HC Deb 22 June 1925 vol 185 cc1221-33

Easter offerings voluntarily paid to ministers of religion shall be exempt from Income Tax.—[Mr. Rawlinson.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. RAWLINSON

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

I had the privilege last year of moving a new Clause in somewhat similar terms, and I had the satisfaction on that occasion of having, I think, 170 Members of the party to which I belong in the Lobby with me, and, in addition, I got the admission from the then Chancellor of the Exchequer that in the restricted form in which I am moving it to-night the new Clause would cause an expenditure to the Exchequer so negligible that it was unnecessary to give the exact figure. I assume that that meant a sum which was negligible to the Exchequer, but to the people for whom I am speaking it is by no means negligible, and it involves a very irritating and objectionable form of taxation. For these reasons I have some hope that the Government may give me assistance to-night in connection with my proposal. The facts are, shortly, these: Easter offerings are of very long standing. For many hundreds of years Easter offerings have been given by custom to certain ministers of religion. Nobody ever thought they were subject to Income Tax until the year 1907. For a good many years people were under the impression that they were not liable, and Income Tax was never asked for and never paid.

In 1907 when the question was first raised, the Commissioners of Income Tax, who are the guardians of the subject as against the Crown, decided that Easter offerings were not liable to Income Tax, and from that decision the Crown appealed to Mr. Justice Bray—whom I regard as one of the best Judges I remember during my time. He decided in the same way, and so there was a pretty strong consensus of opinion that the offerings were not liable. The Government appealed against that finding and the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords found in favour of the Government, though the Judges, especially in the Court of Appeal, expressed the greatest regret at having to come to that conclusion. It was said that though it might not be the intention of the Legislature, the law was drawn in such a way that Easter offerings in the form in which they were then given were liable to tax. I think that one of the Lord Justices said he was particularly sorry, because the country clergy paid far more in rates and taxes on their income than probably any other class of the community. Be that as it may, this was the first alteration in this respect. Nobody until then had dreamt that these offerings were taxable, and for the first time they were made to pay taxes. I am now asking the House to reverse that decision and to come back to the old practice under which these offerings were not liable.

In addition to the broad justice of the case there is the point that this is a purely voluntary payment and as such should not be subject to taxation. I submit that there has to be a great refinement of the law in order to show that they are taxable. If a voluntary payment for services rendered were made at any other time of the year it would be exempt, but as I understand it, a voluntary payment for services rendered made at a customary time of year brings it within the scope of taxation. I say that is a close refinement of the law and it leads to many attempts to avoid coming within the scope of the tax. This evening I had the privilege of talking the matter over with many hon. Members who were showing ways in which they honestly thought this tax could be evaded. That is one of the difficulties which we have to deal with. If a person wishes to make this annual contribution without rendering the clergyman subject to this tax, instead of paying it in the ordinary way with the other offerings at Easter he can send a cheque at some other period of the year and say nothing about it. That payment would not be liable to tax at all, but would be in the same position as a gift such as could be made to anybody else without being liable to taxation. Therefore it lends itself in that way to legitimate evasion, and further than that it also forms a colorable evasion. It will be said against me, "Why trouble the Government with laws of this kind when you can evade them in such a simple way by making the collection at a later time of the year?" There are many answers to that, among them, I think, that if a man does not make his contribution at the customary time when the churchwarden calls upon him to get his collection and says, "I will make it up at a later date," honestly meaning to make it up. One honestly forgets, or death comes, or marriage, or some other calamity. In addition to that there are some people mean enough to make an excuse of that kind and say, "I will pay later on," and do not pay. I do ask this concession at the hands of the Government. Its cost is negligible. It is obviously an unjust tax. Whatever the technical effect may be, everybody knows that it is simply a voluntary gift given by way of a present to the clergyman of the parish. Merely because it is given him in consideration of services which he has rendered it becomes taxable, whereas if it can be shown to be given as a mere gift to him or his children it is not taxable. I do ask the Government to allow this very small concession to the clergy who deserve well at the hands of the community at large.

