PENSIONS IN WALES. (Hansard, 2 March 1925)

§ Mr. F. O. ROBERTS
I regret cause of absence of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions, and am very sorry to have to trouble the House at this late hour on a matter which was brought to the notice of the House on Wednesday evening, the 18th February. But there are one or two statements which I desire to correct-, and, in the absence of my right hon. Friend, I would like to call the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the OFFICIAL REPORT of the 18th February. Attention had been drawn to the closing of the Welsh regional pensions office at a certain period of this year. The hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Griffiths) had addressed a certain question to the Minister of Pensions as to the- responsibility for the closing of the office, and asking whether it was not possible for the matter to be reconsidered. The right hon. Gentleman said he could not reconsider this matter, because the late Minister of Pensions had already decided on this. A subsequent question addressed to the right hon. Gentleman was as follows: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor had promised to reconsider the matter with a deputation of Welsh Members? The Minister of Pensions replied: No. I can contradict that, because I have seen the file."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th February, 1925; col. 1244, Vol. 180.] As I was holding office from January last year until the early part of November, I would like emphatically to say that there is no truth at all in the suggestion that I had actually taken a decision to close this office. Then I see a statement appearing in the Welsh Press yesterday which reiterates, apparently on the authority of the Ministry, that I had taken a definite decision in this matter, and that I had been playing a double game in connection with the Welsh region. I am sorry, therefore, that I have no option but to make the matter quite clear to the House.
The question of the abolition of the Welsh region was one that was brought to my personal notice, if not on the first day, at any rate in the very early days 194 of my entry into Department. If my recollection is right—and I think I am correct in this—I remember seeing papers which showed that the abolition of the pensions regions was under discussion by my hon. and gallant Friend when he formerly held that office in 1923. It was then agreed that the Welsh region would be one of the first that would have to go. I next dealt with this matter after it had been brought to my notice, either in the last week in January, 1924, or in the early days of February, and I resolved that no immediate action should be taken to deal with the matter. The next stage was when I met the Welsh 'region representatives at a conference in Wales in May. I then told the representatives assembled that I should not close the region until I had had the opportunity of meeting all those who were concerned. I used these words: Any steps which reduced the number of regional headquarters would not fail to add to the importance and responsibility of the Pensions Department and the area officers. No regional headquarters would be abolished until the Ministry were assured that the ex-service men and their dependants would be as well served under the change as they were under the existing system. I used those words because I had no wish to take any sort of hasty action at all; and I had not come to the conclusion then that it was desirable that immediate steps should he taken. The next move was on 25th July, 1924, when I received a deputation of Welsh members. I subsequently wrote a considered reply to their secretary, one of the 'Welsh members. This is the concluding part of my letter: In conclusion I should like to say that I have no desire that the transfer should be rushed through. although I regard it as inevitable. The matter will certainly be discussed by the newly appointed Advisory Council for Wales. It is not my intention that any definite announcement of the transfer should be made until after the Recess. I understand that some construction has been placed upon the word "inevitable" which was certainly not in my mind when I put it into my communication. My own intention, I thought, was made perfectly clear in the latter portion of the sentence, when I told the members of the deputation that no action should be taken until after the Recess. I want to make the position even a little clearer than that, if I can. The matter was 195 raised during the General Election. One. can readily understand that in the rush of an election it is not possible to have that ready approach to papers which is always necessary to make a position quite clear and definite, but a considered reply was sent for publication in the Press in Wales, and this is an extract from that letter: Mr. Robert; has not made any announcement that the regional office is to be abolished. He has, however, indicated his view that this step will be justified in the near future. At the same time he has made it perfectly clear that there must first be full discussion with the Welsh Advisory Council, which is fully representative of all sections of people interested in pensions administration in Wales. And then a later sentence in the letter says: It has, however, all along been his intention"— that is my intention —"to meet the Welsh Advisory Council personally, and a special meeting of the Council was called for that purpose on 14th October. Unfortunately, the dissolution of Parliament and the General Election compelled Mr. Roberts to cancel his attendance at that meeting. Subsequently various inquiries were addressed to me through the post, by telephone and by telegram because of the considerable national agitation which had been aroused in Wales, and in answer to those inquiries a reply was sent as follows under my direction: Certainly no step will be taken"— that is, towards closing the Welsh Region, —" without meeting the Advisory Council. All statements that anything else was or is intended are absolutely false. On 27th October a further statement was submitted to me, and my reply to that, in part, was as follows: The statement that the work of closing down the Welsh Region is proceeding is untrue. The next step I felt compelled to take was in answer to a communication which was addressed to me by Mr. Nelson Price, the Chairman of the Welsh Advisory Council. I wrote to Mr. Price on 6th November: The decision of the abolition or continuance of the Welsh Regional headquarters of the Ministry of Pensions will now lie in other, hands than mine, and I can only refer to the subject in order to meet some of the misstatements which appear to have been made. 196 And then there is another paragraph in the same letter: A more serious statement is this, that the regional work is being quietly transferred, little by little, to London, and that the secret abolition of the region 36 therefore taking place. That is altogether untrue. No step of any sort has yet been taken to abolish the region. It seems to me that a great measure of misunderstanding, to use the mildest word, has arisen in connection with this matter, but I do want to state personally and most emphatically that I have taken no decision to close the Welsh Region. All I would like to point out to my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary is this, that if I had taken any decision in the matter it would not have been necessary for him to take another, but I understand he has found the position such that he was compelled to take a decision with regard to the closing, and that that decision was not taken until the early weeks of this year. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will find that the statements I have made, in consultation with the papers, are quite accurate. I trust that the House will accept the personal explanation I have made in this matter.

Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN
The hon. Gentleman for West Bromwich has without. any doubt cleared up the matter with respect to where and when and by whom the decision with regard, first of all, to the removal of some of the existing regions and amalgamating them with other regions, and also the abolition of regions altogether, has taken place. Upon several occasions when we have raised this matter we have been dealing with that phase of it, and what I want to do now is to point out that the last time I ventured to address the House one of the great London dailies, the "Times," made me appear to look very foolish with regard to some of the figures which I gave. I think I am well within the recollection of the House when I say that I mentioned that over 18,000 men went to the King's Service during the late Great War. "The Times" said that I took fourteen men out to the War, and they all came back disabled, and that it was almost an incredible thing. What I did say was that out of these 18,000 who went to the King's Service during the War 1,400 were to-day in receipt of parish relief, because they were disabled and unable to work.
197 In the Rhondda Valley district we have a sub-office dealing with pensions, and it may be interesting to know that, although we have only a sub-office, they have dealt with 12,243 case papers relating to men who were in the War, or their widows or their orphan children. That is the reason we are so keen and energetic with regard to retaining the Welsh Region at least to be the last to be removed if they are to be done away with.
May I point out how we are dealt with in Wales? There are seven entitlement court tribunals and eight assessment Courts. In these tribunals there are 75 people employed, consisting of chairmen, medical men, military men, secretaries and so forth out of that total of 75, five only are able to understand or speak Welsh. After last Saturday only four are left, and in neither of the two Courts left is there a single military service man able to speak or understand the Welsh language. There are other figures that I could give, but I will not do so now. In these two Courts there is not a single Welsh-speaking person able to understand the language of the people with whom they have to deal.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS (Lieut.-Colonel Stanley)
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. and gallant Member, but I wish to answer the criticisms which have been made. Let me, first of all, apologise for the absence of the Minister of Pensions. Naturally, he would have been here, but he has fallen a victim to the prevailing epidemic of influenza. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. F. O. Roberts) has most clearly and correctly stated what has happened. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions, in answer to an interjection which was made very late at night, did say that he could not change the decision because the late Minister of Pensions had already decided on it. I am quite sure the right hon. Gentleman will absolve my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions for any intention of misrepresenting him. for anyone who knows my right hon. Friend knows that that would be the last thing he would like to do. The Minister of Pensions was under a misapprehension, which I myself shared, owing to certain statements which the right. hon. Gentleman opposite has referred to to-night. For instance, there was the 198 letter which he sent to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Rhondda West (Mr. John), in the earlier part of which he stated that it was the definite policy of the Ministry, in which he entirely concurred, that all the regional headquarters in course of time should be absorbed in the central office in London. And then he went on to say what the right hon. Gentleman has just quoted. The Press communiqu´, which was issued on the 20th of October, contained the statement which the right hon. Gentleman has just read. I am bound to say that when I read that I thought it meant that he had come to a definite decision. But after what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and on further reflection, I see that I have taken the wrong view and that my right hon. Friend has done the same, and that what the right hon. Gentleman was really saying was that it. was his personal opinion, but that he had not come to any definite decision at that time. If my right hon. Friend had been here to-night he would wish me, as he has already asked me, to express his regret to the right hon. Gentleman that he should have been misled and made a statement which has caused people to think the right hon. Gentleman has been playing a double game, which he has certainly not been doing. The decision was one which was not easy to come to. It required very considerable thought and it had been under consideration for a very long time, as the right hon. Gentleman himself said when he went to see the newly-formed Welsh Advisory Council. He foreshadowed then that the region would have to be done away with. He foreshadowed it again in a letter he sent to the hon. Member for Rhondda West, and once more in the Press communiqué. Under those circumstances, when my right. hon. Friend came to be Minister, he had obviously to take up the question at the point where it was left by the right hon. Gentleman. He came to the decision that the Welsh Region should in its turn be done away with, and the Ministry have carried out the spirit of the right hon. Gentleman entirely, because before it was actually definitely decided on, I went down as his deputy and saw the. Welsh Advisory Council, which the right hon. Gentleman had intended to do if it had not been for the, for him I suppose, unfortunate circumstance of the General 199 Election. I hope that, will dispose of the point the right hon. Gentleman himself raised.

