§ Mr. SCURRI beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable local authorities to establish and maintain savings and housing banks; and for other purposes in connection therewith.When the Government is not doing its obvious duty, it becomes the province of the private Member to supplement what it is doing, and I am putting forward this Bill to-day because, in so far as municipal savings banks are concerned, we have a most excellent model from the city of Birmingham, and I think it is only right and just that the advantages of it may be able to be extended to every other municipality that desires to avail itself of the power. In this Measure there is no compulsion on any municipality to do this particular work, but unless, like Birmingham, they are able to promote an omnibus Bill in this House, and have on their side a very powerful influence, as the Birmingham Corporation had, and be able to get that Bill through quietly, without much notice being taken of these particular Clauses, there is not much opportunity for any other municipality to get this particular power. So far as the Birmingham bank is concerned, it has, since its inception five years ago, handled a sum, according to the last report, in December, of no less than £14,000,000. The transactions are transactions which concern small people, and certainly I think there ought to be advantages given for small people, so 246 that they may be able to invest their savings with that security which they know can be given to them by a municipality.In Birmingham, the transactions have amounted to £2,700,000, there are 160,000 depositors, and at their credit to-day is no less a sum than £5,000,000. It is really remarkable that, since the establishment of this bank, it has got 28 branches, whereas the Glasgow Trustees Savings Bank, one of the greatest trustee savings banks in the country, established as far back as 1836, has only 18 branches, and it finds itself hampered by reason of Government Regulations. The manager of the Birmingham Municipal Bank has stated that, if this system were only extended to other municipalities, these trustee banks might also have the same powers as the Birmingham Bank, which would be to the advantage of everyone. Further, in regard to housing, the Birmingham Municipal Bank has been of great advantage to the citizens of Birmingham in providing them with money for the purpose of building their houses. I find that there are no fewer than 765 people who borrowed last year from the Birmingham Bank, and no less a sum than £189,147 was advanced to them, at the low rate of 5 per cent. interest, with only a 10s. valuation fee. lion. Members opposite pride themselves on the fact that they would like to see every person able to buy his or her own house, and I hope, therefore, they are going to support this Measure, which will enable local authorities to do this very piece of work.
I think it is rather absurd that, if any Member of the public were to manufacture and supply half-crowns, although in those coins there might he a great deal more silver than the Government put into their half-crowns, he would certainly be arrested for coinage and sentenced to some term of imprisonment, but credit, which is really the money of our national life, and goes through all our great transactions, is allowed all the time to be in private hands, instead of being, where it ought to be, in the hands of the State and the municipalities. We cannot discuss, at this stage, the question of the national credit and of nationalising the whole of the banks, but where, in a good, sound;. Tory borough like Birmingham, they have carried out a municipal ad- 247 ministration of this kind, I feel sure the House will give a unanimous First Reading to this Measure, so that other boroughs may be able to follow suit.
§ Mr. GERALD HURSTThe hon. Member for Mile End (Mr. Scurr) has put his case, if T may say so with respect, very skilfully, but I think it would be a misfortune if leave were given the hon. Member to bring in his Bill, on the assumption that his proposals are unobjectionable and non-contentious. On the contrary, I think there are very grave objections to the scheme which he Las outlined to the House. His scheme, if carried through, would not only add to the already very large burdens on the shoulders of the local authorities, but would also constitute a direct invitation to local authorities to compete, and, if possible, to compete successfully, with those extraordinarily valuable voluntary agencies which are already carrying on this precise work through the length and breadth of the country. There may be many faults due to individualism, but, if there is one fine characteristic in the present individualist system in England, it lies in the wonderful work which the voluntary building societies and voluntary savings banks and penny banks are carrying out in the country, and particularly in the North of England. I have spent most of my life in the North of England, and I think that any hon. Member who represents a North of England constituency will realise the tremendous service which these voluntary societies have been carrying out for over a century past. They have carried into practice the principle that Heaven helps those who help themselves, and that work has been wonderfully well done.
