HC Deb 02 December 1925 vol 188 cc2244-9
Mr. THURTLE

I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to repeal the Incitement to Mutiny Act of 1797. I believe this Bill will be quite non-contentious. I think it is common agreement in the House that the Act it seeks to repeal is an archaic and unnecessary piece of panic legislation. This House never legislates at its best when it is in a panic, and it was in a panic at the time it passed this Act. The mutiny at the Nore was then in progress, and I am afraid we must assume that the Commons of England as a consequence were in a panic. This Measure was never intended to be a permanent piece of legislation. Mr. Pitt himself, when he introduced it, made that quite clear. He said it was only a temporary Measure to meet a temporary emergency, and as proof of that I should like to cite the fourth Clause, which makes it clear what he meant. It says: And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid that this Act shall continue and be in force until the expiration of one month after the commencement of the next Session of Parliament and no longer. That was nearly 130 years ago. It is high time that Parliament now carried out the original intention of the authors of this Act. As a matter of fact, even from the point of view of dealing with mutinies in the Army it was not carefully thought out. Its phraseology is very loose and general. On that point also I can bring the testimony of Mr. Pitt himself. He says: Feeling the extraordinary pressure of the circumstances, he had merely brought forward a Measure which in his opinion was adequate to the end proposed. He regretted that the offences were so secret and so complex that it was impossible at present to define them, and under those circumstances he could not propose any Measure so definite as he had wished. If any Incitement to Mutiny Act is needed, we ought to have a carefully thought out Act which would consider the crime in all its relations. This Act is far too general and far too loose to deal with the crime it is supposed to deal with. Let me cite this possibility. Supposing the clergy of the country, quite contrary to precedent, were to start an intensive campaign amongst the troops to make them apply the Commandment "Thou shalt not kill." If they did that, there is nothing in this Act that makes it clear that that would be a crime. As a matter of fact there is no need, as the Attorney-General himself knows, for this Act to remain on the Statute Book. He was very careful to point out last night, quite correctly, that incitement to mutiny can be dealt with under the Common Law of the land. It may be said we can trust to the discretion and the good sense of the Law Officers of the Crown not to misuse the Act, but in the light of very recent occurrences we can see that if we trust to that good sense and discretion we are going to find our ancient liberties very seriously interfered with. Therefore I would much prefer to see the Act taken off the Statute Book. I am going to ask the House to say that this 18th Century rusty musket shall be removed once for all from the armoury of the law.

Captain BOURNE

In spite of the very honied tones in which the hon.

Member has asked leave to bring in his Bill, I think the House will hardly be ready to grant that leave. He says the Act was passed after a very serious mutiny, and that it was intended to be temporary. He seems to have overlooked the fact that it has been on the Statute Book for 130 years, and therefore successive Governments have found that it was necessary. Further we, who keep a very small Army in comparison with our very great Imperial responsibilities, have the more need for that Army to be absolutely trustworthy and loyal. I sincerely hope the House will not accept this Measure, even though introduced in such honied terms.

Question put, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to repeal the Incitement to Mutiny Act of 1797.

The House divided: Ayes, 114; Noes, 272.