§ Mr. F. ROBERTS
May I mention that the original decision to close the Welsh Region was taken some time in the year 1923, before I went to the Ministry. That was the general policy and I followed on the general policy which had been laid down.

Lieut. Colonel STANLEY
Certainly. A general policy had been adopted.

Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN
And Nottingham was removed in the first week in November.

§ Mr. MORRIS
The hon. and gallant Gentleman has said that he went down and met. the advisory council. Did he accept the decision of the advisory council when he met them?

Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY
No, although one goes down and accepts advice from them, a Minister is bound to carry out administrative action himself. He must take the administrative responsibility, and he cannot be told afterwards that he ought to have taken advice that he considered to be wrong. Therefore, I think my right hon. Friend was quite within his rights in carrying out what he considered was the proper administrative course. I now want to refer briefly to what the hon. and gallant Member for East Rhondda (Lieut.-Colonel Watts-Morgan) said. The misstatement in the paper was not any fault of the Ministry.

Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN
Oh, no.

Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY
But we quite realise that it was a mistake, although it had nothing to do with the removal of the Welsh region. The hon. and gallant Member mentioned that in two different Tribunals—there are seven Entitlement Tribunals and eight Assessment Tribunals—there are 75 people employed, of whom five only are able to speak Welsh. As I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows, these Tribunals are not set up by the Ministry of Pensions— they are not under the jurisdiction of the Ministry. In fact they are above it altogether. They are set up by the Lord Chancellor.

Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGAN
Perhaps I had better put on a suit of armour and go to the Woolsack!

Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY
I am not sure that the hon. and gallant. Gentleman wants that. I think he would tackle them without it, but I might mention that we met the Welsh National party the other day and made a recommendation to them, and if they will adopt that we will do our best to see that this particular point is remedied. We have, however, no power over those Tribunals.