HC Deb 03 March 1925 vol 181 cc227-32
38. Mr. WESTWOOD

asked the Secretary for Scotland if it is his intention to continue to allow Scottish prisons to be used for North of Ireland prisoners; and what is the nature of the jurisdiction exercised by an outside authority over such prisoners?

The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour)

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 26th February to a question by the hon. Member for Dewsbury. As regards the last part of the question, the Government of Northern Ireland are responsible for determining all questions regarding remission of the sentences which these prisoners are serving.

Mr. WESTWOOD

Is it not a fact that until this incident took place of Northern Ireland prisoners being kept in Scottish prisons the whole question of the remission of sentences or the release of prisoners was entirely in the hands of the

All the persons referred to in the Question are at present in Peterhead Prison The following Table gives the details for which the hon. Member inquires.
Name. Offence. Length of Sentence. Earliest date for liberation on licence.
Felix Byrne Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 7 years' P.S.; 6th October 1927
Walter Cullen Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 7 years' P.S. 6th October 1927

Secretary for Scotland, and is this not giving away a principle so far as the release of prisoners in Scottish prisons is concerned?

Sir J. GILMOUR

No, there have been previous cases where prisoners have been transferred.

Mr. MAXTON

Is there no possible way in which the hon. Gentleman can influence the Government of Northern Ireland to show some clemency towards these men?

40. Mr. LANSBURY

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the following persons are imprisoned in Peterhead Prison: Felix Bryne, Walter Cullen, James Curran, Thomas Conway, James Davis, P. Falls, John Flood, Charles Gellin, John Griffin, Frank Humphry, Patrick Johnson, John Kearney, Joseph Lee, Pat Leonard, P. McAlleer, John McGuire, Thomas McGuire, Thomas MoShea, James Monaghan, Pat Murray, Charles Reynolds, Jos. Reynolds, Fras. O'Reilly, James O'Reilly, William O'Reilly, Bernard Sweeney, John Simpson, and Thomas Trainer if so, if he will state the offences for which they have been sentenced; the length of sentence; how long a period in each case the prisoners yet have to serve; and what is the present state of health of each prisoner?

Sir J. GILMOUR

As the reply involves a tabular statement of some length, I propose, with the hob. Member's permission to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Colonel DAY

Does Scotland pay for the keep of these men, or the Government of Northern Ireland?

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Member had better put that question dawn.

The reply is as follows:

Name. Offence. Length of Sentence. Earliest date for liberation on licence.
James Curran … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 5 years' P.S. 14th December, 1925.
Thomas Conway … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 5 years' P.S. 14th December, 1925.
James Davis … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 5 years' P.S. 14th December, 1925.
Patrick Falls … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 5 years' P.S. 14th December, 1925.
Sean Flood … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 10 years' P.S. 28th October, 1929.
Charles Gillen … Larceny with violence and felonious possession of fire arms 5 years' P.S. 18th April, 1926.
John Griffen … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 10 years' P.S. 12th September, 1929.
Frank Hampsey … Larceny with violence and felonious possession of fire arms 5 years' P.S. 18th April, 1926.
Patrick Johnston … Murder 15 years' P.S. 3rd March, 1933.
John Kiernan … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 5 years' P.S. 12th December, 1925.
Joseph Lee … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 7 years' P.S. 13th June, 1927.
Patrick Leonard … Murder P.S. for Life (death sentence commuted).
Patrick McAleer … Larceny with violence and felonious possession of fire arms 5 years' P.S. 18th April, 1926.
John Maguire … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 8 years' P.S. 13th March, 1928.
Thomas Maquire … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 5 years' P.S. 14th December, 1925.
Thomas McShea … Murder 15 years' P.S. (death sentence commited). 3rd March, 1933.
James Monaghan … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 7 years' P.S. 3rd June, 1927.
Patrick Murray … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 6 years' P.S. 2nd September, 1926.
Charles Reynolds … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 8 years' P.S. 13th March, 1928.
Joseph Reynolds … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 8 years' P.S. 13th March, 1928.
Frank Reilly … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 8 years' P.S. 13th March, 1928.
James Reilly … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 7 years' P.S. 13th March, 1928.
William Reilly … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 5 years' P.S. 12th December, 1925.
Bernard Sweeny … Felonious possession of firearms, etc. 8 years' P.S. 13th March, 1928.
John Simpson … Possession of explosive substances 5 years' P.S. 25th January, 1926.
Thomas Trainor … Possession of explosive substances 4 years' P.S. 17th July, 1925.

Present state of Health.—The health of all these prisoners is reported to be satisfactory or to be the same as on admission, except in the case of Thomas Trainor. Trainor's health is reported to be not so good as on admission, due to tuberculosis contracted before admission to Peterhead.

41. Mr. LEES SMITH

asked the Secretary for Scotland by what authority and under whose orders political prisoners sentenced in Northern Ireland are imprisoned in Peterhead Gaol?

Sir J. GILMOUR

The authority for the detention in Peterhead Prison of prisoners sentenced in Northern Ireland is contained in the Penal Servitude Acts. These prisoners have been received in Peterhead Prison on the instructions of the Secretary for Scotland in pursuance of an agreement with the Government of Northern Ireland. No prisoners are classified as "political."

Mr. SMITH

Has the right hon. Gentleman satisfied himself that as Northern Ireland is now under a separate jurisdiction—[HON. MEMBERS: "No. Partly."]—by the Act of 1920, he has any legal power to make any such arrangement?

Sir J. GILMOUR

Yes, Sir. Under the Penal Servitude Act.

Mr. STEPHEN

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what are the terms of the agreement between himself and the Northern Ireland Government, and will he circulate the terms of the agreement?

Sir J. GILMOUR

The agreement is that we look after the prisoners and that they are subject to Scottish rules as long as they are in Scottish prisons.

Mr. STEPHEN

Can we have a copy of the terms?

Mr. MAXTON

I want to put a question to you, Mr. Speaker. We have tried for over two years to get this question effectively heard in this House, and the matter has been steadily pushed aside by Cabinet Ministers of one party or another. Is there any effective means inside the constitution of this country by which we can raise this grievance, and get a. proper attitude taken towards it?

Mr. SPEAKER

As far as any action of the Secretary for Scotland is concerned, he is open to be questioned on Thursday of this week or on Monday of next week.

Mr. MACLEAN

Questions have been put to the Table as to the circumstances relating to the Government of Northern Ireland and His Majesty's Government, and they have been refused at the Table on the ground that, as Northern Ireland is practically a self-governing Colony, nobody in this House has anything to do with it, and no one in this House can answer any question relating to it. [Hons. MEMBERS "Speech!"] Hold your tongues. I will not sit down for any of you—Gentlemen of England.

Mr. SPEAKER

The hon. Member has heard me say many times that, where the duty of maintaining law and order has been transferred to another Government. it is not open to this House to discuss or criticise their action. What I have said is that any action which comes within the province of the Secretary for Scotland can be dealt with on Thursday next and on Monday next.