HC Deb 18 March 1925 vol 181 cc2427-38

Resolution reported, That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to amend the Law relating to teinds and to the stipends of ministers of the Church of Scotland, and the tenure of the property and endowments of that Church, and for purposes connected therewith, it is expedient—

  1. (1) to authorise the Treasury to contract for the redemption by payment of a capital sum or sums of all or any of the payments to or on behalf of that Church, or the General Assembly, or any committee or institution of the Church, or any minister or precentor, which are now charged on and payabe out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom;
  2. (2) to authorise the Treasury to borrow from the National Debt Commissioners 2428 any capital sum or sums which may be necessary for carrying into effect any contract for such redemption;
  3. (3) to authorise the Treasury, for the purpose of repaying any such loan, to create in favour of the said Commissioners a terminable annuity for a period not exceeding twenty years from the date of the loan, to be calculated with interest at such rate as may be agreed, and to charge any such annuity upon the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom or the growing produce thereof."


I beg to move, in line 9, at the end, to insert the words Provided that such capital sum or sums shall not exceed the amount, together with interest thereon, necessary for discharging in full all existing life interests. At this hour I will consult the convenience of hon. Members by not dwelling at great length on this very important subject, I think, however, that there are one or two points on which we might desire fuller information from the Minister. The Lord Advocate, when this matter was before us on a former occasion in Committee, brought the history of the teinds down to date, and showed how these Exchequer grants were, as he contended, in lieu of bishops' teinds. That set me looking up more fully and accurately the history of these bishops' teinds, and I found that they were expressly confined to bishops who had made their submission to King Charles I., and had accepted the divine right of kings. Therefore, I think the Church of Scotland, which was opposed to episcopacy and opposed to the divine right of kings in that sense, can hardly make a claim, and indeed it was because they were tied to episcopacy that these teinds were abolished or reverted to the Crown in 1690.

In the next place, we wish to call attention to the indefiniteness of this proposal to give such sum or sums out of the Treasury as will redeem the sums at present given. We know that Lord Haldane in his Report suggested that the capital sum should be such that it would provide in all time coming grants equal to those at present given, and I think we are entitled to some guidance from the Minister as to whether his proposal amounts to this, or whether he has departed from it. We maintain that the safe principle is to give in full and in a generous way to meet all life interests, and to let these grants, which we maintain are unjust and are obnoxious to the people of Scotland as a whole, be brought to an end, instead of providing a capital sum that will give them a perpetual continuance.

There is another point on which I should like a little information. A question was put to the Secretary for Scotland by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Boss and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) to the effect that it was common knowledge that the Church of Scotland, and even the United Free Church, which I represent, in some of its parishes in the Highlands, had a very small membership and a very small number of adherents, and asking as to the Church known as the Free Church of Scotland, which can claim a large adherence in some of these places. In one of their memoranda they give the case of a parish where there are 10 people connected with the Church of Scotland, and, for aught that I know, no more connected with my own Church, while they have 1,155 adherents. In a similar case, 13 in the Church of Scotland as against 490 in their Church. I agree with all that fell from the hon. Member for Ross as to the way in which that Church has held certain districts of our country, but what I am concerned about is the subject of Parliamentary control. The Secretary for Scotland said the Church of Scotland, having this money, might through the sister Church meet the case and carry on its national work; and it occurs to me that this money is being given to a Church which has a specific constitution, which had its constitution enlarged in 1921 and very clearly defined, and is such a Church at liberty to make a compromise and to give monies out of what we are voting to-night to another Church to do the work? It seems to me that this House might thereby be countenancing a heresy for anything it knows, and as a matter of fact this Church in its claim already maintains that the constitution of the Church of Scotland is a vitiated constitution, that it sacrifices the profession of the reformed faith, that it is a betrayal of the fabric of reformation which we have inherited from our reformers, covenanters, and confessors, and they use still stronger language. What I should wish to know is that we know what we are doing, and if we are acting in keeping with the principle of Parliamentary control, and that we do not allow one Church to receive money and then hand it over to another Church to do the work. To sum up, in Scotland there is nothing more obnoxious than this form of State endowment—coming direct to the Exchequer and taking grants for the purpose of assisting a single denomination. I think the union itself is hindered rather than helped, and I can say for my own church that I have never known any minister or office bearer justify these Exchequer grants. It is a very clear issue indeed. There is no other church in the United Kingdom that receives such grants. The Church of England does not receive grants direct from the Exchequer. We hold them to be wrong in themselves and we hold that you do not improve them by giving a lump sum, which is really perpetuating them; because then you can never recall it We maintain that you should meet life interests, and bring the whole system, to an end. We hold it to be opposed to every principle of religions equality: and the people of Scotland, although they desire union on a satisfactory basis, are strongly opposed to taking public money directly from the Exchequer and applying it to the purposes of a particular denomination. We think that, by a generous meeting of life interests in the way we propose, we should bring this system to an end, and further, instead of retard, the great principle of union itself.