Sir H. SLESSER

I beg to second the Motion.

In supporting this new Clause I should like to make it clear at the outset that although I am speaking from this bench I am supporting it entirely on my own responsibility. You have here a technical decision that the gift is a profit accruing out of the office of a clergyman. That is the technical legal decision and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Rawlinson) said, we do not quarrel with that legal decision, indeed, we cannot, because the House of Lords has decided that it is the law, but we do ask the House here to remedy technicalities to consider the reality of the case. So far from it accruing out of office, it is given by the people who present it to the particular minister as a gift. It is a voluntary offering. That is the very nature of it, and whether it be technically a profit or not the whole value and virtue of this offering is its voluntary nature. It is quite obvious as my right hon. and learned Friend has said, it can easily and rapidly escape the effect of this decision merely by giving it on another day. Not only that, I submit that it is a technical absurdity. There is no other profit accruing out of office like this.

It is quite true that the law as it exists was intended to cover cases where you had profits accruing out of office which was not definitely agreed to as part of the contract. But surely this decision is a decidedly different one. You are dealing first of all with a number of persons who are for the most part extremely poor, probably the poorest of all classes of professional men, I would even say with due respect to some of my friends poorer than a good many skilled workmen, and the very purpose of this is to supplement that very inadequate stipend by voluntary gifts. It is said that it is a profit and must be taxed. We ask the Government not to treat this proposal with derision, but to consider very carefully whether there was not some reason why for fifty years these gifts were undisturbed until some over-enthusiastic surveyor discovered this technical means of reducing this voluntary gift. From 1840 to 1907 gifts of this type were untaxed, and by this highly technical decision it has now imposed upon it a disability, and we do ask the Government to say that in future these Easter offerings voluntarily paid to ministers of religion should be exempt from taxation. For that purpose I have great pleasure in supporting the Motion.

Mr. GUINNESS

I am sure no Government could treat this matter in the spirit suggested, and I am equally sure it will command the sympathy of every Member of this House. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] I believe it does, because if people have no religion they must appreciate that, whereas other members of the community, with the rapidly soaring prices and increases paid during the War, got something to compensate them, higher wages, these ministers in many cases were left to take the extra burden with no increase at all. The condition laid down in 1909 by the House of Lords was that these ministers were liable to Income Tax, and that the gifts were profits accruing by reason of their office. The hon. and learned Member for South-East Leeds (Sir H. Slesser) has just stated it was raised incidentally owing to the zeal of some Income Tax official. Since then it has been considered by an impartial tribunal, and the Royal Commission on Income Tax gave a good deal of attention to this particular claim. They said: It is in our opinion impossible to ignore the plain sense of the position, which is that Easter offerings are paid to a clergyman because he is a clergyman and only so long as he remains a clergyman. Of two incumbents with emoluments and income otherwise equal, one of whom receive £100 from Easter offerings and the other nothing, to pretend that the taxable ability of the first is not greater than that of the second is to shut one's eyes to reality and give undue weight to a natural sentiment. After all these Easter offerings are not haphazard donations. They are regular and reliable. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] Just let me develop my reasons for saying that. I probably know less than hon. Members and am open to correction. I say they are regular and reliable. In giving my reasons for saying that I do not profess to have the knowledge which hon. Members who contradict me have. I sent for "Crockford" only a few minutes ago, and I find in "Crockford" Easter offerings are put down at a certain figure. I take one case at random.

Sir H. SLESSER

"Crockford" is not evidence.

