words and— (b) if the local authority shows to the satisfaction of the Minister that, notwithstanding that they have taken all practicable steps for the purpose, they have been unable to recover the whole or some part of the sum which became repayable to them by reason of the breach of the condition, the Minister may remit the repayment- of the sum repayable to him under this Sub-section up to an amount not exceeding one half of the amount not recovered by the local authority. If this Amendment were carried it would remove a blemish from an otherwise admirable Bill. At present in cases of default the county council has to bear the whole of the cost. If the Amendment is carried the Ministry will be able to meet them half way, by paying half the amount due. That would be fair to the county council and fair to the Ministry.


I beg to second the Amendment.

We attach considerable importance to this proposal. Considerable expenses might be incurred, and if the owner of the dwelling-house were found to be a man of straw the county council would be responsible for the whole of any loss which might then be incurred. That appeared to the county councils to be hardly a fair position in which to place them. The Amendment provides that half the loss would be borne by the county council and half by the Ministry of Agriculture.


On a point of Order. Apart from the merits of the Amendment, is it one that can be moved on the Report stage, inasmuch as, by the showing of the Mover and Seconder, it throws, at least potentially, a charge on the State?


I have just been thinking of the same point, and I would like to hear the Minister on it. It is a little complicated.


On that point of Order. May I quote from the "Manual of Procedure," which says: A Clause or Amendment creating a charge on the public revenue, or imposing any tax, rate, or other burden on the people, may not he moved. The Amendment would not do any of those things. A burden has already been placed on the taxpayer under the Bill, and it is now merely a question whether, if, in certain circumstances, the local authority is able to recover a sum of money from the owner, part of that money shall be allocated back to the Exchequer or be divided as between the Exchequer and the county council. There is no question of creating any further burden on the Exchequer; it is merely a question of intercepting a certain sum of money which might, in certain circumstances, come back to the Exchequer. The Amendment would not impose any further charge on the Exchequer.


I would like to hear the Minister on the subject.


I do not feel competent to express an opinion.


The thing is so doubtful that I must give the hon. Members the benefit of the doubt, and put the Amendment to the House.


That being so, I would not like to deny the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment the pleasure of having it accepted.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 224; Noes, 97.

Division No. 537.] AYES. [7.42 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Eden, Captain Anthony Kennedy, A. R. (Preston).
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Edmondson, Major A. J. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Ashley. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Elveden, Viscount King, Captain Henry Douglas
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Atholl, Duchess of Everard, W. Lindsay Knox, Sir Alfred
Atkinson, C. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Little, Dr. E. Graham
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Livingstone, A. M.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Fenhy, T. D. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Fielden, E. B. Loder, J. de V.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Looker, Herbert William
Beamish, Captain T. P. H, Foster, Sir Harry S. Lord, Walter Greaves-
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere
Bennett, A. J. Fraser, Captain Ian Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Human
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Frece, Sir Walter de MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Berry, Sir George Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)
Bethel, A. Galbraith. J. F. W. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Betterton, Henry B. Ganzoni, Sir John Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Boothhy, R. J. G. Gates, Percy McLean. Major A.
Brass, Captain W. Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Macmillan, Captain H.
Briant, Frank Goff. Sir Park McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John
Brings, J. Harold Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Macguisten, F. A.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Grant, Sir J. A. MacRobert, Alexander M-
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newh'y) Greene, W. P. Crawford Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Bull, Rt. Hon. sir William James Grotrian, H. Brent Malone, Major P. B
Bullock, Captain M. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Margesson, Captain D.
Burman, J. B. Gunston, Captain D. W. Marriott. Sir J. A. R.
Burton, Colonel H. W. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Meller. R. J.
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Meyer, Sir Frank
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Cayzer. Maj. Sir Herht. R. (Prtsmth.S.) Hammersley, S. S. Mitchell, W. Foot (Sattron Walden)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood) Hanbury, C. Monselt, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Harrison, G. J. C. Mocre, Lieut. Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Christie, J. A. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Moore, Sir Newton J.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Haslam, Henry C Moreing, Captain A. H.
Clayton, G. C. Henderson, Capt. R.R. (Oxf'd. Henley) Nail, Colonel Sir Joseph
Cobb, Sir Cyril Heneace, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Neville, R. J.
Cochrane. Commander Hon. A. D. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Courtauld, Major J. S. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Nield, Rt. Hon. sir Herbert
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Nuttall, Ellis
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Oakley, T.
Cralk, Ht. Hon. Sir Henry Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) O'Connor, T J. (Bedford, Luton)
Crooke. J. Smedley (Derltend) Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities) Penny, Frederick George
Cunliffe, Sir Herbert Hudson, Capt. A. U.M. (Hackney, N.) Percy. Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Curzon, Captain Viscount Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Davidson, J.(Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Hume, Sir G. H. Perring, Sir William George
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) Huntingfield, Lord Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Assheton
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Hurd, Percy A. Raine, W
Davies, Dr. Vernon Hurst, Gerald B. Ramsden, E.
Dean, Arthur Wellesley Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bI's) Rawson, Sir Cooper
Dixey, A. C. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)
Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Remnant, Sir James
Drewe, C. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Rentoul, G. S.
Duckworth, John Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U
Rice, Sir Frederick Smithers, Waldron Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Sprot, Sir Alexander Watts, Dr. T.
Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F.(Will'sden,E.) Wells, S. R.
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Ropner, Major L. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Williams. A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Storry-Deans, R. Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Streatfield, Captain S. R. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Rye, F. G. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel George
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Tasker, Major R. InIgo Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Sandeman, A. Stewart Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton) Wise, Sir Fredric
Sanderson, Sir Frank Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Womersley, W. J.
Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Tinne, J. A. Wood. E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)
Savery, S. S. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Shaw, Capt. W. W, (Wilts, Westb'y) Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough Wragg, Herbert
Shepperson, E. W. Vaughan-M organ. Col. K. P. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Wallace, Captain D. E.
Skelton, A. N. Ward, Lt.-Col.A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Major Cope and Captain Bowyer.
Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Potts, John S.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Ammon, Charles George Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Riley, Ben
Attice, Clement Richard Groves, T. Rose, Frank H.
Gaker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Grundy, T. W. Sexton, James
Baker, Walter Guest, Haden (Southwark, N.) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe),
Barnes, A. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Barr J. Hardie, George D Smith, Rwnnie Penistone)
Batey, Joseph Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Spoor, Rt. Hon. Benjamin Charles
Bondfield, Margaret Hayes, John Henry Stanford, T. W.
Bromfield, William Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Stephen, Campbell
Bromley, J. Hirst, G. H. Taylor, R. A.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Thome, W (West Ham, Plaistow)
Cape, Thomas Hudson, J. H, (Huddersfield) Thurtle, Ernest
Charleton, H. C. John, William (Rhondda, West) Townend, A. E.
Clowes, S. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Viant, S. P.
Cluse, W. S. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Wallhead, Richard C.
Connolly, M. Kelly, W. T. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Cove, W. G. Kennedy. T. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Dalton, Hugh Lawson, John James Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Lee, F. Welsh, J. C.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lindley, F. W. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Day, Colonel Harry Lowth, T. Whiteley, W.
Dennison, R. Lunn, William Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Duncan, C. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Atterclifte)
Dunnico, H. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. March, S. Wright, W.
Gardner, J. P. Montague, Frederick Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Gillett, George M. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Gosling, Harry Naylor, T. E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Oliver, George Harold Mr. Alien Parkinson and Mr.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Win. (Edin., Cent.) Paling, W. Charles Edwards.
Greenall, T. Ponsonby, Arthur