48. Mr. TREVELYAN THOMSONasked the President of the Board of Education the number of children under the age of five and between the ages of five and six in the elementary schools in Middlesbrough Education Authority, and the money he estimates he will save on these children's education during the next three years under the new system of grants suggested by Circular 1,371?
§ The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Lord Eustace Percy)The numbers (on the registers) on 31st March, 1925, were:
As regards the latter part of the question, it is impossible to estimate what, if any, savings can properly be made in a particular area, as this must depend on local conditions.
Under five … 956 Five and under six … 2,482
Mr. THOMSONIs the Noble Lord aware that if the education of these children is to be maintained, any apparent saving will be at the cost of the local ratepayers; and does he not consider that the taxpayers are better able to bear the burden than the ratepayers in these necessitous districts?
§ Lord E. PERCYI do not accept the assumption of the hon. Member. He seems to ignore the fact that the Board will still be paying in grants more than 50 per cent. of the salaries of the teachers who are teaching the children.
§ Mr. COVEHas the Noble Lord fixed the amount to be received by the authorities over the next three years without knowing what the economies might be, or what the expenditure might be?
§ Lord E. PERCYI will answer that question, and I am sure the hon. Member will be interested in the answer. It is one of the beauties of the present grant system, that, although I am paying and Parliament is paying a grant on the current expenditure of local authorities, it is impossible for the Board ever to know what that expenditure actually is until six months after the end of the financial year.
§ Sir J. NALLHas the Board considered the possibility of making grants on the capitation basis?
§ Lord E. PERCYThat has often been considered, but I think my hon. and gallant Friend if he tried to devise a formula would find it very difficult.
§ Dr. WATTSIn the interests of the health of the children, will the Noble Lord, if possible, see that children under five are kept out of the elementary schools?
§ 55. Mr. STAMFORDasked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been drawn to a statement of the Director of Education in Leeds that the operation of the proposals contained in Circular 1,371 will result in an annual loss of grant, to be met out of rates, of £36,785, of the equivalent of a rate of 3½d.; and whether, in view of the concern felt by local education authorities as to the effect of the new proposals, he will consider the withdrawal of the circular and leave the matter open until he has ascertained the views of the authorities concerned?
§ 54. Mr. W. BAKERasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the Gloucestershire Education Committee is of the opinion that the effect of Circular 1,371 will be to prevent the 653 development of education and to throw a further burden on the ratepayers, and passed a, resolution to that effect; and whether, having regard to the widespread discontent, he will reconsider his position?
§ 57. Miss WILKINSONasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the Middlesbrough Education Authority had undertaken work at the instigation of the Department which will be jeopardised by the instructions contained in Circular 1371 unless much heavier burdens are thrown on the rates; and whether in these circumstances ho, can give special consideration to distressed areas?
§ Lord E. PERCYMy attention has been drawn to the resolution of the Gloucestershire Education Committee, and also to the statement made by the Director for Education for Leeds, but the hon. Members will not, I hope, expect me to accept without investigation the figures quoted by them. As regards the latter part of the Question, hon. Members know that I have arranged to discuss the whole matter with local authorities.
§ Mr. TREVELYANMay I ask whether one of the Noble Lord's colleagues, Lord Bledisloe, has discusssed the matter with him as he was asked to do by his council?
§ Lord E. PERCYYes, he has.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSIs the Noble Lord aware that the application of Circular 1,371, in the case of the West Riding of Yorkshire, will mean a decrease in these grants varying from £100,000 next year to £246,000 in 1929; and does he not think that, in these circumstances, it is bound to cripple the development of education in that area?
§ Lord E. PERCYI have received those West Riding figures. There is a great deal to discuss upon them, and I hope to discuss it.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSAre we to understand that very special consideration is bound to be given to districts of that kind?
§ Lord E. PERCYYes, special consideration is bound to be given to districts where there is a new population problem, 654 and where a large number of new schools have to be built.
§ Miss WILKINSONWill the Noble Lord be so good as to answer Question 57, which he lumped together with two others, but to which he did not give any reply?
§ Lord E. PERCYI do not see anything to which I have not replied.
§ Miss WILKINSONI asked a specific question in regard to work undertaken at the instigation of the Department.
§ Lord E. PERCYI cannot make any general statement, but I am prepared to discuss these things with the local authorities, and I am going to do so with the Association of Local Authorities next week. Meanwhile I cannot make any general statement.
§ Mr. COVEMay I ask whether special consideration or special expenditure will be made and confined within the terms laid down by the appendix to Circular 1371? Will the amount of money exceed the amount laid down in the appendix?