I beg to second the Amendment.

I hope we shall be able to extract from the Lord Advocate a clear statement as to how much money is actually involved in this. I do not know, and I do not know anyone who knows, what this is likely to cost the State. The Treasury is to come to terms with the Church of Scotland. What terms the public are to get no one knows, and I am surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is getting a reputation, perhaps undeservedly, for being an economist, would, in the face of his Budget, allow this sort of thing to go on under his very nose. He perhaps has not paid the attention to this matter which he would have paid if he had been a representative of a Scottish constituency still, or if he had not been of the opinion that it was perfectly safe to delegate the financial arrangements under this Bill to the Secretary for Scotland. We are entitled to know exactly what the financial commitments, what exact sums of money are involved in this Bill. Past experience of the financial management of the Church of Scotland does not lead some of us to believe that we will get off very easily. We ought really to have a clear statement of what this means, and I for one shall be indebted to the Lord Advocate or the Secretary for Scotland if either of them is in a position to tell us.

The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. William Watson)

One of the points raised to-night was both raised and answered on the last occasion. In regard to the amount of money involved, to which the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Johnston) referred, I would ask him to add together the sums which he will find in the Seventh Schedule, and he will find the amount, except for the last item which I may inform him was about £90 last year


That was, of course, the annual sum. We were anxious to know the capital sum.


If the hon. Member will be a little patient and will give me time to conclude! I wish to remind the House, as I said on the last occasion, that even if this Amendment were accepted it would not interfere with the annual payments being made. On the other hand, it would make it practically certain that they would continue to be made and that no redemption could take place.

The only effect of this Financial Resolution is an enabling one. It will enable negotiations to take place between the Treasury and the Church with a view to their agreeing upon a capital sum for redemption of these annual payments. The continuation of these annual payments depends upon a part of the Bill which is not within the terms of the Financial Resolution at all. It will fall to be dealt with in Committee. All that we are dealing with is a power to negotiate to redeem these annual payments. If the power of negotiation which the Treasury are given is to be limited to the value of the life interest, which otherwise in the Bill is payable in perpetuity, then surely it is clear that the Treasury will have their power so hampered and restricted that it will not be worth while negotiating with the Church at all.

Nobody can tell exactly what the bargain at which the two will arrive. For one thing, it will have to be an agreement. The interest of the Treasury will be in keeping the number of years' purchase as low as possible, and the interest of the Church will be to keep them as high as possible. As was said by the Secretary for Scotland on the last occasion the Church will be lucky indeed if they get anywhere near 20 years' purchase of the annual payments. No one can say exactly what it will be. Probably it will be considerably less than that. But the question before the House now is whether you are going to give them power to negotiate for the redemption, by a capital sum, of payments which otherwise probably will be in perpetuity. So far as I may be in order I will deal with the points raised by the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Barr). I have a distinct recollection that I went as far as I was allowed by the Chairman in explaining the matter of the Bishops teinds and the mortgage to the Crown in 1690. The direction in which the hon. Member invites me to go seems to tend towards an argument as to whether they were at that time the property of the Church.


The hon. Member for Motherwell is estopped from that argument by moving this Amendment. We are now confined strictly to what is contained in the words of the Amendment.


