HC Deb 10 July 1925 vol 186 cc791-7

Order for Second Reading read.

The SECRETARY for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour)

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

In making this Motion I do not think it should be necessary for me to detain the House at any length, in. view of the fact that the Measure dealing with teachers' superannuation in England passed its Third Reading last night, and received such a very favourable reception in all parts of the House. I will therefore confine myself to a brief explanation of the main features of the Scottish Bill. Clause 1 of this Bill provides for the continuance of the existing arrangement for the payment of contributions by teachers, and it also provides that what has up to now been of a temporary character should be continued to the end of the financial year, and we make this provision in order that we should start on an equal footing at the same time as England does under the new scheme.

I think everyone will agree that we should move in step with England in this matter. We also want to extend the period during which the contributions are to be used for Appropriations-in-Aid. It follows that we must extend the period under which the Education (Scotland) Fund receives compensation from the Exchequer for any excess of the amount contributed by Scottish teachers over eleven-eightieths of the amount contributed by teachers in England and Wales. Hon. Members will notice the words in italics in the Bill, and they will see that the sum is not a very large one, but looking at it from a Scottish point of view, although not very large, it is still not negligible, and I believe everyone will agree as to the equity of the compensation, and if the House is good enough to give the Second Reading of this Bill I shall ask them forthwith to pass the necessary Financial Resolution.

Clause 2 deals mainly with contribution. On that general question, I do not think I need to say anything except that one welcomes the fact that England has at last recognised the sound principle which we have long considered proper in Scotland. I think I ought to draw the attention of the House to the White Paper dealing with the finance of the Bill. Hon. Members will see that the general relations with the Exchequer and the Education (Scotland) Fund remain as before. The Fund will continue to receive 11/80ths of whatever sum may be voted to meet the cost of the superannuation of teachers in England and Wales, and will continue to be responsible for the payment of benefits to the Scottish teachers. What is new is that in future the contributions of the teachers, as well as those of the authorities, will pass, not into the Exchequer, but into the Fund, which will, in turn, transfer to the Exchequer in each year 11/80ths of the contributions received by the Exchequer in that year from teachers south of the Border. This arrangement represents, I believe, a considerable simplification in more than one respect.

In the first place, there will be no overpayment of Scottish contributions to the Exchequer, and, therefore, no need for the repayment of any excess. In the second place, in Scotland we need not postpone until 1928 the bringing into force of the provisions as to the employer's contribution. We can do that at once, without, as I understand, putting either the education authorities or the other managers of grant aided schools to any inconvenience or disadvantage. Until the year 1928, no payment at all will be made out of the Fund in respect of the employers' contributions. All the money it receives from the employers will, therefore, be available for distribution in the shape of grants. Finally, when the employers in England and Wales begin to contribute, and receive grants towards their contributions. 11/80ths of that grant will accrue to the Education (Scotland) Grant, and will reach the Scottish education authorities through the usual channel.

Clause 3 provides for the framing of an amending scheme, which will be prepared by the Scottish Education Department for the approval of Parliament. Our intention is that the system of superannuation embodied in the new scheme shall correspond as accurately as possible with the similar scheme south of the Border. There are, of course, bound to be certain differences. We do not, for instance, propose to make any change in our policy as to the admission of uncertificated teachers, but in all essentials I hope there will be such a measure of agreement as will ensure a perfectly free flow of certificated teachers between the two countries. The scheme in draft form will, I hope, be prepared in a day or two, and should be in the hands of hon. Members before we go into Committee upstairs, and they will then see exactly what it contains.

Clause 4 of the Bill directs and empowers the Department to embody in the new scheme certain features, of which, if hon. Members have studied the English Bill, they will probably have made themselves aware. The most important of these, perhaps, is that which relates to the repayment of contributions. If there is no specific mention of other teachers, such as those reckoning university service, that is due to the fact that those powers are already contained in the Act of 1919, and hon. Members will see, when the scheme is placed in their hands, that we propose to exercise those powers. Then, for teachers who have retired, or who may have discontinued their service, and do not elect to resume it, the scheme of 1910, which was subsequently amended between 1922 and 1925, will still be the governing instrument. The new scheme will only apply to those teachers who are, or may be, in the service after the 1st April, 1926. If however, any such teacher feels that he will be at any disadvantage by the change, it will be open to him, under the provisions of Clause 5 of this Bill, to give notice, within three months of the change, that he desires to remain under the old scheme. I think the House will agree that it is reasonable that that alternative should be offered to the teacher, but that it is also equally reasonable that he should make his decision within a reasonable period.

I think the remaining Clauses of the Bill call for very little comment. The first Sub-section of Clause 6 I have already touched upon. The second Sub-section of that Clause is also covered by the Financial Resolution. It is designed to remove all doubt as to the right of the Scottish Education Department to receive from the Exchequer the 11/80ths of the contributions that may be returned by the teachers of England and Wales. That the Department ought to get the benefit of this contribution is, I think, beyond doubt. Clause 7, with its accompanying Schedule, provides for the setting up of an account on the lines of that which is to be established under the English Bill; and Clause 8 confirms the responsibility of the Scottish Education Department for the payment of all benefits. Clauses 9 and 10 are simply formal in their character. In moving the Second Reading of this Bill, I do so in the hope that it will commend itself particularly to those who represent Scotland, and that it is an effort to carry out a reform which, I think, has been long overdue, and which we all of us trust may bring into the teaching profession a feeling of security and contentment, which everyone may trust will be reflected in an added progress in education in Scotland. I hope the House will agree to the Second Reading of this Bill to-day, in order that we may go into Committee, where we can discuss in the fullest detail any minor points.