§ Lord E. PERCYI must return the same answer as I did to the hon. Lady. I cannot give any general assurance or make any general statement until I have seen the local authorities.
§ Mr. TREVELYANHow long will local authorities who have been making their plans for the approval of the Board up to now be kept waiting to know how much they will be allowed to spend?
§ Lord E. PERCYI have told the right hon. Gentleman I am meeting the Association of Local Authorities next week. But as to these local authorities having proceeded with the full approval of and at the instigation of the Board, I must remind the right hon. Gentleman that I specifically asked local authorities to defer non-urgent expenditure until they had submitter! their programme, so that I might be able to estimate the amount of money required and the amount of money available.
§ Mr. TREVELYANHow many of these authorities have already submitted their programmes? Are there not many who have the approval of the Board?
§ Lord E. PERCYNo; six authorities alone have up to now submitted programmes under Circular 1358, and none of these programmes have yet been approved.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESMay I take it that the Noble Lord will be able to make another announcement to the House before we adjourn for the Recess, and after the discussion with the local authorities?
§ Lord E. PERCYI hope so, but that will depend on the discussion with the local authorities.
§ 56. Mr. DALTONasked the President of the Board of Education whether the three years' programme of the London County Council, which has been authorised by the Board, will be partly or wholly suspended as a result of the. policy announced in Circular 1371; and, if not, how large a financial liability will be transferred from the taxpayer to the London ratepayer in respect of the completion of the programme?
§ 61. Mr. NAYLORasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that by the terms of the Board of Education Circular No. 1371 a serious situation will be created in London owing to the necessity of the London County Council having to provide for a deficiency of more than £300,000 a year in its present expenditure on education, and that such deficiency can only be met by in addition to the rates of about l½d. in the £, by the abandonment of the Council's present education programme, by the exclusion from the schools of children under five years of age, or by a combination of each of these methods; and whether, in these circumstances, he is prepared to withdraw the Circular?
§ 66. Mr. AMMONasked the President of the Board of Education whether he agrees with the estimate of the London County Council education authority that the proposals contained in Circular 1371 will result in a loss to that body of £460,500 in 1926–27, rising to £530,875 in 1927–28; and whether, having regard to the serious menace this represents to London education, he will advise the Government to withdraw the Circular?
§ Lord E. PERCYI am in consultation with the County Council on the effect of 656 the application of the Circular to their area, and I should prefer not to make any statement at this juncture.
§ Mr. DALTONHas the three years' programme to which reference is made in my question been authorised, and is it not jeopardised by the Circular?
§ Lord E. PERCYI am bound to speak under a great deal of restraint. I do not want to discuss in public the finances of local authorities when I am discussing the subject with the local authorities themselves in private. If the hon. Gentleman wants to know whether the Board approved of the programme, the facts are that the right hon. Gentleman my predecessor approved the programme in general terms, subject to and reserving his right to pass judgment upon each item separately as it came up for specific approval.
§ Mr. TREVELYANIf the, right hon. Gentleman did not want to discuss the finances of local authorities in public, why did he issue the Circular in question?.
§ Lord E. PERCYThe answer to that question is perfectly simple. As the right hon. Gentleman knows very well, the only way I could call the local authorities into discussion and give them a basis for discussion was by issuing a Circular, and that Circular contains no criticisms of local authorities, and certainly no specific criticisms of any particular local authority.
§ Mr. COVEWhen the Noble Lord meets the local authorities, will he be in a position to abandon the principle of a ration grant which is embodied in the Circular?
§ Lord E. PERCYI am certainly not going to abandon the principle that the liability of Parliament and the Government must be defined and that Parliamentary control over money shall not be rendered nugatory by automatic expansions of expenditure which has not been approved by Parliament.
§ Mr. DALTONMay I ask whether the policy lying behind this Circular is to make the children of this country pay for the reduction of the Super-tax?
§ Mr. SPEAKERWe cannot now go into that question.
