HC Deb 02 July 1925 vol 185 cc2835-908

Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill further considered in Committee.

[Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]


I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

During Question Time, a matter was raised which in our judgment is of the very greatest importance to the Members of the Committee in the consideration of the Bill now before us. The point that was put to the Leader of the House and to the Minister of Health was that the position which will arise under the Unemployment Insurance Bill, which was printed and made available yesterday, will have a very great effect upon the matters which we are discussing in relation to this contributory pensions scheme. We want to submit that it is imperative, in the interests of efficiency and in the interests of the country, before we proceed with any further discussion of the controversial matters in this Bill, and especially in regard to its effect on industry, that we should have much fuller particulars of the finance of the other Bill, which, in spite of what the Minister said at Question Time, has a direct bearing upon this Bill. The Minister, in reply to a question just now, said—I do not want to misquote him; I am speaking from memory, and, if I am wrong, he will correct me—that what he said yesterday in Debate would really not change the position at all and that the finance of the Unemployment Insurance Bill was quite separate. I want to refresh his memory from the OFFICIAL REPORT as to what he actually did say yesterday. He said: All that we are concerned about here, I submit, is what reduction in the contributions by employer and employed is provided in the new Bill "— That is the Unemployment Insurance Billand how far will that relieve the burden, or the alleged burden, which is going to be put upon industry by our proposals under this Bill. That is the contributory Pensions Bill. The net result of the new proposal is that all the immense benefits which are provided under this Bill will accrue for a weekly payment, in respect of a man, of 2d. by the employer and 3d. by the man himself, and, in the case of a woman, of 1d. in each case. Therefore "— said the Minister to the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. T. Thomson)— I do not think the hon. Member can say that is a crushing burden."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st July, 1925; col. 2572, Vol. 185.] I think that indicates, at least from our point of view, that the Minister is concerned at every stage in this Bill with the relief to be given to industry under the other Bill put down for Second Reading next Tuesday in its effect upon our consideration of the present proposal. Let me also put this to the Minister. We have had a print of the Bill to deal with the unemployment insurance question, and, although we have not yet had an opportunity of examining it from an actuarial point of view, we have had time enough to see that there may be very grave doubt as to whether, when the Financial Resolution is disposed of, and when the Bill itself is disposed of, the actual financial provisions will be exactly the same as they are now. We cannot at all guarantee that the relief to industry, which it is said will Be given under the Unemployment Insurance Bill, will, in fact, be the same as in the printed provisions of the Bill at the moment. So far as we can tell from a, cursory examination of the Bill, there is to be a reduction in the weekly unemployment insurance contribution in respect of men of 3d., but the increase in the Government's contribution for men is only l¼d. In the case of women, there is to be a total deduction of 2d., but the increase in the Government's contribution is only to be ¾d. In the case of juveniles, the reduction is 1½d., but the increase in the Government's contribution is only ¾d. Until we have had full particulars of the actuarial basis upon which the Government have drawn up the new Bill, which it is said is going to save industry in relation to the burdens of this Bill, we cannot tell at all whether the House of Commons will be prepared to pass the financial provisions of that other Bill.

Under the proposal of the Unemployment Insurance Bill—and we may have to correct this when we get the actuary's statement, and that is why we want to report Progress—so far as one can tell from the scanty information given to the Committee, there will be a reduction in contributions of insured persons of, say, between £800,000 and £900,000, and the increased contributions from the Government will not be more than, roughly, £310,000. Unless, therefore, there be some further explanation, it would appear that the House will be asked, in relation to the finance of the Unemployment Insurance Bill, even upon the basis of the figures given by the Minister of Labour of the unemployed on 10th June, to pass a scheme which will increase in the first year the deficiency on the Unemployment Insurance Fund by nearly £500,000. It seems to me that when the House of Commons comes down to a detailed examination of the financial proposals of the Unemployment Insurance Bill it is quite likely that it will not be prepared to pass them in their present form, and that all the suggestions of the Minister of Health with regard to the relief to industry in relation to the burden of the contributory pensions scheme, which will arise from the new unemployment insurance proposals, may fall to the ground because of a subsequent decision of the House of Commons. It might be that that condition of doubt would be obviated if this Committee were furnished in advance with the full actuarial report upon which the Government have drawn up the financial proposals of the Unemployment Insurance Bill, and, on those grounds, I think we are not only protecting the privileges of the House of Commons, but we are also trying to safeguard the interests of industry in the country as a whole in moving to report Progress in order that we may get complete and detailed financial information.


