HC Deb 30 March 1925 vol 182 cc1050-64

Considered in Committee, under Standing Order No. 71A.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That it is expedient, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session, to amend the law with respect to the management of the Imperial Institute, to authorise the payment, out of the moneys provided by Parliament: (1) in each year during the five years after the commencement of the Act, of a sum of nine thousand pounds towards the expenses of the Imperial Institute and thereafter of such sum, if any, as Parliament may determine; and (2) of such additional sum, if any, towards the maintenance of exhibition galleries as Parliament may determine."—[King's Recommendation signified.]

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore)

The Imperial Institute Bill has been read a Second time, and is now before a Select Committee, under the chairmanship of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Seaham (Mr. Webb), which is considering it, and hearing evidence, if necessary, from any petitioners against the Bill. Before, however, the Bill can be fully dealt with in Committee, a Financial Resolution is necessary, owing to the financial Clause. As hon. 'Members will realise from the memorandum that has been circulated, the Imperial Institute is maintained from various sources. Originally, the sum of £429,000 was collected by private donations throughout the Empire, as a memorial of Queen Victoria's first Jubilee in 1887. That was spent partly in erecting the magnificent building near Exhibition Road, in what is now called Imperial Institute Road, and the rest formed an Endowment Fund bringing in approximately £6,000 a year.

Towards the remaining expenditure in connection with the maintenance of the Institute we have received, since the Imperial Economic Conference discussed this matter, an extremely generous donation of £5,000 a year from Lord Cowdray as a personal subscription, and the rest has been made up by this country, the Dominions, and the Colonies. This Resolution is to give effect to the recommendations of the Imperial Economic Conference in regard to the Mother Country's share. The Dominions sub scribe £8,000 a year, and the Crown Colonies and Protectorates £8,000, and this represents our contribution. The Bill was introduced by the Labour Government last year in another place, and it there passed through all its stages, when, unfortunately, the General Election came. We have introduced it in identically the same form, without any alteration, in this House, and it has been read a Second time. I now ask the Committee to give us this Financial Resolution.

Mr. PERCY HARRIS

I beg to move, in paragraph (1), to leave out the word "nine" ["nine thousand pounds"], and to insert instead thereof the word "five."

This is a very curious way of dealing with a very important subject. I suppose it is owing to the fate of constant changes in Government that this, and so many other Measures which are now fathered by the Conservative Government, are a legacy from its predecessor. When one realises what a violent reaction preceded the change, it is rather curious that so many Measures which see the light in this very uneventful and dull Session are attributed to the parentage of the Labour Government. The present Government are, apparently, very pleased to father many of their offspring. I want this Committee—very small in numbers at the moment—to realise its responsibility in some of these financial matters. I remember that Mr. Bonar Law, as the result of a good deal of criticism when ho was Leader of the House, gave a very sound undertaking that such Resolutions should have the benefit of a Memorandum. That stipulation has been formally complied with, and we have had a Memorandum, issued at the price of a penny, on this Financial Resolution; but I really would challenge any Member, coming to this Committee for the first time and being asked to incur a liability for five years, to get any real light as to the reason for voting ibis money.

I have no doubt that all of us are conversant with that great building, the imperial Institute, that was the pride and glory of our boyhood. I remember its being opened with great pomp and circumstance, and with great expectations. It was going to be the centre of light and learning for the Empire; it was to be a stimulus to Imperial bonds, and a help to industry. Great hopes and expectations were aroused. Personally, I think it was a great idea, and I think it is a tragedy that those who nobly conceived this institute, which brought subscriptions from all parts of the Empire as a memorial to the great Queen, have reason to regret that this great ideal was allowed to lapse through, if I might say so, sloppy thinking, and not carefully working out the details of this great institution. The Under-Secretary for the Colonies did not trouble to tell the Committee how this situation arose. It is a very long history, and it is very well stated—as no one knows better than the hon. Gentleman, because he was the chairman of the Committee—in the very remarkable Report which was made by the imperial Institute Committee of Inquiry, and which, if the hon. Gentleman will allow me to say so, reflects great credit upon his handiwork. These -Reports are usually very dull reading, but this one is lucid, stimulating and instructive, and I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman did not think—

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

If the hon. Member will allow me to say so, I am quite sure that it would not be in order, on the Financial Resolution, to discuss the Bill. We can only discuss now the financial provisions contained in the Bill.