Mr. GUINNESS

Why not? I should have thought it was evidence as to the expectancy of Easter offerings. Surely they would not put in Easter offerings in all those cases unless they were more or less to be expected. I have here the case of a living where the gross income is £429 and the Easter offerings £53. Here is another instance, on the same page, with a gross income of £390, but this poorer living does not enjoy a larger income from Easter offerings; it only enjoys an Easter offering of £2. Obviously, if we are going to exclude Easter offerings from our assessment of the capacity to pay, we shall make even greater hardships as between the richer and poorer livings.

Mr. D. HERBERT

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether Crockford states what is the meaning of this statement, whether it is an average or not?

Mr. GUINNESS

I am afraid I have not looked into that. I admit I have not, but I thought it was admitted that Crockford was an authority on the subject and I only give it for what it is worth, that Easter offerings are no doubt a part of the expectation of income of any incumbent receiving them. I agree that it may be only an average, but I do not think that really affects the point that, once you get away from really assessing liability to Income Tax, you are landed in all kinds of difficulties, injustices and complications. It is quite true, as the right hon. Member for Cambridge University. (Mr. Rawlinson) stated, in moving the Clause, that the cost of it in this form would be negligible. I do not believe it would amount to more than £15,000 a year, but I cannot believe that it would remain at that, because, after all, there are other denominations, which do not now have Easter offerings at all. If there were this exception, they could transfer their remuneration from existing methods to that of Easter offerings. I believe that it would be certain to apply to Nonconformists, and nobody could blame them. In fact, it would be perfectly natural and legitimate if, under the protection of this Clause, they avoided—it would not be evaded—Income Tax by transferring their payment to the form of Easter offerings.

Mr. RAWLINSON

The difficulty there is that, as it is now, a Nonconformist minister, rightly, has a contract of service at so much a year. [An HON. MEMBER: "There is no general contract."] There is certainly an arrangement as to the remuneration, and if a voluntary offering were put up after that, I should have no objection.

Mr. GUINNESS

I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman is accurate as to the existing system, but I cannot think that that system would long survive the temptation of a transformation, nor can I believe that the Roman Catholic priests, who now enjoy incomes merely from voluntary offerings, would long deprive themselves of advantage under this proposed concession. After all, the right hon. Gentleman quite frankly told us that Members of this House had talked to him about how you could evade Income Tax, and we have to recognise the fact that if, with the best of motives, we give concessions which are not watertight, people will stretch them to their utmost capacity. I do not think it would be reasonable or in the interests of the respect which we all feel for ministers of religion, to encourage them in a way like this towards the legal evasion of paying Income Tax like everybody else, and I believe we have made a far wiser contribution to the hard lot of ministers of religion, and other people with small earned incomes, by the remissions which we have made this year, which are not limited to a particular class like ministers of religion, or to a particular category of incomes like Easter offerings. For these reasons, much as I sympathise with the object of helping these struggling ministers, whose financial situation, pitiable in the extreme, is left very much as it was before the War, in spite of the increased cost of living, I regret that, for reasons of head rather than of heart, I am obliged to ask the House to reject the Clause.

Lord HUGH CECIL

I cannot think that what my right hon. Friend said is very convincing. He argues that, because ministers, according to legal right, receive certain incomes which resemble in amount, and in the purpose for which they are applied, Easter offerings, and are taxed upon them, it is unreasonable to exempt from taxation what is really a voluntary gift. Surely the true distinction for the purpose of the Income Tax—and, I thought, the distinction that was made right through the incidence of the Income Tax—is between a voluntary gift and an income upon which you can rely by law and recover, if necessary, from the persons owing it. For example, supposing a rich man gives an allowance to a son of £500 a year. The son is exempt from Income Tax as long as it is only an allowance, but when the rich man dies and leaves securities to the son bringing in precisely the same income, the son becomes liable to Income Tax, although the income is no larger, perhaps, than it was before.

Mr. GUINNESS

The income never escaped; the father paid it.