Look at the building societies. There are over 1,000 building societies whose members are drawn almost entirely from the working classes. They practise in the building societies a splendid system of thrift which enables them to become
§ the owners of their own houses. Then you have savings banks, penny banks, all over the North of England, and also the Post Office Savings Bank, with something like 12,000,000 deposit accounts, nearly all belonging to people of very moderate means indeed. Nobody who knows the social conditions of industrial England will say for a moment that that work is not admirably well done. You have security for your deposits and your savings, and you have encouragement of thrift. Moreover, there is no profiteering, for the profits of the building societies and of the penny banks do not go to the rich capitalist at all. They are distributed among the members of the societies, over 90 per cent. of whom can be fairly described as themselves members of the working classes.
§ If that be so, what gain is derived by trying to introduce an external element to compete against these societies? The facilities are there, and this is one case, at all events, where individualism is above reproach. Nothing can be said against the existing system, and what advantage can anybody suggest will accrue from imposing yet one more obligation, in addition to the enormous number of obligations and burdens already resting on the shoulders of the local authorities? Let them get rid of their own pressing problems to-day, such as their housing commitments, and let them deal adequately and successfully with the thousand and one duties which at the present time confront them. I say there is no ease made out whatever for adding to these burdens a new obligation which is already met successfully by voluntary societies, with the good-will of all classes throughout industrial England.
§
Question put,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable local authorities to establish and maintain savings and housing banks, and for other purposes in connection therewith.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 111; Noes, 204.
249| Fenby, T. D. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Gillett, George M. | Macklnder, W. | Stamford, T. W. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Mac Laren, Andrew | Stephen, Campbell |
| Greenall, T. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Maxton, James | Thomson, Trevelyan (Middiesbro. W.) |
| Groves, T. | Montague, Frederick | Thurtle, E. |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydyll) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Hardle, George D. | Murnin, H. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Naylor, T. E. | Valley, Frank B. |
| Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) | Nelson, Sir Frank | Wallhead, Richa*d C. |
| Hastings, Sir Patrick | Oliver, George Harold | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Hayes, John Henry | Palin, John Henry | Warne, G. H. |
| Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Potts, John S. | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Hudson, I. H. Huddersfield | Radford, E. A. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) | Welsh, J. C. |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) | Westwood, J. |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Rose, Frank H. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Saklatvala, Shapurji | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly). | Salter, Dr. Alfrerd | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Kelly, W. T. | Scrymgeour, E. | Windsor, Walter |
| Kennedy, T. | Sexton, James | Womersley, W. J. |
| Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Kenyon, Barnet | Stile's, Dr. Drummond | Wright, W. |
| Kirkwood, D. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Livingstone, A. M. | Sltch, Charles H. | |
| Lowth, T. | Smillie, Robert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Lunn, William | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe) | Mr. Scurr and Mr. William |
| Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | Adamson. |
| Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham) |
| Sandeman, A. Stewart | Styles, Captain H. Walter | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Sanderson, Sir Frank | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid | Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd) |
| Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Tacker, Major R. Inlgo | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Savery, S. S. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W) | Thomson, Sir W.Mitchell-(Croydon,S.) | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) | Tinne, J. A. | Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) |
| Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) | Turton, Edmund Russborough | Wood, Rt. H on. E. (York, W. R., Ripon) |
| Sinclair, Col.T.(Queen's Unlv.,Belfst) | Waddington, R. | Wood, E.(Chest'r. Stalybdge & Hyde) |
| Skelton, A. N. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Slaney, Major P. Kenyon | Warrender, Sir Victor | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Smith-Carington, Neville W. | Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Smithers, Waldron | Watts, Dr. T. | |
| Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Wells, S. R. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Spender Clay, Colonel H. | White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dalrymple. | Mr. Gerald Hurst and Mr. Clarry. |
| Sprot, Sir Alexander |