Mr. HARRIS

Yes; but may I say, with very great respect., that this Committee is now being asked to pass a liability of £9,000 for five years, and we must consider why it is necessary, after all these years, to come and ask Parliament to incur this liability. It is not only a matter for this Parliament, for in five years' time this House of Commons may have ceased to exist, and it is important that we should remember the very curious history which has led to this great institution having to come cap in hand in order to ask for financial assistance by a Resolution of the House of Commons. This is not the first time it has had to come and ask for assistance, and, therefore, we are hound to consider something of its past history.

In 1902, owing to the difficulties of the Institute, it was transferred to the Board of Trade, and the Board of Trade was responsible for its financial administration for five years. Then it passed to the Colonial Office. In 1917, the then Secretary of State appointed a very small, but very able, Committee, presided over by no less a person than Mr. Hewins, which reported adversely on the question of an increase in the income of the Institute. I am sure that that is a relevant matter, as the Under-Secretary will see. In 1919, a very strong appeal was made to the Dominions to come to the financial aid of the Institute, but, as the Under-Secretary will remember, that appeal did not meet with a very sympathetic response. The Union of South Africa, the Commonwealth of Australia, and our awn Indian Empire, after careful consideration, did not think it advisable to help to assist the Institute to get the necessary revenue, which amounts to no less a sum than £40,000 a year. As the result, I understand, of the failure of that appeal, the hon. Gentleman conducted this very lengthy inquiry.

I do not want to get into conflict with the Chair, and accordingly I shall not discuss anything which is in the Bill. I entirely agree that that is a thing to be avoided, but I think it is most important that this Committee, before it commits itself to this large sum, should consider the financial side. At the end of the Report a balance sheet is given, which shows that the revenue required comes, not to £9,000, but to £39,000. The expenditure is enumerated. The Endowment Fund comes to only £3,426; the Annuity to only £864; and there is an amount of £1,710 for fees—an estimated amount which is purely speculative; while it remains to be seen whether those gloomy galleries, without any reconstruction, will bring in a sum of £8,000, as stated in the balance sheet. That leaves to be provided by the various Governments, £25,000. The Under-Secretary ought to make clear what guarantees he has that the balance of the revenue in addition to the grant from this House will be forthcoming from the Colonies and the Dominions beyond the seas.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

Will the hon. Member turn over to the next page but twp—the Resolution of the Imperial Economic Conference?

