HC Deb 02 July 1925 vol 185 cc2806-11

Can the Foreign Secretary say what business will be taken next week?


On Monday, we shall take the Board of Trade Vote. After 11 o'clock we hope the House will be willing to give, without any prolonged discussion, the Second Reading of the Mining Industry (Welfare Fund) Bill. We understand that this is a Bill which is practically an agreed Bill, and we hope, without any undue demands on the Members, that it may be taken after 11 o'clock.

On Tuesday, we propose to take the Second Reading of the Unemployment Insurance Bill.

Wednesday: Supply—Ministry of Labour Vote.

Thursday: Supply—India Office Vote.

Friday: Unemployment Insurance Money Resolution Committee, and other Orders to be announced later.


In regard to the business on Tuesday, the Second Reading of the Unemployment Insurance Bill—I must apologise for not having given private notice of this question—do not the Government take the view that it is necessary that we should have an actuarial report upon this Bill, because so much depends upon the actuarial estimates as to what effect the Bill has upon the position of the fund. Would the Government be good enough to circulate an actuarial report on this Bill before we discuss it on Tuesday?


I have not been personally informed, but I understand from my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Betterton) that an actuarial report will be published before the debate.


Can we have it on Monday?


I think so.


My hon. Friend will undertake to do his best to expedite the publication for Monday.


Would it be possible to get some statement of that kind before we discuss the contributions under the Pensions Bill? It seems to me impossible for us to discuss that Bill properly without knowing the bearing of the figures in the Unemployment Insurance Bill upon the liability which the country undertakes under the Pensions Bill. Would it be possible to get some estimate of what the expense will be, and what will be the bearing of the other Bill upon the contributions in the Bill now in Committee?


I am afraid I do not follow the question of my right hon. Friend. He is referring now to a different Bill If my right hon. Friend will be good enough to do so, perhaps it would be better for him to address his question to the Minister in charge of the Bill, and discuss with him what should be done.


Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is the intention of the Government to put down the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries Vote before the rising of the House?


I understand that that depends rather upon the conduct or attitude of the Opposition or Oppositions than upon the wishes of the Government.


The right hon. Gentleman has not understood my question. May I ask the Minister of Health, who is fully informed upon the subject and who knows the bearing of the question which I put, whether it would be possible for the House to have information as to what will be the actuarial effect of the Unemployment Insurance Bill upon the estimates of the Government in regard to the Pensions Bill now in Committee, before we discuss the contributions?


The Unemployment Insurance Bill does not affect the Pensions Bill. It has nothing to do with it. It is true that the reduced contributions which we propose under the Unemployment Insurance Bill may be taken into consideration when we are talking about the burdens and the effects on industry, but we have already settled the financial arrangements of the Pensions Bill by the Financial Resolution.


In debate the right hon. Member said that the benefits of the Pension Bill would be given for a reduced contribution from the employer and from the employé, leaving the House to suppose that the reductions made in the other Bill were made specifically for the purpose of the Pensions Bill, of which he is in charge. Therefore, does he not consider that the point is of very great moment, and that it is very necessary for the consideration of the Bill that we should have some information as to what will be the effect upon the pensions of the new unemployment insurance proposals?


No further information is required. All the information with regard to contributions is already at the disposal of the House.

Motion made, and Question put, That other Government Business have precedence this day of the Business of Supply, and that the Proceedings on the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill, and on any Private Business set down for consideration at a quarter-past Eight o'clock this evening by direction of the Chairman of Ways and

Means, be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 8, the Proceedings on any such Private Business may be taken after half-past Nine of the Clock.

The House divided: Ayes, 231; Noes, 124.

