HC Deb 03 December 1925 vol 188 cc2491-7
42. Mr. HARRIS

asked the President of the Board of Education why a circular has been issued to education authorities stating the Board's intention to reduce the grant by 30s. per child for children attending school under five years of age; and whether the suggestion has been made by the Board of Education authorities to give only partial instruction to children between the acres of five and six years of age?

The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Lord Eustace Percy)

I assume that the hon. Member refers to Circular 1,371. As regards both parts of the question, I would refer him to the first paragraph of the Note to the Appendix on page 4 of the Circular.

Mr. HARRIS

Does not this amount to a suggestion that the contribution from the Board of Education is to be reduced from 30s. to 5s., and will it not have the effect of discouraging educational authorities from keeping these children at school? Will not that affect in particular very poor districts, because it is only in very poor districts that these children are sent to school, on account of the very bad home conditions there? Will the right hon. Gentleman bear that in mind in pressing forward this Regulation?

Mr. MONTAGUE

Will the mothers who will now have to look after these "under fives," who may have had to work to help to earn the living for the home, be regarded in these circumstances as not genuinely seeking work?

Lord E. PERCY

If the hon. Members who put their supplementary questions will refer to the circular they will see that I have already had those considerations very much in mind, and have drawn attention to them in the circular.

Mr. PALING

May I ask the Noble Lord whether he did not put this reduction in operation for the express purpose of discouraging parents from sending to school their children under five years of age?

Lord E. PERCY

If the hon. Member will refer to the circular he will see that that is not the case.

Captain GEE

Is it not clear that people who live in good residential districts are taking advantage of this, although they could well afford nurses to look after their children?

Mr. COVE

In view of the tremendous-criticism that this circular has met with, especially the part dealing with children under five, will the Noble Lord now consider withdrawing it?

Lord E. PERCY

There is a question on that point later on.

Mr. PALING

Is it the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman that children under five ought not to attend school?

44. Mr. H. WILLIAMS

asked the President of the Board of Education the number of children under five years of age now attending the public elementary schools; and also the corresponding figures last year and in 1913?

Lord E. PERCY

The numbers (on the registers) are as follow:

31st March, 1925 221,797
31st March, 1924 211,348
31st January, 1913 300,899

Mr. W. THORNE

Has the Noble Lord got any figures to show the number of local authorities that allow children under five years of age to go to school?

Lord E. PERCY

Yes, I have got figures.

Mr. THORNE

Would the Noble Lord mind supplying Members with them?

Lord E. PERCY

I will see whether that can be done.

Mr. HARRIS

Do not these figures suggest that this grant has not been unduly taken advantage of, and that education authorities have only used this discretion where it was really necessary, where poverty required special treatment?

Lord E. PERCY

That is a matter of opinion.

Mr. PALING

Does the Noble Lord consider those figures too high?

Mr. SPEAKER

I do not think we can argue that now.

49. Mr. COVE

asked the President of the Board of Education, whether Circular 1,371 cancels the provisions of Circular 1,358 issued on 31st March last; and, if not, Low does he propose to meet the progressive expenditure involved in the plans demanded from local education authorities by Circular 1,358?

53. Mr. TREVELYAN

asked the President of the Board of Education, whether, in view of the stereotyping of the Government grant proposed in Circular 1,371, he intends to withdraw Circular 1,358, of 31st March of this year, which called for programmes of a progressive and continuous character from local education authorities, which were not required to be submitted till the end of this year or even Easter 1926, or whether he has any schemes in view for making such programmes effective without increased assistance from the national Exchequer?

Lord E. PERCY

I will, if I may. answer these questions together. As regards the relation of Circular 1,371 to the programme procedure, I would refer the hon. Members to the last paragraph but two of the Circular. While the grant which it is proposed to fix for the year 1926–27 will be guaranteed as a minimum for not less than three years, it does not follow that the grant will necessarily be limited to that amount during each of the years falling within the programme period contemplated in Circular 1,358. I think, indeed, that Circular 1,371 makes it more, rather than less, necessary that local authorities and the board should review the whole field of their responsibilities, both as regards existing expenditure and as regards necessary new services, and I anticipate that the discussions which I have invited local authorities to hold with me in the immediate future will, in fact, be based upon the programmes which they have been engaged in preparing.