Mr. HARRIS

I go further than that. I go to the Minority Report from the representative of the Union of South Africa, their High Commissioner, Mr. Joseph Cook. Let us see what the High Commissioner for South Africa says: I regret that I am unable to sign the report of the Committee. It is clear, from the evidence submitted to the Committee, that there is great diversity of opinion on four of the outstanding matters brought under their consideration: (a) The extent to which the Imperial Institute has achieved the objects which the promoters set before them, whether there is need for its continued existence; and (b) whether the response from the Dominions, Colonies and Overseas possessions of the Crown indicates a desire"— That is the vital thing— on their part to maintain the Institute, and whether they evince a readiness to contribute a fair proportion to its support. You could not have anything much clearer than that. (c) whether the public utility of the institute justifies the expenditure incurred. These people from the Dominions are not mealy-mouthed. They speak out what is in their minds and do not attempt to mislead their Parliaments by misleading statements. This is a clear and emphatic statement from the representative of the Union of South Africa. He goes on to say: and (d) whether there is not much overlapping in the work of this and other institutions with similar aims. He further says: It is always difficult and painful to come to such a decision as is outlined above, and, putting aside appeals to sentiment, which are no doubt inevitable, to view the matter purely from a paint of view of practical usefulness and to treat the subject entirely on its merits. He goes on in that strain, making it quite clear that, speaking for the Union of South Africa, he is not anxious that his Dominion should be financially involved. Mr. Joseph Cook speaks in no less uncertain voice: The evidence, so far as I am able to follow it, makes it quite clear that the Imperial Institute in its present form has reached the limits of its usefulness. The position of my own Dominion is that nearly all the work that the Institute could do is now being done in our own Technical and Scientific Bureaux. These are becoming every year more efficient and better equipped, with the result that the work formerly done by the institute is now done in Australia, with the same thoroughness and, of course, with much greater despatch. The cost of these last year was a very large sum. The Galleries as at present organised are, to say the least, of doubtful utility so far as the Dominions are concerned. He goes on to say After all, there is one unfailing test to be applied to a matter of this kind, namely, the desire of the people to make use of these institutions and their willingness to pay for the services rendered. The application of this practical test makes two things obvious: (1) that to be of the maximum service to the people of Great Britain and the Colonies thorough and speedy reorganisation is necessary; and (2) that the Dominions as a whole are finding the need of it much less as their own institutions and organisations develop. Year by year they are clothing themselves in the same technical and scientific habiliments with much the same objects in view. The same applies to India. India has made it quite clear that she does not desire to have any financial liability for this institute, unless it is thoroughly overhauled and reorganised, and the work changed in every respect.

Are we justified, in the face of the Report, in involving the finances of this country in this very large sum for a period of five years? I realise that in the meantime this institute must go on, but I suggest that the case could be met by providing a considerably smaller sum, and for a very much less period. My own feeling is that we might commit Parliament for one year. That would be long enough. Even then, I very much doubt whether it is wise to commit ourselves to any large sum for the Imperial Institute in its present form. Obviously, an institute standing as a memorial of the Jubilee of Queen Victoria should be a live institute, and one which has the respect and confidence of the Dominions, and should be proved to be serving a really useful purpose. The institute should be of such a character that it has not the unwilling but the loyal and keen co-operation of every part of His Majesty's Dominions.

The Report most emphatically says that nearly every part of the work done by the institute at the present time, and which it is proposed to continue, is being done more efficiently, more economically and in every way in a more satisfactory manner by other organisations. It is unfortunate that these organisations were allowed to come into existence. It would have been much more satisfactory and much more to the credit of the Empire that this one institution should have been able to func tion, but we cannot get over the fact that this Report makes it quite clear that alp these duties of the institute really can be done, and are being done, by rival institutions, and that there is considerable overlapping.

Let me take one or two of the functions of the institute. One of the purposes of the Imperial Institute was to provide a representative collection of the raw materials and manufactured products of the Empire. A very splendid and a very practical proposal, but the Report says: It is only necessary here to state that the Institute does not at present exercise it powers under the Charter of illustrating the raw products of foreign countries and the comparative advance in agriculture, commerce and industry. With regard to the technical information bureau which was proposed to be concentrated in this institute, the Report says: It is to be observed, however, that the Institute does not contain similar establishments in any other part of the Empire. Therefore, the scheme likely to be provided for by this £9,000 cannot possibly arrange for anything of that kind. A third function of the Institute under the Charter was to collect and disseminate information relating to the trade and industry of the Empire. That work, the Report says, is now covered by the work of the Technical Information Bureau. As regards trades and industries, the work of the Institute in one of its most important functions is covered by the Department of Overseas Trade, -which was established in 1917. I do not understand that the Ministry of Overseas Trade, which is a very expensive and elaborate organisation, represented by a Minister in this House, is to be abolished. I understand that the Ministry of Overseas Trade is to continue, with all its glory untarnished by this revival of the Imperial Institute, and that the voting of this £9,000 will not decrease in any way the Vote for the Ministry of Overseas Trade. We are bound to consider, now that things are changing, now that new Departments are being organised, the necessity for avoiding the incurring of such heavy liabilities in a time of great financial stringency like the present. Then arrangements were to be made by the Imperial Institute for the organisation of exhibitions. With respect to this, the Report says that the Imperial Institute does not undertake any work in connection with exhibitions, but that this work is done by the Department of Overseas Trade and other Departments

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

The object of the Bill is to have the institute under it.

