HC Deb 01 July 1925 vol 185 cc2691-5
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

I beg to move, in page 3, lines 40 and 41, to leave out the words "his death" and to insert instead thereof the words she had become entitled to a widow's pension. This is a purely drafting amendment to prevent possible misunderstanding of our intentions. The Clause is intended to cover the case of the illegitimate child who is living with its mother and its mother's husband. The first part of Sub-clause (2) deals with the case where the mother of the child survives her husband and becomes a widow. The second part of the Sub-clause deals with the case where the husband survives the mother of the child. The words originally in the Bill were Where the wife of a man has predeceased him and if she had survived him and died immediately after his death, an orphan's pension would have been … payable. It has been suggested that if a woman died immediately after the death of her husband it might be said that she never became entitled to a widow's pension, and therefore never entitled to the additional allowance, and in order to avoid that and make clear that that was not intended, it is proposed to leave out the words "his death" and to insert the words she had become entitled to a widow's pension"— when automatically, of course, the additional allowance would be given.

Mr. R. DAVIES

I am glad the right hon. Gentleman has endeavoured to make the Amendment clear. To me the Clause is perplexing. In the first place, under Sub-section (a) we deal with the case of the man, a widower, who dies, after the commencement of this Act and is insured at that date. Where his child becomes an orphan after the commencement of this Act, that orphan is entitled to the allowance under this scheme. Then we pass on to (b). The case there seems to be quite clear too, that where the widow dies after the commencement of this Act her child, who becomes an orphan, is entitled to an allowance under this scheme. I want to ask the Minister of Health or the Attorney-General this question: How comes it about that where the father has been insured under the National Health Insurance Scheme ever since 1912 and both the father and the mother die in 1925 and leave, say, three or four orphans, that those orphans are without any allowance at all, though the orphans of a man who dies immediately after the commencement of this Act are entitled to an allowance under this Act? I put the point because it seems to me that where a child becomes an orphan, say, in the middle of January 1926, he will be in receipt of an allowance under this scheme, although no contributions have been paid in respect of him, except contributions paid by the father or mother as the case may be, under the National Health Insurance Scheme. What I want to make clear is this; that I do not like the dividing line, because where a child becomes an orphan in the early part of 1926, it becomes entitled to an allowance, but the child which becomes an orphan just prior to the end of this year is left without any allowance at all, although the father's contributions have been paid since 1912. I must confess that the Amendment moved by the Attorney-General makes the position a little clearer, but I would like the Minister of Health to explain to us why there is a distinction between these two cases. I do not know that I need repeat the statemen I have made, but in my view the clear cut between December of this year and January of next year does not warrant the distinction of non-payment to the orphans whose parents died this year and the orphans whose parents die immediately after the commencement of this Bill. The Minister of Health, in introducing a scheme of this kind, ought to meet such anomalies. I hope I have made my point clear; if not, I will try again.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

Will the hon. Member say to what Clause he refers as the one which makes the distinction between December of this year and January of next year?

Mr. DAVIES

I am speaking of the whole of Clause 4.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

If the hon. Member will allow me to explain, I will do so. The Clause which gives the orphan existing before 1926 a pension is Clause 18. The hon. Gentleman will see, if he looks at that Clause, that it does give a pension. It is the Clause which gives orphans the right to a pension whether they become orphans after the commencement of the Act or not, and the only point to my mind is to make it clear that nothing prevents the mother becoming entitled to it.

Mr. DAVIES

If Members of the Committee will turn to Clause 3, they will see that it deals with widows' pensions. Clause 4 deals with orphans' pensions and Clause 5 with widows' and orphans' pensions. Then there are special provisions in Clause 6 as to additional allowances for widows and children. As far as we have gone we have only touched the question of orphans' pensions and I wanted it made clear that the point I raised was covered either by the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment or by paragraphs (a) and (b) of Clause 4. If Clause 18 covers it, I shall be satisfied. What I want to make clear is that a child who becomes an orphan before this Bill—

The CHAIRMAN

If the hon. Gentleman will look at the marginal note to Clause 18 he will see that it makes it quite clear that the point is dealt with satisfactorily.

Mr. JOHN BAKER

I would like to ask the Attorney-General if it is necessary for the mother of this illegitimate child to be an insured person?

The CHAIRMAN

There is nothing about an illegitimate child in this Amendment.

Mr. BAKER

I may be wrong but I understood the Amendment referred to that.

The CHAIRMAN

That was the Amendment of the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Harney).

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

This does include and is intended to include the illegitimate children of a woman who married a husband but may or may not be regarded as legitimate children. It covers the illegitimate child of a woman who has married an insured man.

Miss WILKINSON

Does not the child qualify on the woman's insurance. Why does the man come in in that case?

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

There are cases where the woman is not insured and the husband is.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.