Mr. W. GRAHAM

My right hon. Friend has indicated that there is unlikely to be any controversy on this Bill, except on certain points in Committee, and I think it is unnecessary to do more on this side of the House, from this bench at all events, than say that we approve, of course, of the inevitable development following the English Measure. Indeed, if I had any kind of criticism at all to make on a Bill of this kind, it would be merely to the effect that, on the Estimates and in Measures of this description and so on, we are, for a variety of reasons, practically compelled to follow England at the present time, largely because of the 11/80ths of the expenditure and other arrangements. Notwithstanding that handicap, our education, as I think is commonly recognised, has been able to triumph in all parts of the world, and, not least, south of the Tweed. The only other point of criticism turns on the fact that this Measure, like the English Measure, does not carry out one of the recommendations of the Emmott Committee, namely, the establishment of a fund; but, as I have just made a speech on that very subject in another connection, it would be unfair to the House to repeat it now. I think all of us, or many of us, at all events, on this side and in other quarters of the House, agree with the view that the proper method of going about superannuation is to establish a fund, and not merely a Treasury account. The present argument is that, under the account system, the contribution of the State is less than it would be immediately, but I do not suppose it is disputed in the long run that the State must pay more, and I would very much rather that it shouldered its responsibilities properly. Apart from that, I do not propose to say anything at all. We will reserve our criticism, such as it is, to the Committee stage, and I think, with very little debate so far as we are concerned, the right hon. Gentleman may depend on getting his Bill.

Mr. D. M. COWAN

I have nothing much to offer in the way of criticism of the Bill or of the speech of the Secretary for Scotland. The Bill is indeed of rather an unusual character in so far as it merely enables a Government Department to do a particular piece of work. It does not determine what those provisions are to be specifically. It gives the Education Department power to make a scheme to provide for the superannuation of Scottish teachers. However, the provisions which will be incorporated in that scheme have been already pretty largely determined by the Measure which got its Third Reading last night, and we are promised that, so far as possible, the two Measures will be brought into such accord as will enable the teachers to pass from one country to the other without disadvantage to themselves, and very possibly with great advantage to the country to which they go, as well as the one from which they come. I offer very sincere congratulations to the President of the Board of Education for the manner in which he has dealt with the question of superannuation. On the general qualifications for pension he has recognised the unity of the teaching service, so that from now on it will be possible for a man or a woman to pass from one branch of the service, the school, the university, the technical college, without any loss to himself. That is a very valuable feature in the English scheme, and of course we have the assurance that it will be incorporated in the Scottish scheme as well. The speech of the Secretary for Scotland renders criticism of the Bill almost impossible, if not unnecessary, for the reason that to-day we are only giving this departmental power, and the Bill in itself is really nothing. The scheme is the important thing, and so really, until we get the scheme, we cannot say whether the Scottish Education Department is doing all it should do, and doing it in the right way. At any rate, we shall have the opportunity of discussing this fully in Committee upstairs. I join with the right hon. Gentleman in the hope that this Bill, together with the English Bill, will be the precursor and the producer of a period of peace in the teaching profession which will be reflected in the work of the schools as the years go on.

Mr. STEPHEN

I should like to say a word along the lines that have been already followed. As a member of the teaching profession, I am glad to think I his matter is likely now to find something that seems to promise a permanent solution of this matter. I notice the Bill is pretty much an enabling Measure for the Department, and I am sure we from Scotland prefer to deal with this matter in Committee among ourselves. We welcome the reciprocity in connection with the superannuation schemes and the flow that that makes possible from one country into the other. It has been suggested to me by some English Members that that flow is always from the North to the South, and never from the South to the North, but from my own experience in connection with Scottish schools I can say that is not so. Even although we have not reciprocity in connect on with our schemes, some English teachers have thought it advisable in the past to come to Scotland because of the atmosphere in the schools, and I hope there will be contentment in the profession. I notice in the memorandum paragraph that vested interests are fully conserved, and I hope those of my fellow teachers whose vested interests are being fully conserved will in the future make a real contribution in trying to get as good conditions and as good a pension scheme for other workers as they are getting for themselves.

Captain BENN

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question which has been put to me by teachers in my constituency. Why does not the reciprocal provision prevail in the case of retired teachers? I am told that whereas service in either country is to count for this purpose, in future, in the case of teachers who have already retired, such service will not count. I cannot imagine that a large sum of money will be involved. I do not suppose the right hon. Gentleman will deny that we owe much to those who have spent their life in teaching and are now retired. May I ask him to consider whether it is not possible in Committee so to amend the Bill that the advantages of reciprocity which are given to teachers presently teaching can be extended to those who have retired from the service.

Colonel CROOKSHANK

I have had a letter on this subject which reached me this morning. I should like to ask the Government to take it into consideration.

Sir J. GILMOUR

As I understand it, the provisions with regard to retired teachers are to be covered under the scheme of the 1819 Act, and while I am very willing to consider any proposition which hon. Members may put on this question, that is the scheme as it at present exists, but I shall be quite prepared to listen to any hon. Member who may put down an Amendment.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.