Then the hon. Member for Motherwell referred to a part of the Haldane Report dealing with this matter, and seemed to speak with commendation of the suggestion in the Report that the Church ought, any way, to get a capital sum which would provide the full annual sum which they were getting. Whether that was the wish of the hon. Member or not, one thing certain is that they will not get that under this enabling power. Then the third and last question referred to by the hon. Member was the position of the Church in Scotland, the "Wee Frees," as they call them. The matter was not directly associated in the speech of my right hon. Friend with this particular fund, nor do they express anything further than an anticipation that the Church of Scotland, seeing that it is a national Church of Scotland and has a duty to the nation as a whole, if it finds that in a particular part of Scotland a portion of the community were not or could not be conveniently or adequately served by its administrations, and there is a sister Church with the same ideals and the same beliefs ready to take on the work it might assist it in that direction. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] That is greeted with acceptation, I think, on all hands, which seems to confirm the hope which my right hon. Friend had expressed with regard to that. On that point one cannot do anything more than express the hope. Having dealt fully with the points raised by hon. Members, I would now ask the House to give us this Report.


The Lord Advocate has given us certain figures. He seems to be a little bit annoyed at the way in which the hon. Member for Motherwell (Mr. Barr) always appears to forget that, unless this enabling power is given them, this money will go on being paid in perpetuity. I would suggest to him that, if we are going to give a capital sum to the Church, that capital sum should be so arranged that an attempt will be made to get equality between this annual sum, the value that that annual sum would have, and the capital sum that will be arranged. The right hon. Gentleman need not think that by introducing this reference to the payment being made in perpetuity, a far more tremendous sum is involved. I take it that what the Treasury and the Church will try to arrange is the exact sum. The point I would like some information on is this: The Church of Scotland at present as the national Church established has a certain responsibility towards all the people of Scotland, and the State has a certain responsibility with regard to that Church. If the Church does not fulfil its responsibility to the Scottish people it falls within the power of the State, the Government of the day, and the House of Commons, to take disciplinary steps with regard to the Church; but if we give this power to the Treasury and if this annual payment is capitalised and the capital sum is paid, and if this union takes place, how are we in future going to see that the Scottish Church, which has got this money, fulfils its duty, or what hold is the House of Commons or the State going to have over the Church to see that it is fulfilling its responsibility? If we can be given a little information as to the future relationships in this respect, whether I agree with the Lord Advocate or not, I will not do anything further to prolong the discussion. I would, however, like to know something with regard to this power that the State has at present in relation to the Established Church of Scotland.


The trust or the purpose for which all these moneys are paid is defined either by Statute or in the Warrant under which they are acting, and any diversion of the moneys from that purpose would be a breach of the trust.


So that we in a future House of Commons would have the opportunity of pointing, say, to some dereliction of responsibility on the part of the Church in carrying out its spiritual duties and dealing with the funds? This is a very important point. Some ordinary Members, some Members from South of the Tweed, may not know the importance of it in Scotland—the relationship of the State and the Church in future—and I would like the Lord Advocate to make it as clear as possible.


I have no doubt that hon. Members representing constituencies South of the Tweed equally know what a breach of trust is. A breach in the case of the Warrant would be followed by the ordinary consequences in the Courts of the country where it takes place. If the trust purposes are defined by Royal Warrant a breach might result in the withdrawal of the Royal Warrant; in the case of the Statute possibly the matter would go to the Courts of Law.


Is it not the whole purpose of this movement that this money capitalised will so become the property of the Church that, the State will never again be able to interfere with it or exercise discipline in regard to it?


I think that question is outside the scope of this Amendment.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The House divided: Ayes, 62; Noes, 194.