The Government do not deny that there is a close relation between these two Bills, the Unemployment Insurance Bill and this Pensions Bill. Both impose a charge upon the worker and the employer, and we cannot decide what our views on this Bill should be without being certain what the charges under the other Bill are to be. That is obvious, I do not know what Parliamentary opportunity we shall have to discuss, as we ought to discuss, both proposals at once. I do not know what general proposal could be made, but I have one suggestion which I would like to make. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not secure the attendance of the Minister of Labour when Clause 9, which governs the contributions, is under discussion, so that we may put questions to him and be informed what his attitude and intentions are on what after all is a matter common to both proposals—namely, the adequacy of the contributions which are going to be imposed. If the right hon. Gentleman would concede that point, I think it might be a. reasonable advance towards meeting what we all regard as a difficult situation.

The MINISTER of HEALTH (Mr. Neville Chamberlain)

There is really no substantial basis for the difficulty which has been suggested by the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) and by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain Benn). The finance of each Bill is absolutely distinct. The one is entirely independent of the other. So far as the financial provisions of this particular Bill are concerned, they are governed by the Financial Resolution. The only connection between the two is that, in considering the argument as to the burdens on industry, it may be clearly stated on behalf of the Government that the proposals in the Unemployment Insurance Bill will have the effect upon the contributions which are taken from the employers and the employed of reducing the total burden of all the insurance charges upon industry. But to say that we should not discuss this Bill until we have further information as to what the Exchequer contributions under the Unemployment Insurance Bill are to be and what the House of Commons may be pleased to do about the Financial Resolution of that Bill appears to me to be unreasonable. As regards the attendance of the Minister of Labour, I shall be very pleased to convey to my right hon. Friend the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member. I cannot give any undertaking that he will be here, but, if he finds it possible to do so, I am sure that he will be pleased to attend to answer any questions which the hon. and gallant Gentleman may wish to put to him and which may be germane to the discussion.


I think the Government, and particularly the right hon. Gentleman, are largely to blame for the confusion in which the Committee finds itself with regard to this Measure. May I remind him again what he said yesterday. He said: The net result of the new proposal is that all the insurance benefits which are provided under this Bill will accrue for a weekly payment, in respect of a man, of 2d. by the employer and 2d. by the man himself, and, in respect of a woman, of 1d. in each caw."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st July. 1925; col. 2572, Vol. 185.] If these words mean anything, they mean that a reduction is being made practically in the contributions by industry, both employers and employés, for the benefits that are to accrue to the pensioners under the Bill which we are now about to discuss. If they do not mean that, what do they mean? That is the ordinary English meaning, as I interpret them, of the words that I have just quoted.


The right hon. Gentleman is no authority on the ordinary English meaning.


I am not an authority if these words do not mean what they convey to the minds, I am sure, of 99 per cent. of the Members of the Committee, and what they would convey to the right hon. Gentleman if he could look impartially at the meaning of his own words. I am going to submit, further, that a representative of the Treasury should be present. Eight from the outset the Government have associated these two things. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in introducing his Budget, went out of his way to advertise the benefits that were to come from this Measure as part of the concessions made to the working classes by the Government. This is mainly a question of finance. We are entitled to have a representative of the Treasury present. I can see that the Government are merely juggling with statistics. When it suits them they say, "We are going to break down the burden on industry with regard to unemployment insurance." They are challenged on that, as they can rightly be by those who say, "How can you hope to break down the burden on industry for unemployment insurance at a time when unemployment is so rapidly increasing?" When unem- ployment figures are going up at the rate of 20,000 a week the burden on the Unemployment Insurance Fund is going up at a corresponding rate.