Mr. COVE

Is it the intention of the Noble Lord to have a consultation with the local authorities individually, or in their collective capacity through their national organisations?

Lord E. PERCY

In the first instance I have asked the three English national organisations and the Welsh national organisations to meet me collectively. Of course, I shall be consulting individual authorities.

Mr. BUCHANAN

Seeing that this has an effect on Scottish education, will the Minister consider consulting the Scottish authorities?

Lord E. PERCY

Yes, I have considered that, and I have consulted them.

50. Mr. COVE

asked the President of the Board of Education whether, in view of the Circular issued on the 25th November by the Board of Education to local education authorities, stating in effect that they proposed to abandon the method of awarding grants on the 50 per cent. basis, and that the Board had decided to award grants in future at the discretion of the Board, he will say when it is proposed to introduce legislation with a view to repealing the provisions with respect to grants contained in the Act of 1921; and what saving to the national Exchequer is anticipated?

Lord E. PERCY

The legislation necessary for the introduction of a block grant system will be laid before the House at the earliest practicable date after Christmas. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for Penistone, a copy of which I am sending him.

51. Mr. COVE

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he proposes to reduce the grant to local education authorities by a sum of 30s. in respect of each child under the age of five years whose name appears on the school register on 31st March, 1925; and what sum he estimates the national Exchequer will save thereby?

Lord E. PERCY

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I have given to-day to the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Herbert Williams).

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider that this circular is likely to retard the building of new schools and retard the development of the mining districts.

Lord E. PERCY

I quite appreciate the hon. Member's question, and, as he knows, I have been over the ground myself. I do not think that that will be the case, and I certainly do not intend that to be the case. He may rest assured that I am considering very closely the peculiar position of the West Riding.

Mr. COVE

Will the noble Lord agree to withdraw this circular until he has considered all these relevant matters, and until he has consulted the representatives of the education authorities?

Lord E. PERCY

The hon. Member seems very anxious that I should answer that question before the question on the same subject which is down on the Paper.

54. Mr. RENNIE SMITH

asked the President of the Board of Education whether, seeing that the Board of Education have intimated to local education authorities that they propose to introduce a new code, he will say whether the regulations under this code will be confined to the minimum requirements for the purpose of grant; and whether he can state what are the minimum requirements which he contemplates embodying in the regulations?

Lord E. PERCY

The Board are reviewing all their regulations, but I am not yet in a position to make a statement as to the form and contents of the revised code.

Mr. SMITH

In view of the importance of Circular No. 1,371, will the Minister consider laying the contents of that circular in the form of a White Paper?

Lord E. PERCY

Copies of the circular have been in the Vote Office for the last two or three days, and if there are not sufficient there I will see that more are provided.

Mr. COVE

Does the phrase "minimum requirements" mean that there is an intention to limit the curriculum, scope and functions of elementary schools?

Lord E. PERCY

No, on the contrary. I hope to have a great deal less interference with the curriculum by the central authorities than in the past.

Mr. TREVELYAN

Will the light hon. Gentleman also put into the Vote Office the explanations which he has issued from day to day to the newspapers as to what the circular means?

56. Mr. T. THOMSON

asked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that his recent Circular on education finance has caused considerable alarm amongst local education authorities on the grounds that, if its proposals are carried out, either the present standard of education must be reduced or an additional burden will be placed on the local rates; and, with regard to the proposed reduction in the grant for children under five years of age, will he consider the possibility of exempting industrial areas from this change?

Lord E. PERCY

The hon. Member may rest assured that I am in close touch with local authorities. In reply to the second part of the question, I can only say that I shall be ready to discuss the details of the new proposals in their application to the area of any particular authority.

57. Mr. BRIANT

asked the President of the Board of Education if, considering the effect of the Circular 1,371 issued by his Department on the education of young children, he will withdraw the Circular until such time as the House may have an opportunity of considering the questions involved?

Lord E. PERCY

No, Sir. The fact that in Circular 1,371 I have asked for the advice of local authorities on its contents is the best guarantee that the problems indicated by the hon. Member will be fully considered.