Division No. 49.] AYES. [11.0 p.m.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Forrest, W. Kelly, W. T.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Foster, Sir Harry S. Kennedy, T.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Fraser, Captain Ian Kidd, J- (Linlithgow)
Amnion, Charles George Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony King, Captain Henry Douglas
Attlee, Clement Richard Ganzoni, Sir John Knox, Sir Alfred
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Lansbury, George
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gates, Percy Lee, F.
Balniel, Lord Gibbins, Joseph Lindley, F. W.
Barnes, A. Gibbs. Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Loder, J. de V.
Barr, J. Gillett, George M. Lougher, L.
Batey, Joseph Gower, Sir Robert Lowth, T.
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Grace, John MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J.R. (Abaravon)
Bennett, A. J. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Bethell, A. Greenwood, William (Stockport) MacIntyre, Ian
Bird, E. B. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Grotrian, H. Brent, MacLaren, Andrew
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Grundy, T. W. McLean, Major A.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Macmillan, Captain H.
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Brittain, Sir Harry Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Broad, F. A. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. March, S.
Bromley, J. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Maxton, James
Brooke, Brigadier General C. R. I. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Milne. J. S. Wardlaw-
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Mitchell. E. Rosslyn (Paisley)
Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan Hammersley, S. S. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Burman, J. B. Hanbury, C. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Hardle, George D. Moore, Sir Newton J.
Bixton, Rt. Hon. Noel Harland, A. Moore-Brabazon. Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Harrison, G. J. C. Morden, Colonel Walter Grant
Calne, Gordon Hall Hastings, Sir Patrick Murnin, H.
Campbell, E. T. Hawke, John Anthony Nall, Lieut.Colonel Sir Joseph
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hayday, Arthur Naylor, T. E.
Charleton. H. C. Hayes, John Henry Nelson, Sir Frank
Christie, J. A. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Newman, Sir R. H. S. U. L. (Exeter)
Churchman, Sir Arthur C Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Clayton, G. C. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Nuttall, Ellis
Clowes, S. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Oakley, T.
Cluse, W. S. Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A O'Connor. T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Compton, Joseph Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Connolly, M. Hilton, Cecil Palin, John Henry
Couper, J. B. Hirst, G. H. Paling, W.
Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Crook, C. W. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Dalton, Hugh Hudson, Capt. A. U.M. (Hackney, N.) Plelou, D. P.
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whitch'n) Pilcher, G.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Ponsonby, Arthur
Day, Colonel Harry Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Potts, John S.
Drewe, C. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Radford, E. A.
Duncan, C Jacob, A. E. Raine. W.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Jephcott, A. R. Rees, Sir Beddoe
England, Colonel A. John, William (Rhondda, West) Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Finburgh, S. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Rice, Sir Frederick
Ford, P. J. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Riley, Ben Smith-Carlngton, Neville W. White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Ritson, J. Smithers, Waldron Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Roberts, E. H. Q. (Flint) Snell, Harry Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Stamford, T. W. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Ropner, Major L. Stephen, Campbell Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Williams. T. (York, Don Valley)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemourh) Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Saklatvala, Shapurji Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Salter, Dr. Alfred Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Sanderson, Sir Frank Sutton, J. E. Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Scurr, John Taylor, R. A. Windsor, Walter
Sexton, James Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Wise, Sir Fredric
Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.) Womersley, W. J.
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Tinker, John Joseph Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Wallhead, Richard C. Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Shepperson, E. W. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen Wright, W.
Shiels, Dr. Drummond Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Young, Robert (Lancaster. Newton)
Short, Alfred (Wednesday) Warrender, Sir Victor
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Sinclair,Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Sir W. Alexander and Mr. Neil
Slesser, Sir Henry H. Wells, S. R. Maclean.
Smillie, Robert Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut. Colonel Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Gretton, Colonel John Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Groves, T. Rawson, Alfred Cooper
Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Remer, J. R.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Beamish, Captain T. p. H. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Rose, Frank H.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Salmon, Major 1.
Blundell, F. N. Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Boothby, R. J. G. Hume, Sir G. H. Sandeman, A. Stewart
Briscoe, Richard George Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Brown, James (Ayr and Buts) Huntingfield, Lord Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Buckingham, Sir H. Hurd, Percy A. Scrymgeour, E.
Cautley, sir Henry S. Hutchison,G.A.Clark (Mldl'n & P'bl'S) Sitch, Charles H.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & KInc'dine, C.)
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Conway, Sir W. Martin Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sprot, Sir Alexander
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Lamb, J. Q. Storry Deans, R.
Curzon, Captain Viscount Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Dalkeith, Earl of Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Lunn, William Thurtle, E.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) MacAndrew, Charles Glen Turton, Edmund Russborough
Dixey, A. C. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (1. of W.) Varley, Frank B.
Doyle, Sir N. Grattan McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Dunnico, H. Mac Robert, Alexander M. Warne. G. H.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel Watts, Dr. T.
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Welsh, J. C.
Fenby, T. D. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Wheler, Major Granville C. H.
Fielden, E. B. Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K. Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Forestier-Walker, L. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York. W.R., Ripon)
Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Franele E. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Wragg, Herbert
Glyn. Major R. G. C. Murchison, C. K. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Grant, J. A. Neville, R. J.
Greenall, T. Pennefather, Sir John TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Greene, W. P. Crawford Perring, William George Mr. Macquisten and Lieut.-Colonol
McInnes Shaw.

Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution" put, and agreed to.

Division No. 50.] AYES. [11.41 p.m.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield. Hillsbro') Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Scrymgeour, E.
Barnes, A. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Sexton, James
Barr, J. John, William (Rhondda, Wast) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Batey, Joseph Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sitch, Charles H.
Buchanan, G. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Charleton, H. C. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Stephen, Campbell
Connolly, M. Kelly, W. T. Sutton, J. E.
Dalton. Hugh Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Taylor, R. A.
Day, Colonel Harry Lindley, F. W. Varley, Frank B.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Livingstone, A. M. Warne, G. H.
Fenby, T. D. MacLaren, Andrew Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Forrest, W. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Palin, John Henry Welsh, J. C.
Gibbins, Joseph Paling, W. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Gillett, George M. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Potts, John S. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Riley, Ben Windsor, Walter
Hamilton. Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Ritson, J.
Hardle. George D. Saklatvala, Shapurji TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Salter, Dr. Alfred Mr. Maxton and Mr. Johnston.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Gault, Lieut-Col. Andrew Hamilton Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Margesson, Captain D.
Albery, Irving James Glyn, Major R. G. C. Merriman, F. B.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Goff, Sir Park Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Grace, John Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Atholl, Duchess of Greene, W. P. Crawford Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Grotrian, H. Brent Moore, Sir Newton J.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Morden, Colonel Walter Grant
Balniel, Lord Hammersley, S. S. Nail, Lieut. Colonel Sir Joseph
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Nelson, Sir Frank
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Harland, A. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Beamish, Captain T. P. H. Harrison, G. J. C. Nuttall, Ellis
Bennett, A. J. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Oakley, T.
Bethell, A. Hawke, John Anthony Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Blundell, F. N. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Boothby, R. J. G. Henderson,Capt.R.R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Pennefather, Sir John
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Heneage. Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Briscoe, Richard George Henn, Sir Sydney H. Perkins. Colonel E. K.
Grittain. Sir Harry Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A. Pielou, D. P.
Broun-Lindsay. Major H. Herbert, S (York, N. M.,Scar. & Wh'by) Pilcher, G.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Preston. William
Burman, J. B. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Radford, E. A.
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Holt. Capt. H. P. Raine, W.
Campbell, E. T. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Rawson, Alfred Cooper
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Rees, Sir Beddoe
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Remer, J. R.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Rice, Sir Frederick
Christie, J. A. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hume. Sir G. H. Roberts. E. H. G. (Flint)
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Huntingfield, Lord Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)
Clayton, G. C. Hutchison,G.A.Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Ropner, Major L.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Cope, Major William Illiffe, Sir Edward M. Salmon, Major I.
Couper, J. B. Insklp, Sir Thomas Walker H. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Sanders. Sir Robert A.
Curzon, Captain Viscount Jacob, A. E. Sanderson, Sir Frank
Dalkeith, Earl of Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Davidson,J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) King, Captain Henry Douglas Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) Knox, Sir Alfred Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) Lamb, J. Q. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Dawson, Sir Philip Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R. Shepperson, E. W.
Dixey, A. C. Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Drewe, C. Loder, J. de V. Slesser. Sir Henry H.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Longher, L, Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & KInc'dine, C.)
Elliot, Captain Walter E. Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) MacAndrew, Charles Glen Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (l. of W.) Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Fielden, E. B. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Stanley. Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Finburgh, S. MacIntyre, Ian Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Fleming, D. P. McLean, Major A. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Ford, P. J. Macmillan, Captain H. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Mac Robert, Alexander M. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Ganzoni, Sir John
Wallace, Captain D. E. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York. W.R., Ripon)
Warrender, Sir Victor Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Wood, E. (Chest'r. Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Waterhouse, Captain Charles Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Wragg, Herbert
Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Watts, Dr. T. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Wells, S. R. Wise, Sir Fredrlc TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Wheter Major Granville C. H. Womersley, W. J. Colonel Gibbs and Captain Douglas
White. Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) Hacking

Resolution agreed to.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Ten Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.

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