We are entitled to know how the Government are to perform the miracle of feeding an increasing army of 20,000 a week on less money. The miracle of the loaves and fishes is going to be left in the background as an old-fashioned performance by the wonderful financial magician who is now representing the Government on the Treasury Bench. The danger with which we are faced is this— that in order to justify the claims for this Bill by the Minister of Health, we are asked to bring the Unemployment Insurance Fund into a condition of insolvency, and the Government having secured the passage of this Bill through the House, we shall probably be asked to vote a further sum to make good the raid which we have made on the Unemployment Insurance Fund in order to justify the position of the Government. In these circumstances it is only reasonable that we should move to report progress.


It seems to me and to many other hon. Members on this side that this is a piece of sheer obstruction.


On a point of Order Is it not within your power, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, to decide what is obstruction? If this Motion is allowed by you, is not that sufficient answer to the hon. Member's suggestion?


Seldom do hon. Members opposite take part in the Debate. Is it in order for them to say that someone is guilty of obstruction?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain FitzRoy)

I know for myself what is obstruction, but I cannot decide for other hon. Members.


The hon. Member has used the word "obstruction." Has it not been ruled that the word "obstruction" is an unparliamentary expression?

Captain BENN

For the information of Members, will you be so good as to give a ruling as to whether a charge of obstruction is not an unparliamentary observation?


A ruling has been given in the past that the word "obstruction" could not be used.


The Deputy-Chairman, having ruled that the expression is unparliamentary, I withdraw it at once, but that does not prevent me from saying that this is a wanton waste of the time of the House. The Motion is intended to draw attention to the relationship between the Bill to be introduced on Friday, and the Bill now under discussion. Surely, as the Minister has made clear again and again, the argument brought forward establishing the relationship between the Bills was only to prove that the concession in the one case would be helpful in discharging obligations in the other. No one is more anxious than I am to see the burden on British industry removed, and no one could have been more concerned than I was at the original provisions outlined in the Budget speech of a new impost to be placed on industry. The Government have realised the seriousness of the situation, and are making a very important concession to industry. To take up the time of the House by trying to establish a legitimate connection between the two propositions is a simple waste of time, and I am astonished that the right hon. Gentleman opposite, whose subtle conception of exactitude in argument has always been so striking, should raise a point of that kind. The Unemployment Insurance Bill will stand on its merits when it comes before the House. The present Bill stands on its merits.


What are you standing on?


On two Irish feet, the same as the hon. Member. The most astonishing thing of all is the interruption of the hon. and gallant Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair). He chides us with not taking more part in the Debates. If we have not done so, it is not from want of knowledge or experience. Hon. Members on the other side have not been able to provide the material for debate. These tactics for wasting time ought not to be adopted here when the country is fighting for its life. Every day that passes over our heads the difficulties of the manufacturer and of the employer become more and more acute. It really is play-acting with the time of Parliament to delay a Measure of this kind. The real secret of all this opposition is that hon. Members opposite had not an opportunity of producing a similar Bill, and had not the competence to produce such a scheme. I appeal to the Committee to bring this Debate to a close and to proceed with the Bill.


It is my pleasant duty to congratulate the first Conservative Member to take part in this discussion. I hope it is a good omen, and that many of the same party will follow his excellent example. If it is my duty to congratulate the hon. Member on his speech, I wonder what the Federation of British Industries will have to say of the eloquence of its representative.


On a point of Order. I submit that that is a most improper observation for the hon and gallant Member to make. I am no more a representative of the Federation of British Industries than are scores of other hon. Members on this side of the House.


Is the hon. Member entitled to accuse other hon. Members on his own side of being representatives of the Federation of British Industries?


That is not a point of Order.