Division No. 251.] AYES. [3.52 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Dixey, A. C. Lynn, Sir R. J.
Agg-Gardner, Bt. Hon. Sir James T. Edmondson, Major A. J. MacAndrew, Charles Glen
Albery, Irving James Edwards, John H. (Accrington) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Elliot, Captain Walter E. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Elveden, Viscount McLean, Major A.
Astor, Viscountess England, Colonel A. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Atkinson, C. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Balniel, Lord Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Meyer, Sir Frank
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Fairfax, Captain J. G. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Fade, Sir Bertram G. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Beamish, Captain T. P. H. Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N. Fermoy, Lord Moles, Thomas
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Fielden, E. B. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Finburgh, S. Moore, Sir Newton J.
Bennett, A. J. Fleming, D. P. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Berry, Sir George Foxcroft, Captain C. T. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Bethell, A. Frece, Sir Walter de Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Betterton, Henry B. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Nuttall, Ellis
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Gates, Percy Oakley, T.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Blades, Sir George Rowland Glyn, Major R. G. C. Pennefather, Sir John
Blundell, F. N. Goff, Sir Park Penny, Frederick George
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Grace, John Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart Greene, W. P. Crawford Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Bowyer. Capt. G. E. W. Grotrian, H. Brent Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Power, Sir John Cecil
Brass, Captain W. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Brassey, Sir Leonard Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Preston, William
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Price, Major C. W. M.
Briggs, J. Harold Hammersley, S. S. Raine, W.
Briscoe, Richard George Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Ramsden, E.
Brittain, Sir Harry Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Rawson, Alfred Cooper
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Haslam, Henry C. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Brown Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Bullock, Captain M. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Burman, J. B. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Salmon, Major I.
Burton Colonel H. W. Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Campbell E. T. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Sandeman, A. Stewart
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Herberts. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Sanderson, Sir Frank
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester. City) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Savery, S. S.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Holt, Captain H. P. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Homan, C. W. J. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm, W.) Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.) Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Skelton, A. N.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Christie, J. A. Hurst, Gerald B. Smithers, Waldron
Churchman, Sir Arthur C. Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's) Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Clarry, Reginald George Iliffe Sir Edward M. Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Cobb, Sir Cyril Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Jephcott, A. R. Strickland, Sir Gerald
Cohen Major J. Brunei Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Cooper, A. Duff Kennedy, A. R. (Preston). Styles, Captain H. Walter
Cope, Major William Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Couper, J. B. King, Captain Henry Douglas Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Knox, Sir Alfred Templeton, W. P.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Lamb, J. Q. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Crook, C. W. Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Tichfield, Major the Marquess of
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Curzon, Captain Viscount Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Wallace, Captain D. E.
Dalkeith, Earl of Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) Looker, Herbert William Warner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Lowe, Sir Francis William Warrender, Sir Victor
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Dawson, Sir Philip Lumley, L. R. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Watts, Dr. T. Wise, Sir Fredric Wood, Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)
Wells, S. R. Wolmer, Viscount Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H. Womersley, W. J. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple Wood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater) Wragg, Herbert
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) TELLERS FOR THE AYES
Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) Major Hennessy and Captain
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Ritson, J.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hardle, George D. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Harney, E. A. Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Ammon, Charles George Harris, Percy A. Rose, Frank H.
Attlee, Clement Richard Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hayes, John Henry Salter, Dr. Alfred
Baker, Walter Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Scrymgeour, E.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Sexton, James
Barr, J. Hirst, G. H. Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Batey, Joseph Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Sitch, Charles H.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Snell, Harry
Briant, Frank Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Broad, F. A. John, William (Rhondda, West) Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Stamford, T. W.
Buchanan, G. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Stephen, Campbell
Clowes, S. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sutton, J. E.
Cluse, W. S. Kelly, W. T. Taylor, R. A.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Kennedy, T. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Connolly, M. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Thurtle, E.
Cove, W. G. Kirkwood, D. Tinker, John Joseph
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lawson, John James Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Crawfurd, H. E. Lee, F. Viant, S. P.
Dalton, Hugh Livingstone, A. M. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lunn, William Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Day, Colonel Harry MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Dennison, R. Mackinder, W. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Duncan, C. MacLaren, Andrew Westwood, J.
Dunnico, H. March, S. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Fenby, T. D. Maxton, James Whiteley, W.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Wiggins, William Martin
George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Montague, Frederick Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Gibbins, Joseph Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Gillett, George M. Naylor, T. E. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Greenall, T. Oliver, George Harold Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Palin, John Henry Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Paling, W. Windsor, Walter
Groves, T. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T. W. Ponsonby, Arthur
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Potts, John S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Riley, Ben Warne.