Mr. HARRIS

I was told by the hon. Member that I must not refer to a Bill. That is my difficulty. If he be right in his point of Order—and I have respect for him, as an old Member of the House, in these matters—I should be precluded from referring to a Bill which is to be considered after the Financial Resolution is adopted. One of the original proposals of the institute, a very fine picturesque idea, was to promote technical commercial education, but meantime, perhaps unwisely, the College of Science and Technology—

The CHAIRMAN

I think that the hon. Member must confine his arguments to the £9,000 referred to in this Resolution.

Mr. HARRIS

Yes, but we must permit the Committee to see what is involved in this Resolution. If we are to revive the Imperial Institute, let us do it on a proper scale. I want to limit the liability of this House to keep the institute alive, pending the development of a scheme which will make it of great practical use to the Empire. I do not want. to weary the Committee with too much detail, but I may point out that after a great many pages of their Report—and it is a very valuable and lucid Report, which Members of the Committee should read—on page 16, paragraph 39, they say: On the other hand, even although the Institute as it functions to-day has ceased to perform many of the duties with which it was entrusted under Royal Charter, there is evidence to show that its remaining services are by no means the exclusive sphere of the Institute, but are carried on, at least in part, by numerous other institutions. In other words, we are voting this money when we are going to be asked to vote in other directions money to other Departments which are doing the work equally well.

Sir W. SUGDEN

Certainly not.

Mr. HARRIS

I am prepared to accept the Report of the Under-Secretary in preference to a bare contradiction. The hon. Member will have an opportunity when I sit down to refute me, but denial is not argument. The Report makes it clear that we have already voted to other Departments moneys to carry on the work of the Imperial Institute, and we are bound, therefore, to be satisfied that this money is going to be properly spent in the interests of the Empire and of trade. The only work which the institute is doing at present is experiments on plant and insect life. This is the only work which can be shown to have no overlapping in other Departments. We have found, however, no overlapping between the Imperial Institute and the Imperial Bureau of Emtomology and the Imperial Bureau of Mycology. It is excellent work, and the institute deserves every credit for doing it, but even that work is not actually done in the institute. It is done partly in the Natural History Museum at South Kensington and partly in Kew Gardens, one of which is under the Board of Education and the other of which is under the Ministry of Agriculture. The Committee should consider carefully before incurring financial liabilities, for which they are not going to get an adequate return in any direction, according to the report of a Committee presided over by a member of the present Government. We must face the facts. Meantime, every Dominion has set up offices of its own, more centrally situated and better located far business and trade. In the Strand there is a series of fine offices, fittingly terminated by the splendid building of the Dominion of Australia, where they have a complete exhibition of the products of Australia, which is convenient to business people and well organised and in direct contact with the High Commissioner and the Agent-General. At Trafalgar Square there is a fine block which exhibits the products of the Union of South Africa. On the other side of Trafalgar Square there is another new building going up which is to be occupied by the Dominion of Canada. These are more effective and in every better for the work of the Dominions than the miserable galleries belonging to the Imperial Institute.

Is it fair or right to play with a big question like this? If we are to find useful work in future for this great institute, is it not better to be sure that we take the right direction? There are located there now the headquarters of the University of London, which does its work well and is of great assistance. I submit that, if we have money to spare, it would be better spent in making that great building a centre of imperial education. There is some hint in this report in that direction, but if we pass this Resolution in its present form we are prejudiced as regards the future of a building erected by the loyal goodwill, affection, and friendship of people from all parts of our great Empire. This recommendation is brought on towards the end of our day's business when Members are not really conscious of the importance of the issue before them. These issues may not be considered of importance to Members in various constituencies, but I am satisfied that in all parts of the Empire there is a desire that anything in which the Empire takes an interest should be worthy of it and should be conceived on the right scale. This is a scheme which, on the basis of the reports and letters, has not the sympathy and the goodwill of the Dominions. It would be a fatal mistake to commit this House for five years to a large sum like this.