I accept the hon. Member's explanation that he is no more a representative of the Federation of British Industries than scores of his colleagues. I was merely alluding to him as the most distinguished among them. This is a perfectly serious Motion. The whole of industry in this country is awaiting with interest information as to what burden is to be cast upon it. That is not in dispute. In arguing the first Clause of this Bill yesterday, the Minister of Health said in effect, "You are going to get all these additional benefits for twopence, because, although we are imposing a contribution of fourpence upon employers and employed, we are at the same time taking steps in another Bill to reduce the dead weight of that burden." Therefore, the two Measures are inseparably interrelated. Why this policy of secretiveness? What is the reason for this concealment? The Minister knew, when we were discussing the first Amend. ment on the first Clause, exactly what proposals were to be made by the Government in the Unemployment Insurance Bill. He would not vouchsafe them to the House. Someone vouchsafed them to the "Daily Mail." We have to learn from the "Daily Mail" what the Minister of Health refuses to impart to us. That is an insult to the traditions of this House.

What I want to know about the actuary's report, which is to throw further light in the matter, is this: Is that report in the possession of the "Daily Mail"? Has the right hon. Gentleman given that information to the "Daily Mail"? There can be no possible reason for not treating the Committee with complete frankness. The Government knows exactly what its proposals are, what the total imposition upon industry will be, and exactly how those figures are arrived at. Why is it that the Minister cannot rise in his place and give us the information which is vitally necessary in order to enable us to argue the Bill? The right hon. Gentleman yesterday said, "I have reduced the total burden on industry by two-pence." He has, of course, done nothing of the kind. What we expected was that the payments which have to be made during the period of deficiency would be abandoned by the Government, and that would have given the benefits of the Bill which is now under discussion to the contributors without calling upon them to make any contribution whatsoever. We could have had the whole of the benefits under this Bill without paying one extra farthing. Indeed, we could have had many more benefits, because the difference between the normal contribution taken under the Unemployment Insurance Act and the contributions during the deficiency period is 1s. 1d., and the total concession given by the Minister of Health is 6d. Therefore we should have had 7d. to play with and industry would have been relieved, but instead of relieving industry the right hon. Gentleman has placed a further burden on the rates, has increased the waiting period and he is not giving any concession of value to industry. He is not even giving us the facts and figures upon which he has based this concession. Is he keeping us in suspense while hi is negotiating with the Federation of British Industries. If he is doing that, and if the communiques of the latest negotiations are to appear in the Press every day, he is not treating the House of Commons with fairness. This is the place in which to impart information. We are entitled as representatives of the people to know what this burden is to be. Industry is in a critical condition. It has a right to the information and I appeal to the Minister to give us what should have been given to us before now and to abandon this policy of secrecy and concealment to deal more frankly with the Committee and to relieve industry, not only of this burden but of the anxiety which he has perpetuated by refusing industry the information to which it is entitled.


It is about time that this farce was ended. Last night we had to sit here for nearly an hour and a-half listening to this kind of obstruction —[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]—to this sheer waste of time.


On a point of Order. Did not you, Sir, rule a few minutes ago that the word "obstruction" should not be used?


I think the hon. Member substituted another term.


On a point of Order. Is it not the case that to substitute the term "sheer waste of time" is a reflection upon your ruling?


There are quite enough un-Parliamentary terms already, without adding to them.


Did not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, who was Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in the late Cabinet, himself use the word "obstruction"?


The fact remains that last night we wasted an hour and a-half of valuable time on a Motion of this kind. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Well, that is my opinion, and it is the opinion of many other hon. Members. I wish to say also that there was not a single Member on the Liberal Benches in the early hours of this morning, whilst we have been giving close attention all this week to these discussions and trying to carry into effect a very valuable social reform. Are we now to be called upon to spend another hour this afternoon in wasting time? [HON. MEMBERS: "You are helping to do it!"]

Viscountess ASTOR

Then you admit it?


We have been sitting here attempting to help on a constructive Measure by discreet silence. Many of the representatives on these benches feel that we ought to enter an emphatic protest against the policy which is being adopted by hon. Members opposite.