Division No. 435.] AYES. [4.25 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hardle, George D. Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Ammon, Charles George Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Attlee, Clement Richard Hayday, Arthur Sitch, Charles H.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hayes, John Henry Smillie, Robert
Baker, Walter Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Barr, J. Hirst, G. H. Snell, Harry
Batey, Joseph Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Spencer, G. A. (Broxtowe)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Stamford, T. W.
Broad, F. A. John, William (Rhondda, West Stephen, Campbell
Bromley, J. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sutton, J. E.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Taylor, R. A.
Buchanan, G. Kelly, W. T. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Cape, Thomas Kennedy, T. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Clowes, S. Kirk wood, D. Thurtle, E.
Cluse, W. S. Lansbury, George Tinker, John Joseph
Connolly, M. Lowth, T. Townend, A. E.
Cove, W. G. Lunn, William Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Mackinder, W. Varley, Frank B.
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) MacLaren, Andrew Viant, S. P.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Wallhead, Richard C.
Day, Colonel Harry March, S. Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Dennison, R. Montague, Frederick Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Duncan, C. Murnin, H. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Dunnico, H. Naylor, T. E. Weir, L. M.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Palin, John Henry Westwood, J.
Gillett, George M. Paling, W. Whiteley, W.
Gosling, Harry Potts, John S. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Purcell, A. A. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenall, T. Riley, Ben Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Ritson, J. Windsor, Walter
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Wright, W.
Groves, T. Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R., Elland) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T. W. Rose, Frank H.
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Saklatvala, Shapurji TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Scurr, John Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Sexton, James Warne.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tyavil)
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Albery, Irving James Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. s.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Atholl, Duchess of Ganzoni, Sir John Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streathan)
Baldwin. Rt. Hon. Stanley Gee, Captain R. Montell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Morden, Col. W. Grant
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Goff, Sir Park Moreing, Captain A. H.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Gower, Sir Robert Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Grant, J. A. Murchison, C. K.
Berry, Sir George Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Nelson, Sir Frank
Bethell, A. Greene, W. P. Crawford Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter>
Betterton, Henry B. Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Bird. Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Gretton, Colonel John Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Blades, Sir George Rowland Grotrian, H. Brent Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Blundell, F. N. Gunston, Captain D. W. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Nuttall, Ellis
Brass, Captain W. Hall, Lieut.-Col Sir F. (Dulwich) Oakley, T.
Brassey, Sir Leonard Hall, Vice Admiral Sir R.(Eastbourne) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Briscoe, Richard George Hammersley, S. S. Ormsby Gore. Hon. William
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Hanbury, C. Owen, Major G.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Pease, William Edwin
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Penny, Frederick George
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) Harrison, G. J. C. Perring, William George
Buckingham. Sir H. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Haslam, Henry C. Peto, G. (Somerset. Frome)
Bullock, Captain M. Hawke, John Anthony Philipson, Mabel
Burton, Colonel H. W. Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Pilcher, G.
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) Pilditch, Sir Philip
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Asshetos
Caine, Gordon Hall Henn, Sir Sydney H. Preston, William
Campbell, E. T. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Price, Major C. W. M.
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Herbert. Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Radford, E. A.
Cazalet Captain Victor A. Herbert, S. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) Raine, W.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hilton, Cecil Ramsden, E.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Rees, Sir Beddoe
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir O. (St. Marylebone) Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Chapman, Sir S. Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard Remnant, Sir James
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Holland, Sir Arthur Rice, Sir Frederick
Christle, J. A. Homan, C. W. J. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Churchman Sir Arthur C. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)
Clarry, Reginald George Hopkins. J. W. W. Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Hopkinson. A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Howard, Captain Hon. Donald Salmon, Major I.
Conway Sir W Martin Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Cooper, A. Duff Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n) Sandeman, A. Stewart
Cope, Major William Huntingfield, Lord Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Couper, J. B. Hurd, Percy A. Sandon, Lord
Courtauld, Major J. S. Hurst, Gerald B. Savery, S. S.
Courthope Lieut.-Col. Sir George L. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W.)
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Crook, C. W. James, Lieut. Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Jephcott, A. R. Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Skelton, A. N.
Curzon, Captain Viscount Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Slaney, Major P. Kenyon
Dalziel, Sir Davison Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) Smith. R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Davidson, J. (Hertf'd, Hemel Hempst'd) Kindersley, Major G. M. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Davies, Dr. Vernon King, Captain Henry Douglas Smithers, Waldron
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Davison, Sir W. H.(Kensington, S.) Knox, Sir Alfred Spender Clay, Colonel H.
Dean, Arthur Wellesley Lamp, J. Q. Sprot, Sir Alexander
Dixey, A C. Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Stanley, Col. Hon. G.F. (Will'sden, E.)
Drewe, C. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Duckworth, John Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Eden, Captain Anthony Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Edmondson, Major A. J. Loder, J. de V. Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H.
Edwards, John H. (Accrington) Looker, Herbert William Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Elveden, viscount Lougher, L. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
England, Colonel A. Lowe, Sir Francis William Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murrey Fraser
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vera Tasker, Major R. Inigo
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Luce, Maj.-Gen. sir Richard Harman Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) Lumley. L. R. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Everard, W. Lindsay MacAndrew, Charles Glen Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Tinne, J. A.
Falle Sir Bertram G. McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Fanshawe, Commander G. D. Macintyre, Ian Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Fielden, E. B. McLean, Major A. Turton, Edmund Russborough
Finburgh, S. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Fleming. D. P Malone, Major P. B Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Margesson, Captain D. Warrender, Sir Victor
Forrest, W Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Fraser, Captain Ian Meyer, Sir Frank Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Frece, Sir Walter de Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Watts, Dr. T.
Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Wells, S. R.
White, Lieut.-Colonel G. Dairymple Wise, Sir Fredric Wragg, Herbert
Wiggins, William Martin Wolmer, Viscount Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern) Womersley, W. J.
Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.) TELLERS FOB THF NOES.—
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Woodcock, Colonel H. C. Captain Bourne and Major Colfox.