Lord H. CECIL

So do the people who make Easter offerings. The whole theory of Income Tax seems incoherent if you think of it like that. It strikes in here and there, in the perpetual course of wealth, round and round, and the moment you begin to pursue the individual piece of money in its passage from pocket to pocket, you get into a complete state of chaos. The idea of Income Tax is that people are taxed on the income which is legally theirs, the income to which they have a legal right in the Courts of Law, but where it is a purely voluntary gift, no tax ought to be levied, and obviously it is quite a different thing, because, in the case of Easter offerings, a man cannot count on them. If he quarrels with his parishioners, or if he is not a successful preacher, whereas the previous incumbent was a successful preacher, the Easter offerings may, and in point of fact do, go down, and he cannot count on them. People are perfectly free in the matter, and they can give or they can withhold as they like. I myself give an Easter offering, but it is voluntary, and if I happen to be forgetful it is not given till later in the year, and I do not know if it counts as an Easter offering when it is not given, say, till June. Perhaps it does not, but it is a perfectly voluntary payment, which anybody may make or withhold, and it seems to me that that is the true distinction.

When I am told that Nonconformists and Roman Catholics would be equally entitled to the concession, I say they should be if they are really voluntary payments, and if really it is open to people to give or to withhold them. If you go into the market and say: "I will hire your services as a minister of religion and promise you so much," that, of course, is a legally enforceable contract which you may be required to fulfil, and accordingly the income dependent on it is a legal income, and not a voluntary gift. But if a minister of a Nonconformist chapel, or a Roman Catholic minister, takes his office relying on the goodwill of his people, I think he ought to be exempt, because he has no security, and depends from year to year on what people choose to give him, and any change of circumstances would naturally impoverish him. I do not think the argument of the right hon. Gentleman really convinces, and it is rather foolish of the Treasury to go on year after year opposing a concession which would cost them very little, and is very invidious to refuse. They draw a distinction which no others but themselves seem to see, and enforce it against taxpayers who are the object, as my right hon. Friend him self has justly said, of general sympathy. Accordingly, I cannot help thinking that we should do a kindness to the Government if we overruled them. Probably the Members of the Government care nothing about it. It is the decision of the Treasury to which they give expression, and I suggest to my hon. Friends that they would do wisely, and, in the end, kindly, by the Government, if they vote against them on this occasion, and carry the Clause which my right hon. and learned Friend has so ably put forward.

Mr. D. HERBERT

I, too, am very disappointed with the position the Government have taken up with regard to this matter. It is an old grievance, brought forward year after year, and we always get the same kind of argument, that, if the concession be made, advantage will be taken of it. We now have got a Government who hope to remain in office several years, and I trust, when another year comes, they will themeslves draft a Clause which will be watertight, and cannot be stretched for purposes for which it is not intended. The right hon. Gentleman, who has referred to a rich man making an allowance to his son, and afterwards making a settlement, has drawn attention to an argument which affects this matter. The most wealthy people in a parish, we will say, bind themselves together to become parties to a scheme under which they undertake to find so much a year. That can be deducted from income. It is only one of many ways where people can avoid payment of the tax. A great objection to this that it offends against one of the best canons of taxation, in view of the absolute uncertainty and consequent unfairness with which it can be collected. There is not the least doubt that an immense amount of this money, which we call Easter offerings, does avoid taxation at the present time by methods which every party concerned, the party paying and the party receiving, firmly believes to be good according to law.

It seems to me it would not be very difficult to draw up some Clause which should exempt purely voluntary payments which are not those upon the security of which the Minister accepts his office. That is a very wide way of putting it, but I cannot help thinking a Clause might be drawn up which would meet that particular point. As the law stands at present, the thing is almost too absurd for words. The rich man at Christmas-time gives Christmas boxes to his neighbours and friends, his gamekeeper or his butler, but if he chooses to give an offering to the man who happens to be the parson of the parish it it treated differently. I hope the Government at least will see their way before another year comes to bring forward on their own motion some Clause which will exempt from taxation purely voluntary payments which are not really relied upon with any certainty by the recipient when he accepts his office.