I fear that the hon. Gentlemen who have spoken from the opposite benches have only made this Debate more difficult. Nobody on this side of the House has any desire but to help the Bill.

Viscountess ASTOR

Since this Bill is looked upon by you as an insult to the working people, how can you honestly help it along?


No Member of the House can deny that, so far as we have gone, the Bill is much better than it was, and it merely adds to the difficulties if hon. Members opposite are to have the word "obstruction" coming so trippingly off their tongues, or if they substitute for it another term which they mean to be equally offensive. This Bill is going to affect a very large number of people, and the suggestion that we want to hinder its passage is absurd, but there are many points to which careful attention must be given.


Are we to be asked to listen to that from the Front Opposition Bench when a few minutes ago we were told by an ex-Minister, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood), "Very well, then; now we will get on with the obstruction"? It is on record.


The accusation has constantly been hurled across the Floor by Conservative Members that we are engaged on a deliberate policy of holding up the Bill, but the result of the persistent efforts that we have made so far has been to improve the Bill. We have now arrived at a stage where there is a muddle as between unemployment insurance and pensions, but it is not a muddle of our making. In the early hours of yesterday morning we had a similar muddle with regard to the administration of health insurance and unemployment insurance and this question has arisen because the Government itself has chosen to drag in by the ears the question of unemployment insurance. To-day we are in the position of not knowing exactly where we are. During the Second Reading Debate every time a figure was quoted on these benches some hon. Member opposite asked whether it was vouched for actuarially. To-day we are faced with new proposals which have a bearing upon this Bill yet we are left without any actuarial report. Nobody knows exactly what are the foundations of the Government calculations and we are not satisfied that industry is going to gain any benefit by this juggling as between one Bill and another and between one set of contributions and another. It does not facilitate business to treat Members of this Committee in the cavalier way in which they have been treated. We have asked for information, we have put forward points of criticism, but we have got no reply. That does not tend to facilitate the passage of the Bill, and I submit we have reached a point now where we ought to be put in possession of information which will enable us to form a judgment on one of the most important features of the Bill. If ever a Motion to report Progress was justified I submit the Motion now before the Committee is justified.


I cannot enter into those mathematical details of which expert jugglers in figures, like some of my hon. Friends, are capable. The only figures I have seen during the past few days are the figures sitting opposite. Since the fire at Madame Tussauds most of the occupants seem to have escaped here.


Is it in Order for the hon. Gentleman to compare Members of this distinguished House to the residents of Madame Tussauds?


I did not make any such reference at all. I only wish they were so distinguished. Those of us who are happy in our ignorance, always want to know something, and during these Debates, so far as I have been able to attend to them—[HON. MEMBERS: "Asleep!"] It is a good job I am able to go asleep, because if I remained awake, some of you would not have a chance of going asleep, and, after all, there is a limit to human endurance. I want you to remember that we are not here for fun. When it comes to the final analysis the people who will have to foot the bill are not the people who are talking sympathetically, but the people who produce the wealth of the country—the workers. When the final bill has to be footed, it is Phil Garlick who will have to foot it. We want to know where we are. You can tell us but you will not. [Interruption.] We can give you the facts but we cannot give you the brains to understand them. For two days we have asked for information and yet, in connection with a Bill of this character, involving great financial commitments, not one representative of the expert authority which ought to be able to give us the information we require has attended, and that has been the case practically all through the Debate. I suppose they are looking for figures somewhere else, and when we ask a question we are told that we are obstructing. When we move to report Progress we are obstructing.

I do not care whether you call it obstruction or not. Hon. Members opposite know that they belong to a party that knows how to obstruct better than ever we do, when it suits their purpose. Whenever any Government has tried to introduce legislation with which they did not agree, they have exhausted the possibilities of Parliamentary procedure in order to have their point of view put forward, and they have even broken Governments up. They went further, and they did not depend on this House to help them in their opposition, but they went to another place, and they got their master's voice to operate. They have threatened the King when they could not get their own way. We do not know how to oppose. We are babies in the matter of opposition, compared with hon. Members opposite. Whenever their interests have been attacked, they have not scrupled to exhaust the possibilities even of revolution. They have cut a king's head off in this country at one time.