§ 64. Mr. TREVELYANasked the President of the Board of Education, whether he is aware that the county of Northumberland is expecting to spend on elementary education alone £9,000 more next year than this year and £17,000 more in the following year, on expansion which has had the full approval of the Board of Education; and whether he proposes that the whole of this increase shall now fall upon the rates 1
§ 68 Mr. RILEYasked the President of the Board of Education (1), if he is aware that the provisions of Circular 1371 may mean a reduction in the expenditure on education in the City of York of £10,000 on the comparison with 1925–26; and if he will reconsider this reduction in the interests of the children of school age in that city;
(2) if he is aware that Circular 1371 will involve an additional rate of 2d. in the £ in the town of Scarborough if the same amount as is estimated for the year 1925–26 is to be available for the year 1926–27; and will he accordingly reconsider the Circular;
(3) if he is aware that the Batley Education Committee will, as a result of Circular 1371, suffer a loss of £2,174 on the basis of the estimates, 1925–26: and whether, as such loss will fall on the local ratepayer unless the education committee diminishes the expenditure by the above-mentioned amount, he will reconsider the policy of the circular?
§ 74 and 75. Mr. COVEasked the President of the Board of Education (1) whether he is aware that the effect of Circular 1371 on Kettering will mean an addition of a 4½d. rate; and whether he will reconsider the policy of the circular;
(2) whether he is aware that in Nottingham the reduction of one per cent. on the elementary school grant involves a loss of £3,000 in addition to £2,000 reduction on account of the children under five; and whether he will reconsider this policy?
§ 77. Mr. R. MORRISONasked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that the proposals outlined in Circular 1371 will cost the Urban District of Tottenham, approximately, £10,000 per annum, equal to a rate of 4d. in the £. without making any allowance for future educational developments; and, in 658 view of the fact that this district is already classified as a necessitous area, whether he will withdraw this circular?
§ 79. Mr. J. HUDSONasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that in Huddersfield the development of educational facilities which the Board have encouraged the local authority to project will bear as additional cost of £9,000 to the rates in 1920–27 if Circular 1371 comes into operation; and whether he will consider withdrawing it?
§ 80. Mr. TAYLORasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the system of grants embodied in Circular 1371 will, if put into operation, involve an increase of the local rates in the Borough of Lincoln of between £3,000 and £4,000 a year if the present standard of educational efficiency is to be maintained; and whether, in view of the existing high rates and the danger to educational standards, he is prepared to withdraw the circular?
83. Mr. HIRSTasked the President of the Board of Education whether he will consider the withdrawal of Circular 1371, in view of the fact that, if made operative, it will cost the ratepayer of Bradford £14,000 a year, or 1½d. in the £ additional rates?
§ 84. Mr. WH1TELEYasked the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the fact that the operation of Circular 1371. in the development of elementary and higher education in the county of Surrey, will involve an addition to the loan charges of £33,000. the whole of which will fall on the rates, he will reconsider the policy of the circular?
§ 91. Mr. MORGAN JONESasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that in Glamorganshire an additional shilling rate would be necessary to cover the reduction in grant proposed by Circular 1371 and the education commitments of the authority: and whether, in view of the gravity of the burdens already being imposed on this area on account of the incidence of other services, he will consent to the withdrawal of this circular?
§ 97. Mr. BROADasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the application of his Departmental Circular 1371 will hare the 659 effect of requiring an increase of 8d. in the £ of the rates in the area of the Edmonton education authority; that the rateable value in his area is but £3 per head of the population; that the yield of a 1d. rate is only 1s. 8d. per child of school age; and whether, in view of this result in this and many other areas similarly situated, he will withdraw the circular?
§ Lord E. PERCYWith the permission of the hon. Members, I will answer these questions together. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I do that not out of discourtesy to hon. Members, but because there is only one reply I can give to all of them.
Hon. Members must not expect me to accept without further inquiry the figures which they quote as to the financial effects of the proposals made in the circular in the particular areas referred to. I can only repeat that, as hon. Members are aware, I have arranged to discuss the whole matter with local authorities, and the proposals of the Circular are open to discussion in their detailed application to particular areas.
§ Mr. TREVELYANHad not the right hon. Gentleman in the case of Northumberland, when he made these new provisions, got: the figures of Northumberland before him, so that he, and his officials could at once tell what the effect on Northumberland would be, arid, therefore, cannot he say whether those figures are right?
§ Lord E. PERCYNo; I have just pointed out that, not only have I no means of knowing at this period of the year what the expenditure of local authorities next year is likely to be, but I have no means even of knowing in many eases what the expenditure of local authorities in the current year with which I am faced is likely to be.
§ Mr. R. MORRISONDoes the Noble Lord suggest that the Circular has not been understood by the directors of education in those areas under whose authority most of these figures have been given?
§ Lord E. PERCYI do not want: to make any criticism of the figures given by directors of education, but it must, 660 after all, be remembered that the forecasts of expenditure for next year, which, are commonly sent to me at about this time, have in previous; years always been very much over-estimated, and a number of other questions arise, not only questions purely of ever-estimating, but many other questions, and really there is no discussion possible except on the basis of the figures themselves.