Mr. D. GRENFELL

I wish to give some reason for opposing the Amendment. I do not see why a Nonconformist minister, who gets £400 a year, should be taxed on, say, £200, while, at the same time, a minister of the Church of England or the Church of Wales who draws the same income, should only be taxed on £100, because one gets it in the form of Easter offerings. He enjoys the same standard of living. It is paid to him as a condition of his service in the church. I do not see why any church should be given a preference in this way. I hope I shall not be thought irreverant if I connect the system of tipping with Easter offerings, but the question has occurred to me that a very popular waiter in a high-class restaurant who gets an income, say, of £2 or £3 a week, and makes £5, £6 or even £10 a week in tips in addition, what kind of account would he submit for Income Tax purposes? Will he be exempted because they are voluntary offerings? It is an invidious distinction to make between one form of income and another. As one brought up in a country where Nonconformity has prevailed, and where the spirit of Nonconformity exists at the present time, I oppose this Clause.

Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The House divided: Ayes, 109; Noes, 260.

Division No. 198.] AYES. [9.11 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hayes, John Henry Rose, Frank H.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Saklatvala, Shapurji
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Scrymgeour, E.
Ammon, Charles George Hirst, G. H. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Attlee, Clement Richard Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Smillie, Robert
Barnes, A. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Barr, J. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Batey, Joseph John, William (Rhondda, West) Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Snell, Harry
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Stamford, T. W.
Broad, F. A. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Stephen, Campbell
Charleton, H. C. Kelly, W. T. Sutton, J. E.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Kennedy, T. Taylor, R. A.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Kenyon, Barnet Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Connolly, M. Lansbury, George Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)
Cove, W. G. Lawson, John James Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Crawfurd, H. E. Livingstone, A. M. Thurtle, E.
Dalton, Hugh Lowth, T. Tinker, John Joseph
Day, Colonel Harry Lunn, William Varley, Frank B.
Dennison, R. Mackinder, W. Viant, S. P.
Duncan, C. MacLaren, Andrew Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Edwards, John H. (Accrington) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Warne, G. H.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) March, S. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Forrest, W. Maxton, James Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Montague, Frederick Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Gillett, George M. Morris, R. H. Westwood, J.
Gosling, Harry Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Whiteley, W.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Naylor, T. E. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Greenall, T. Oliver, George Harold Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Palin, John Henry Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Groves, T. Paling, W. Windsor, Walter
Grundy, T. W. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wright, W.
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Ponsonby, Arthur
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Potts, John S. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hardie, George D. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Mr. T. Griffiths and Mr. George Hall.
Harris, Percy A. Riley, Ben
Hayday, Arthur Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Elveden, Viscount Malone, Major P. B.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Albery Irving James Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Merriman, F. B.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E. Everard, W. Lindsay Meyer, Sir Frank
Astor Viscountess Fairfax, Captain J. G. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-
Atholl Duchess of Falle, Sir Bertram G. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Baldwin Rt. Hon. Stanley Fielden, E. B. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Balfour George (Hampstead) Finburgh, S. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Balniel, Lord Fleming, D. P. Moore, Sir Newton J.
Banks, Reginald Mitchell Ford, P. J. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Barclay-Harvey C. M. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Morden, Colonel Walter Grant
Barnett Major Richard Foster, Sir Harry S. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Beamish Captain T. P. H. Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Murchison, C. K.
Bennett, A. J. Ganzonl, Sir John Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Gates, Percy Nelson, Sir Frank
Berry, Sir George Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Bethell, A. Goff, Sir Park Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Betterton Henry B. Gower, Sir Robert Nuttall, Ellis
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W R., Skipton) Grace, John Oakley, T.
Blades, Sir George Rowland Greene, W. P. Crawford O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Blundell, F. N. Gretton, Colonel John O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Boothby, R. J. G. Grotrian, H. Brent Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Pennefather, Sir John
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart Gunston, Captain D. W. Penny, Frederick George
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Paring, William George
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Pilditch, Sir Philip
Briscoe, Richard George Hammersley, S. S. Preston, William
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Price, Major C. W. M.
Brittain, Sir Harry Harland, A. Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk Peel
Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Harrison, G. J. C. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Remnant, Sir James
Haslam, Henry C. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Buckingham Sir H. Hawke, John Anthony Rice, Sir Frederick
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Ocf'd, Henley) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Burman, J. B. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Burton Colonel H. W. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Butler, Sir Goffrey Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Rye, F. G.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A. Salmon, Major I.
Caine, Gordon Hall Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Campbell, E. T. Herbert, S. (York, N. R-,Scar. & Wh'by) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Cassels, J. D. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Sanderson, Sir Frank
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Homan, C. W. J. Savert, S. S.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Hopkins, J. W. W. Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby)
Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.) Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Christie, J. A. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Shepperson, E. W.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hudson R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Churchman Sir Arthur C. Hume, Sir G. H. Skelton, A. N.
Clarry Reginald George Hurst, Gerald B. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Hutchison, G.A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Cockerill Brigadier-General G. K. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Smithers, Waldron
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cooper, A. Duff Jacob, A. E. Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Cope, Major William
Courtauld, Major J. S. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.)
Jephcott, A. R. Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Storry Deans, R.
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Kidd, J (Linilthgow) Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Kindersley, Major G. M. Strickland, Sir Gerald
Crook, C. W.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Derltend) King, Captain Henry Douglas Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Crookshank, Col. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Knox, Sir Alfred Sykes Major-Gen. Frederick H.
Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Lamb, J. Q. Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Curzon, Captain Viscount Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R. Templeton, W. P.
Dalkeith, Earl of Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Dalziel, Sir Davison Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Croydon, S.)
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Davies Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Loder, J. de V. Turton, Edmund Russborough
Dawson, Sir Philip Looker, Herbert William Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Dean, Arthur Wellesley Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Waddington, R.
Dixon Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert MacAndrew, Charles Glen Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Doyle, Sir N. Grattan McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Drewe, C. Macintyre, I. Warrender, Sir Victor
Eden, Captain Anthony McLean, Major A. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Edmondson, Major A. J. MacMillan, Captain H. Wells, S. R.
Elliot, Captain Walter E. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple Wise, Sir Fredric Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Wolmer, Viscount
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Womersley, W. J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central) Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) Major Sir Harry Barnston and Captain Margesson.
Winby, Colonel L. P. Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Division No. 199.] AYES. [9.56 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Preston, William
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Price, Major C. W. M.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Ammon, Charles George Hardie, George D. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)
Attlee, Clement Richard Hayday, Arthur Rose, Frank H.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hayes, John Henry Scrymgeour, E.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Barnes, A. Hirst, G. H. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Barr, J. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Batey, Joseph Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Berry Sir George Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Broad, F. A. John, William (Rhondda, West) Stamford, T. W.
Bromley, J. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Sutton, J. E.
Caine, Gordon Hall Kelly, W. T. Taylor, R. A.
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Kennedy, T. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Kenyon, Barnet Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Lamb, J. Q. Varley, Frank B.
Charleton, H. C. Lansbury, George Viant, S. P.
Cluse, W. S. Lowth, T. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Warne, G. H.
Cobb, Sir Cyril Lunn, William Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Connolly, M. Mackinder, W. Westwood, J.
Cove, W. G. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) March, S. Whiteley, W.
Day, Colonel Harry Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Dennison, R. Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Duncan, C. Montague, Frederick Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Dunnico, H. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Windsor, Walter
Eiveden, Viscount Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Fielden, E. B. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W.G.(Ptrsf'ld.) Wise, Sir Fredric
Foster, Sir Harry S. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Wright, W.
Gosling, Harry Palin, John Henry Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Paling, W.
Greenall, T. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Gretton, Colonel John Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Sir Henry Slesser and Mr. Rawlinson.