I must ask the hon. Member to put forward some reasons for reporting Progress.


The reason is because of the lack of information provided by the Government on a most important legislative proposition. One Bill is in progress, and the other is in the cradle, waiting to be adopted, but Dr. Barnardo has not arrived and Dr. Bodie is on the opposite benches. So far as we are concerned, we claim that we have no right to be asked to buy a pig in a poke, and that we have a right to know where we are going to be committed and what the financial commitments of this Bill are. [Interruption.] I have been committed before to-day, but I did not go there for selling drink to the Indians. I have one of the poorest constituencies in Great Britain, in which nearly half the adult workers are casual labourers. How are they going on under this financial proposition of the Government? By your new Bill that you are going to introduce next week, there will not be a guarantee of two days a week for those men. A large number of them are not even sure that they will get one day in a month, and where will they be under these financial propositions?

You may talk about your financial arrangements, but when you put a tax on the worker, you will have to find out his ability to pay. I am here to say that there are certain people in this country who are not in a position to pay these taxes on their weekly earnings, because, in the first place, they cannot get the employment to be able to pay them, and how are they going on, year in and year out, working as casual labourers, when they do not average three days a week even in normal times? How are they going on now in these times of depression? Come to the Victoria and Albert Docks, and I will show you ships lying idle, and barges empty, and men walking the streets, for month after month, unable to get a day's work. How will they stand under your Bills and financial propositions? You are trying to make the workers believe that you are going to do them good, but all that you are going to do is to do them for their goods, if they have got any.




rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee proceeded to a Division.


(seated and covered): On a point of Order. I was on my feet, and I had been called by you, Captain FitzRoy, but as a Member on the other side, who had not previously spoken, also rose, I was quite willing to give way to him. I want to

ask you whether it is in order, if a Member has shown that courtesy, for a Minister to move the Closure when that Member has at last been called by you.


It is in order for the Minister or any other Member of the House to move at any time, "That the Question he now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 230; Noes, 132.