§ Mr. MORRISONThen does the Noble Lord suggest that those figures given are exaggerated figures?
§ Lord E. PERCYNo, and the hon. Member is not going to entrap me into any accusation against officials of local authorities.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESWhat precisely does the Noble Lord, mean by the statement that he is going to meet the local authorities? Does, he mean to meet each separate local authority, or merely a deputation representing the whole of the local authorities?
§ Lord E. PERCYI am going to meet the Association of Local Authorities next week, and, besides that the fixing of a block grant must, of course, involve discussion with every local authority whose grant is being fixed, in order to ensure that no injustice is being done.
§ Mr. COVEIs the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this is not a block grant, but a ration grant?
§ 65. Mr. AMMONasked the President of the Board of Education the number of children under five years of age in attendance at the London County Council elementary schools?
§ Lord E. PERCYThe number (on registers) on the 31st March, 1925, was, approximately, 48,925.
§ Mr. AMMONDoes the Noble Lord appreciate that if the details of his circular are carried out, it will impose very great hardship on numbers of smaller bodies owing to the overcrowded conditions?
§ Lord E. PERCYI am afraid I do not understand what the hon. Member means, and obviously other hon. Members opposite do not understand what a block grant is. A block grant fixed on the figures of a previous year, whether that 661 be right or wrong, which I do not discuss now, cannot possibly encourage or discourage any particular type of expenditure.
§ Mr. AMMONDoes the right hon. Gentleman deny that in his circular ho specifically intimates that they should exclude children under five: years of age from school?
§ Lord E. PERCYThat shows the hon. Member has not troubled to read the circular, because, so far from that, the circular specifically states that no such inference is to be drawn.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI understand we are likely to have a debate.
§ Mr. COVEBut we might clear up this point? May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has not stated in A., in the Appendix, that he will penalise the authorities by taking away 30s. for each child in attendance below the age of five?
§ Lord E. PERCYThe hon. Member regards it as clearing up a, question by quoting one sentence of a paragraph, and carefully refraining from quoting the rest of the paragraph.
§ 70. Mr. RENNIE SMITHasked the President of the Board of Education how many children under five years of age are attending elementary schools, including nursery schools, in this country; and what reduction in numbers may be expected to follow the application of the financial policy indicated in Circular 1371?
§ Lord E. PERCYOn the 31st March, 1925, the number of children under five on the registers of public elementary schools was 221,797, and in nursery schools, 1,350. As regards the second part of the question, this would be affected by special local conditions, which I cannot undertake to estimate.
§ Mr. R. SMITHWould the Noble Lord say whether in practice he does expect there will toe an increase of 700,000 under five in the elementary schools next year, of whether there will be a decrease?
§ Lord E. PERCYI really cannot say It will depend on a number of factors. Certain local authorities have already slated that the education of children 662 under five docs not entail any extra expense upon them, and that the exclusion of children under five would not save them any money. In other cases, the admission or exclusion of children might make a great financial difference. My own judgment would be that in poor areas, areas where social conditions have hitherto led to early admission to schools, practically no difference will be made by this Circular,
§ Mr. R. SMITHIs it; or is it not the intention of this Circular to economise on the present expenditure on elementary education, and in particular on children under five?
§ Lord E. PERCYIt is not the intention of this Circular to exclude anybody from school who ought to be in school.
§ 71. Mr. J. BAKERasked the President of the Board of Education whether ho is aware that in Wolverhampton two schemes, one to make provision for 150 crippled children and the other to deal with 458 delicate children now attending the elementary schools or no school at all, will, under Circular 1371, have to be abandoned; and if, under these circumstances, he is prepared to withdraw or amend the Circular?
§ 72. Mr. BROMFIELDasked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the Burton Education Committee have, since the issue of Circular 1371 withheld sanction to the contract for the building of a new secondary school; and whether he will reconsider the policy of the Circular?
§ 86. Mr. DENNIS0Nasked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that, in consequence of issuing Circular 1371, the Warwickshire Education Committee has decided to take no further steps in equipping a residential school for mentally defective girls; and, having regard to the urgent need for such equipment, will he exempt this work from the operation of the Circular?
§ Lord E. PERCYI would refer the hon. Members to my reply of 8th December to the right hon. Member for the English Universities (Mr. Fisher), copies of which I am sending them. It was never my intention that new schemes of this kind should be undertaken in advance of the submission of programmes, 663 except in cases of real urgency, since such action would render futile the whole programme procedure.