9.0 P.M.

Sir W. SUGDEN

I have listened with a certain sense of amazement to the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down. The hon. Gentleman belongs to a school that is known as the Little England school, and the speech to which we have listened is undoubtedly from a disciple of that school. These are days when we are struggling to get work and business for the working and commercial classes of this country, and the hon. Gentleman has proposed an Amendment which would have the direct result of making even worse the position and reduce the offers which may be made for work and business for the working classes of this country. What is the vital weakness of our industry as we know it in the Empire and in this country? It is the fact that, whereas every business community which is of any status and every business corporation in Europe and America, is exercising to the full in its individual and corporate capacity research into trade and business, and also general propaganda, the hon. Gentleman proposes that that small section of research work that we are doing in respect of the Empire or this country should be diminished still further. We started well when we gave opportunities for the great Empire Exhibition, for it did more to give to the world a knowledge of our great engineering and industrial capacity than anything else in the last 100 years. Now, forsooth, when these methods and this propaganda should be blazoning forth to the world still further the unique opportunity of comradeship for trade which may obtain between the Dominions and ourselves, we are told that the necessary means to that end should be still further restricted. The hon. Gentleman suggests that the palatial offices built and organised for academic and separate Dominion State purposes for the officialdom of these daughter Dominions, are sufficient in respect to the business community of this country. In the United States they have statistics and calculations upon every phase and bearing of industry in every part of the world in relation to themselves, whereas we in this country have not fully the coordinating feature of industrial statistics between even our Dominions and ourselves, nor yet between one Dominion and another. Although there has been quoted, in the Report mentioned, a suggestion that the representatives of the Dominions think that other methods should obtain, yet I challenge the hon. Gentleman to refute my statement that no business community in any of the Dominions would do other than support the greater use of the Imperial Institute in London.

Mr. HARRIS

The hon. Gentleman challenges me. The Federation of British Industries deliberately refused to give any evidence before the Committee.

Sir W. SUGDEN

In respect to the examination that took place, the organised industries in the Dominions, together with the employés' organisations in the Dominions, knew that they were to give evidence to men who, though public-spirited, had no vital and practical knowledge of organised labour or industry in the Dominions; they were simply a Committee of public men. Therefore the organisation of business men and the employés' association were quite correct and within their rights in refusing to give to those who were not of their own type the information, statistics and data which are essential. We ought to be proud of the fact that we are the greatest trading race that the world has known. If we are to progress on the right lines, namely, those of the Empire Exhibition and what followed it, we must utilise to a still greater degree than hitherto the Imperial Institute and that for which it stands. A second point I wish to make is that there is no greater economist on these benches than I am. I am determined that in respect of our spending departments we shall have full value for our money. But there is such a thing as being penny wise and pound foolish; we may save £5,000 and waste £50,000. I suggest that by utilising in a greater degree the record of the work that will follow the recent exhibition, we shall help the trading community and find work for our people and help lighten taxation burdens more easily by the pos-session of greater knowledge and greater industrial capacity than by shutting up the institute and sectionising the data and information contained in the well-managed departments of the Commonwealth in this city. The hon. Gentleman has spoken about overseas trade. He knows just as well as I do that the overseas trade and its function and status and bearing are not capable of dealing with the whole of the business work and the welfare and industrial conditions of the workers of the Dominions. While it may be that the League of Nations, in its International Bureau, has been able to obtain data in respect of world-wide industry, and while we have to-day to consider the workers' standpoint internationally as well as nationally, there is no central arrangement and organisation equal to the Imperial Institute to deal with the organised labour of the Dominions and the homeland, they helping their comrades in this country and together hammering out of schemes that will find work for their own people and in this country as well.