Groves, T. Ponsonby, Arthur
Grundy, T. W. Potts, John S.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Campbell, E. T. Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Cassels, J. D. Everard, W. Lindsay
Ashmead-Bartlett, E. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Astor, Viscountess Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Atholl, Duchess of Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Finburgh, S.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Birm., W.) Fleming, D. P.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Christie, J. A. Ford, P. J.
Balniel, Lord Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Banks, Reginald Mitchell Clarry, Reginald George Forrest, W.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Foxcroft, Captain C. T.
Barnett, Major Richard Cohen, Major J. Brunel Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Beamish, Captain T. P. H. Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Ganzoni, Sir John
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Gates, Percy
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Cooper, A. Duff Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham
Bennett, A. J. Cope, Major William Gillett, George M.
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Courtauld, Major J. S. Goff, Sir Park
Bethell, A. Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Gower, Sir Robert
Betterton, Henry B. Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Grant, J. A.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Greene, W. P. Crawford
Blades, Sir George Rowland Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Blundell, F. N. Crook, C. W. Grotrian, H. Brent
Boothby, R. J. G. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Crookshank, Col. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Gunston, Captain D. W.
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Curzon, Captain Viscount Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Dalkeith, Earl of Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Dalziel, Sir Davison Hammersley, S. S.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Davidson, J. (Hertl'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Briscoe, Richard George Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Harland, A.
Brittain, Sir Harry Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Harris, Percy A.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Dawson, Sir Philip Harrison, G. J. C.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Dean, Arthur Wellesley Harvey, C. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) Doyle, Sir N. Grattan Haslam, Henry C.
Buckingham, Sir H. Drewe, C. Hawke, John Anthony
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Eden, Captain Anthony Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)
Burman, J. B. Edmondson, Major A. J. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Edwards, John H. (Accrington) Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Burton, Colonel H. W. Elliot, Captain Walter E. Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.
Herbert, S. (York, N.R-,Scar. & Wh'by) Meyer, Sir Frank Smillie, Robert
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Bt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Smithers, Waldron
Homan, C. W. J. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Hopkins, J. W. W. Moore, Sir Newton J. Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.)
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Morden, Colonel Walter Grant Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.) Morris, R. H. Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Murchison, C. K. Storry Deans, R.
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Naylor, T. E. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Hume, Sir G. H. Nelson, Sir Frank Strickland, Sir Gerald
Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Nuttall, Ellis Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Iliffe, Sir Edward M. Oakley, T. Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Templeton, W. P.
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Penny, Frederick George Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Perring, William George Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Jacob, A. E. Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Croydon, S.)
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pilditch, Sir Philip Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)
Jephcott, A. R. Rees, Sir Beddoe Thurtle, E.
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Turton, Edmund Russborough
Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Remnant, Sir James Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Waddington, R.
Kidd, J. (Linilthgow) Rice, Sir Frederick Wallace, Captain D. E.
King, Captain Henry Douglas Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Ropner, Major L. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Knox, Sir Alfred Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Warrender, Sir Victor
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R. Rye, F. G. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Saklatvala, Shapurji Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Salmon, Major I. Wells, S. R.
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Looker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Loder, J. de V. Sanders, Sir Robert A. Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Looker, Herbert William Sanderson, Sir Frank Winby, Colonel L. P.
Lumley, L. R. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Wolmer, Viscount
Mac Andrew, Charles Glen Savery, S. S. Womersley, W. J.
McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Macintyre, I. Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
McLean, Major A. Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
MacMillan, Captain H. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steal- Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Young, E. Hilton (Norwich)
Makins, Brigadier-General E. Shepperson, E. W.
Malone, Major P. B. Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Skelton, A. N. Major Sir Harry Barnston and
Merriman, F. B. Slaney, Major P. Kenyon Captain Margesson.