HC Deb 16 June 1925 vol 185 cc385-9

Section twenty-one of the Finance Act, 1920 (which provides for a deduction from assessable income in respect of children) shall have effect as if for the words "thirty-six pounds" and "twenty-seven pounds" there were substituted respectively, the words "fifty pounds" and "forty pounds."—[Mr. Viant.]

Brought up, and read the First time.


I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The principle embodied in the Clause will commend itself, I hope, to the majority of this Committee. The majority of Members present who have at the present time young families, will appreciate the difficulties which confront parents in training and rearing young families. The net result of the Clause would be that, for the first child, there would be an increased allowance of £14, and for the second £13. The majority of parents, we know, are desirous of giving their children all the opportunities they can to improve their education, and we feel that this Committee would be justified in showing its appreciation of such desire on the part of parents in a practical way, by adopting this Clause. Furthermore, we feel that as concessions have been already made to those who are already well blessed with this world's goods, a concession of this kind would at least do something to allay the irritation that might be caused by the concessions already made. I hope, therefore, this Clause will commend itself to the Committee, and to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.


The hon. Member who has moved this Clause has dealt with it from the point of view of a particular grievance rather than in relation to the whole system of allowances, and it is well to remind the Committee that those allowances were adopted as a result of a very exhaustive inquiry held by a strong Royal Commission. We have in our Income Tax code now practically the whole system they recommended, and my right hon. Friend has gone even further this year in the direction of alleviating the burden on small incomes for such objects as the bringing up of young families, in the additional advantages which he has given by his remissions in the lower scale, and I am afraid we cannot make any further concessions. This particular proposal would cost £900,000 in the current year, and £2,500,000 in a full year.

8.0 P.M.


I am afraid it is hopeless to appeal to the Government to reconsider the decision reached, but I wish to submit one further consideration. We have criticised reductions in the Income Tax standard rate on the ground that they involve giving a large relief to the rich than to the poor, but I submit this Clause would have the effect, not of giving a larger relief to the rich than to the poor, but of giving equal relief to all. That is to say, a man and wife with three children, for example, would get exactly the same relief in terms of money, whatever their income might be, provided they were above the Income Tax limit. On that general ground, that it is undesirable to give greater relief to the rich than to the poor, I would point out that one way of giving relief and not falling into that objectionable method would be found in

accepting an Amendment on these lines. The Financial Secretary tells us that the cost of a full year would be £2,500,000. That is only about a halfpenny in the £ on Income Tax. It would be very much more satisfactory, from the point of view of the balance of benefits between different sections of the community, to give some measure of relief along those lines, even if it meant giving rather less relief under the standard rate.

Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 137; Noes, 257.