What do the official Dominions suggest to us? Their suggestion is that such as are workfolk who cannot be contained in the industries in this country may be taken there. But we know, who belong to the great craftsmen of this country, that the official information and data tendered to us from these subordinate offices present calls for only the land-worker. We say that if the money that is called for—I would support an even larger sum—can be utilised to give trade from the varying stratus of industrial growth in our daughter Dominions, there will be an opportunity of work for the craftsmen of this country here rather than sending him overseas. The third point I wish to emphasise is that in regard to our difficulties of general knowledge of the opportunities for education and of the psychology of these daughter Dominions. So long as separate sections only are retained instead of being co-ordinated with the Royal Imperial Institute, so long will it be that we shall never be able to function as a whole in the British Empire or to take advantage of the opportunities which are available for our Dominions to act in co-operation and co-partnership with the Mother Country. It is only by means of an institute like this that this co-ordinating factor can be obtained. I hope therefore the Committee will not accede to the Amendment. I trust that the splendid Imperial spirit which should be above any political view will animate the Committee on all sides, and that they will take the long and wide view, and will adventure helpfully in such fashion as is now permitted to us, and in such a way as to make possible an enlargement of craftsmanship, a higher standard of comfort, thus affording better opportunities and greater employment for our home folk.

Mr. SNELL

The Mover of the Amendment made it a point of criticism against the Government that they had taken over some of the Measures of the late Labour Government. I venture to say that when the record of this Government is written, that fact will count to its merit when other things will not. The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Mr. Harris) will forgive me if I approach this problem from an angle rather different from that which he indicated. It seems to me the question of spending £9,000 is not the real factor. The real factor is whether or not we are going to get full value for the money. If we are to get full value, then the price we are asked to pay for what one may call a University of Empire or of Commonwealth is extremely low. What surprises me is why, if the Imperial Institute serves any purpose at all, it should not receive far greater support on the financial side. Perhaps there is some point in the criticism of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green, that we have heard less of the researches and less of the active work of the Imperial Institute than we might have heard. I imagine that, on principle, everybody agrees that we must have some central place, some clearing house of information about the various parts of the Empire, to which inquirers, such as possible emigrants, merchants, and scientific students, may go, and the purpose is not served if these inquirers have to go one day to Kew, another day to Kensington, and a third day somewhere else to pick up facts which should be available in one centre, accessible to the public. My criticism of this Resolution would be by way of asking: Are we getting from the Imperial Institute that efficiency which the business with which it is charged demands? If we are getting that efficiency, then I do not complain about the expenditure of a small sum of £9,000. I do wish to say, however, that we very rarely hear of its operations. Its researches very rarely come before us, and I can imagine that in its archives are stacks of useful information which neither we, nor the public, have at our disposal. The criticism which I would urge is that the Imperial Institute in taking this responsibility upon itself, should put first things first. Some of the things it does may be of vital importance, and the results of those researches should be made available in every part of this country and the Dominions. Had it come within the scope of this Resolution I should have liked to have said something about the kind of representation proposed for the administration and general oversight of this money. I will only say in an indirect way that it seems to me every part of the Commonwealth should be represented, if the Imperial Institute is going to deal with the whole Empire. For example, I think Southern Rhodesia, which is just beginning its career—

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is going rather wide of the subject before the Committee. His remarks would be relevant in Committee on the Bill, but they are scarcely relevant at this stage.

Mr. SNELL

I will defer that portion of my criticism until the proper time arrives. I urge that those responsible for the expenditure of this money should see that the nation gets a full return for it. If the Imperial Institute functions in the way in which it was intended to, function, then, so far from creating unemployment, it will help to solve that problem. The last speaker said we were the greatest trading nation in the world. I am not so sure of that. My own feeling is that we are losing ground every day, chiefly because we are so slow to apply the results of science and research to our industry. If the Imperial Institute helps us to do that, the money will be well spent.

Amendment negatived.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.