Division No. 252.] AYES. [4.50 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll) Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Albery, Irving James Dawson, Sir Philip Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Dixey, A. C. Looker, Herbert William
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Doyle, Sir N. Grattan Lowe, Sir Francis William
Ashmead-Bartlett, E. Drewe, C. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Edmondson, Major A. J. Lumley, L. R.
Astor, Viscountess Edwards, John H. (Accrington) Lynn, Sir R. J.
Atholl, Duchess of Elliot, Captain Walter E. MacAndrew, Charles Glen
Balniel, Lord Elveden, Viscount Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Beamish, Captain T. P. H. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Fermoy, Lord Margesson, Captain D.
Bennett, A. J. Fielden, E. B. Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Fleming, D. P. Meller, R. J.
Berry, Sir George Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Meyer, Sir Frank
Bethell, A. Frece, Sir Walter de Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Betterton, Henry B. Fremantle, Lt.-Col. Francis E. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Birchall. Major J. Dearman Gates, Percy Moles, Thomas
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Blades, Sir George Rowland Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Moreing, Captain A. H.
Blundell, F. N. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart Goff, Sir Park Neville, R. J.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Gower, Sir Robert Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Brass, Captain W. Grace, John Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Brassey, Sir Leonard Greene, W. P. Crawford Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Briggs, J. Harold Grotrian, H. Brent Nuttall, Ellis
Briscoe, Richard George Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Oakley, T.
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hammersley, S. S. Orsmby-Gore, Hon. William
Brown. Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Pennefather, Sir John
Bullock, Captain M. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Penny, Frederick George
Burman, J. B. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Burton, Colonel H. W. Haslam, Henry C. Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Campbell, E. T. Henderson, Capt R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Pilcher, G.
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Power, Sir John Cecil
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Preston, William
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Price, Major C. W. M.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Raine, W.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A. Ramsden, E.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Rawson, Alfred Cooper
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Rees, Sir Beddoe
Christie, J. A. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Holt, Capt. H. P. Remnant, Sir James
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Homan, C. W. J. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Clarry, Reginald George Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Sandeman, A. Stewart
Cooper, A. Duff Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Sandon, Lord
Cope, Major William Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Couper, J. B. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Savery, S. S.
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Jephcott, A. R. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Shepperson, E. W.
Crook, C. W. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Skelton, A. N.
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Kindersley. Major Guy M. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Curzon, Captain Viscount Lamb, J.Q. Smithers, Waldron
Dalkeith, Earl of Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R. Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Steel, Major Samuel Strang Wallace, Captain D. E. Womersley, W. J.
Strickland, Sir Gerald Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Stuart, Crichton., Lord C. Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Warrender, Sir Victor Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Styles, Captain H. Walter Waterhouse, Captain Charles Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Watts, Dr. T. Wood, Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)
Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Wells, S. R. Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Templeton, W. P. Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple Wragg, Herbert
Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Captain Hacking and Lord Stanley.
Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Wise, Sir Fredric
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Harris, Percy A. Ritson, J.
Adamson. W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hayday, Arthur Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Ammon, Charles George Hayes, John Henry Rose, Frank H.
Attlee, Clement Richard Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Baker, Walter Hirst, G. H. Scrymgeour, E.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Sexton, James
Barnes, A. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Barr, J. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Batey, Joseph Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Sitch, Charles H.
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Slesser, Sir Henry H.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) John, William (Rhondda, West) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Snell, Harry
Buchanan, G. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Clowes, S. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Cluse, W. S. Kelly, W. T. Stamford, T. W.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Kennedy, T. Stephen, Campbell
Connolly, M. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Sutton, J. E.
Cove, W. G. Kenyon, Barnet Taylor, R. A.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kirk wood, D. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Dalton, Hugh Lawson, John James Thurtle, E.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lee, F. Tinker, John Joseph
Day, Colonel Harry Livingstone, A. M. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Dennison, R. Lowth, T. Viant, S. P.
Duncan, C. Lunn, William Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Dunnico, H. Mackinder, W. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Gibbins, Joseph March, S. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Gillett, George M. Maxton, James Welsh, J. C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Westwood, J.
Greenall, T. Montague, Frederick Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Morris, R. H. Whiteley, W.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wiggins, William Martin
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool Naylor, T. E. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Groves, T. Oliver, George Harold Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Grundy, T. W. Palin, John Henry Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Paling, W. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Windsor, Walter
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Ponsonby, Arthur Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Potts, John S.
Hardie, George D. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Harney, E. A. Riley, Ben Mr. Warne and Mr. Ben Smith.

Question put accordingly, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 130; Noes, 234.