Division No. 161.] AYES. [8.3 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hall, F. (York. W. R., Normanton) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Scrymgeour, E.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Scurr, John
Ammon, Charles George Hardie, George D. Sexton, James
Attlee, Clement Richard Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Shiels, Or. Drummond
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hayday, Arthur Short, Alfred (Wednesday)
Baker, Walter Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hirst, G. H. Smillie, Robert
Barnes, A. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Barr, J. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Smith, H. B. Lees Keighley)
Batey, Joseph Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) John, William (Rhondda, West) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Stamford, T. W.
Briant, Frank Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Stephen, Campbell
Broad, F. A. Jones. J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Sutton, J. E.
Bromfield, William Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Taylor, R. A.
Bromley, J. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Buchanan, G. Kelly, W. T. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Cape, Thomas Kennedy, T. Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)
Charleton, H. C. Kenyon, Barnet Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton), E.)
Clowes, S. Kirkwood, D. Thurtle, E.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Lansbury, George Tinker, John Joseph
Compton, Joseph Lawson, John James Varley, Frank B.
Cove, W. G. Livingstone, A. M. Viant, S. P.
Crawfurd, H. E. Lowth, T. Wallhead, Richard C.
Dalton, Hugh Lunn, William Warne, G. H.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Day, Colonel Harry March, S. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Duckworth, John Maxton, James Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Duncan, C. Montague, Frederick Welsh, J. C.
Edwards, John H. (Accrington) Morris, R. H. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
England, Colonel A. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Whiteley, W.
Forrest, W. Murnin, H. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Palin, John Henry Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)
Gibbins, Joseph Paling, W. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Gillett, George M. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Gosling, Harry Ponsonby, Arthur Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Potts, John S. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenall, T. Rees, Sir Beddoe Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Windson, Walter
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Riley, Ben Wright, W.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Ritson, J. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Groves, T. Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Grundy, T. W. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.
Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Saklatvala, Shapurji Hayes.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Atkinson, C. Berry, Sir George
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)
Albery, Irving James Balfour, George (Hampstead) Blades, Sir George Rowland
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Banks, Reginald Mitchell Blundell, F. N.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Barnett, Major Sir Richard Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W.
Atholl, Duchess of Bennett, A. J. Brass, Captain W.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Greene, W. P. Crawford Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Briggs, J. Harold Gretton, Colonel John Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Briscoe, Richard George Grotrian, H. Brent Nuttall, Ellis
Brittain, Sir Harry Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. (Bristol, N.) Oakley, T.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Pennefather, Sir John
Buckingham, Sir H. Harland, A. Penny, Frederick George
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Harrison, G. J. C. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Bullock, Captain M. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Burman, J. B. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Perring, William George
Burton, Colonel H. W. Haslam, Henry C. Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Hawke, John Anthony Pilcher, G.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Pilditch, Sir Philip
Campbell, E. T. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Preston, William
Cassels, J. D. Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Radford, E. A.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Henn, Sir Sydney H. Ramsden, E.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Rawson, Alfred Cooper
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hilton, Cecil Remer, J. R.
Chapman, Sir S. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Remnant, Sir James
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Holland, Sir Arthur Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Chilcott, Sir Warden Holt, Capt. H. P. Rice, Sir Frederick
Christie, J. A. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hertford)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hopkins, J. W. W. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Clarry, Reginald George Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Rye, F. G.
Cobb, Sir Cyril Hume, Sir G. H. Salmon, Major I.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hurd, Percy A. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Sandeman, A. Stewart
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hiffe, Sir Edward M. Sandon, Lord
Cooper, A. Duff Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Cope, Major William Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)
Courtauld, Major J. S. Jacob, A. E. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Shepperson, E. W.
Craig, Ernest (Chester, Crewe) Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Skelton, A. N.
Crook, C. W. Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Kindersley, Major Guy M. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) King, Captain Henry Douglas Smithers, Waldron
Crooksnank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Lamb, J. Q. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert Little, Dr. E. Graham Sprot, Sir Alexander
Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.)
Curzon, Captain Viscount Loder, J. de V. Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Dalkeith, Earl of Looker, Herbert William Stanley. Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Dalziel, Sir Davison Lougher, L. Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Lowe, Sir Francis William Storry, Deans, R.
Davidson, Major-General Sir John H. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Strickland, Sir Gerald
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) Lumley, L. R. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Lynn, Sir Robert J. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Dean, Arthur Wellesley McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H.
Drewe, C. McLean, Major A. Templeton, W. P.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Macquisten, F. A. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Elliott, Captain Walter E. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Ellis, R. G. MacRobert, Alexander M. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Elveden, Viscount Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Waddington, R.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Margesson, Captain D. Wallace, Captain D. E.
Everard, W. Lindsay Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Meller, R. J. Watts, Dr. T.
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Merriman, F. B. Wells, S. R.
Fermoy, Lord Meyer, Sir Frank White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Fielden, E. B. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Finburgh, S. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Fleming, D. P. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd)
Foster, Sir Harry S. Mores, Thomas Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)
Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Moore, Sir Newton J. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Gadle, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. Wise, Sir Fredric
Galbraith, J. F. W. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wolmer, Viscount
Ganzoni, Sir John Morden, Col. W. Grant Womersley, W. J.
Gates, Percy Moreing, Captain A. H. Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.).
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Young, E. Hilton (Norwich)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Murchison, C. K.
Gower, Sir Robert Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Grace, John Neville, R. J. Major Sir Harry Barnston and
Grant, J. A. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Captain Douglas Hacking.