Division No. 253.] AYES. [4.58 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Buchanan, G. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Clowes, S. Greenall, T.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Cluse, W. S. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Ammon, Charles George Connolly, M. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Attlee, Clement Richard Cove, W. G. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Groves, T.
Baker, Walter Dalton, Hugh Grundy, T. W.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)
Barnes, A. Day, Colonel Harry Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.)
Barr J. Dennison, R. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Batey, Joseph Duncan, C. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Dunnico, H. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Benn Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Hardle, George D.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Gibbins, Joseph Harney, E. A.
Broad, F. A. Gillett, George M. Harris, Percy A.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Montague, Frederick Snell, Harry
Hayday, Arthur Morris, R. H. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Hayes, John Henry Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Naylor, T. E. Stamford, T. W.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Oliver, George Harold Stephen, Campbell
Hirst, G. H. Palin, John Henry Sutton, J. E.
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Paling, W. Taylor, R. A.
Hore-Belisha, Leslie Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Thurtle, E.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Ponsonby, Arthur Tinker, John Joseph
John, William (Rhondda, West) Potts, John S. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Viant, S. P.
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Riley, Ben Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Ritson, J. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Kelly, W. T. Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Kennedy, T. Rose, Frank H. Welsh, J. C.
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Westwood, J.
Kenyon, Barnet Salter, Dr. Alfred Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Kirkwood, D. Scrymgeour, E. Whiteley, W.
Lawson. John James Sexton, James Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Lee, F. Shiels, Dr. Drummond Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Livingstone, A. M. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Lowth, T. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Lunn, William Sitch, Charles H. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Mackinder, W. Slesser, Sir Henry H. Windsor, Walter
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Smillie, Robert Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
March, S. Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Maxton, James Smith, Rennie (Penistone) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Mr. B. Smith and Mr. Warne.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Clarry, Reginald George Haslam, Henry C.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Albery, Irving James Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley,
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Cohen, Major J. Brunei Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Cooper, A. Duff Heneage. Lieut.-Col. Arthur P.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E. Couper, J. B. Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W. Courthope, Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Astor, Viscountess Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.
Atholl, Duchess of Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Crook, C. W. Hong, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Balniel, Lord Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Barclay-Harvey C. M. Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gansbro) Holt, Capt. H. P.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Curzon, Captain Viscount Homan, C. W. J.
Beamish, Captain T. P. H. Dalkeith, Earl of Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Hudson, Capt. A. U.M. (Hackney, N.)
Bennett, A. J. Dawson, Sir Philip Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Dixey, A. C. Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)
Berry, Sir George Doyle, Sir N. Grattan Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Bethell, A. Drewe, C. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)
Betterton, Henry B. Edmondson, Major A. J. Jephcott, A. R.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Edwards, John H. (Accrington) Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Elliot, Captain Walter E. Kennedy, A. R. (Preston)
Blades, Sir George Rowland Elveden, Viscount Kidd, J. (Linlithgow)
Blundell, F. N. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Kindersley, Major Guy M.
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Lamb, J. Q.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.
Brass, Captain W. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Brassey, Sir Leonard Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Briggs, J. Harold Fermoy, Lord Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Briscoe, Richard George Fielden, E. B. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Fleming, D. P. Looker, Herbert William
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Forestier-Walker, L. Lowe, Sir Francis William
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Frece, Sir Walter de Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman
Bullock, Captain M Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lumley, L. R.
Burman, J. B. Gates, Percy Lynn, Sir R. J.
Burton, Colonel H. W. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham MacAndrew, Charles Glen
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Glyn, Major R. G. C. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Campbell, E. T. Goff, Sir Park Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Gower, Sir Robert Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Grace, John Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Greene, W. P. Crawford Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Gretton, Colonel John Margesson, Captain D.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Grotrian, H. Brent Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Meller, R. J.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hammersley, S. S. Meyer, Sir Frank
Christie, J. A. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Moreing, Captain A. H. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. Tichfield, Major the Marquess of
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Neville, R. J. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Sandeman, A. Stewart Wallace, Captain D. E.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Sanderson, Sir Frank Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Sandon, Lord Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Nuttall, Ellis Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Warrender, Sir Victor
Oakley T. Savery, S. S. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
O'Connor T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.) Watts, Dr. T.
O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) Wells, S. R.
Orsmby-Gore, Hon. William Shepperson, E. W. Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.
Pennefather, Sir John Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst) White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple
Penny Frederick George Skelton, A. N. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Perkins, Colonel E. K. Smithers, Waldron Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) Wise, Sir Fredric
Pilcher, G. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Womersley, W. J.
Power, Sir John Cecil Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)
Preston William Steel, Major Samuel Strang Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)
Price, Major C. W. M. Strickland, Sir Gerald Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'dge & Hyde)
Raine W. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)
Ramsden, E. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Wood, Sir S. Hill- (High Peak)
Rawson, Alfred Cooper Styles, Captain H. Walter Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Rees, Sir Beddoe Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. Wragg, Herbert
Remnant, Sir James Templeton, W. P.
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Captain Hacking and Major Cape.

Bill read a Second time, and committed.

  1. CLAUSE 6.—(Special provisions as to additional allowances and widows' and orphans' pensions.) 19,422 words
  2. cc2903-8
  3. CLAUSE 7.—(Old age pensions.) 1,890 words