§ In Section seventy-six of the Army Act (which relates to the limit of original enlistment), after the word "person," where that word first occurs, there shall be inserted the words "of not less than eighteen years of age," and for the proviso in that Section there shall be substituted the words, "It shall be the duty of commanding officers to return to their homes all young persons discovered to have enlisted before attaining the age of eighteen years."—[Mr. W. M. Watson.]
1414§ Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr. W. M. WATSONI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
In moving this Clause, I hope I shall meet with more success than has attended the other Amendments that have come from this part of the Committee. The Clause is one which ought to appeal to all parts of the Committee. We find in many cases that irresponsible lads, merely because of some little trivial diffi 1415 culty, run off and enlist in the Army before they have attained the age of 18, and I think the House of Commons would do well if it laid down a rule that, no lad can be kept in the Army, unless by his own wish and the wish of his parents, until he has reached the age of 18. We deny ordinary manhood rights to men until they have reached the age of 21, and we are merely asking in this proposed new Clause that it should be possible for young lads who have enlisted before they were 18 to be released from the Army.
I have had to take up one or two cases in which lads have enlisted before reaching the age of 18, and I should not have complained so much if the right hon. Gentleman had not laid it down that, unless in a case where there are extreme compassionate grounds, there is no possibility of getting a lad, even under 18 years of age, released from the Army. I think it should be possible for the Army authorities to get all the men that they require for the Army over the age of 18. The House of Commons has a right to take into consideration little trivial things that occur in the life of a young lad, such as differences of opinion between himself and his parents. We know how lads are built, and what ideas they have between the time when they begin to work, say at 14 years of age, and the age of 17 or 18. They consider that they are men; they believe that they are men they act as if they were men; and, consequently, they exercise the right of enlisting in the Army. I think that the Secretary of State for War would do well if he accepted this Clause, and made it a. rule that, in future, lads under 18 years of age will not be kept in the Army, but will be sent home to their parents, if they are discovered to have enlisted before attaining the age of 18.
§ 8.0 P.M.
§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Captain Douglas King)I think the Mover rather misunderstands
the effect of the Clause he has put down. In the first place, he says that boys under 18 should be returned home, unless their parents and they themselves wished them to remain. That is not permitted under the Clause which he has just moved. There it is to be the duty of the commanding officer, whether the boy wishes to remain and whether the parents wish 1416 him to stay there, to turn him out. With regard to the point of boys joining before they are 18 under misstatement of age, I think the hon. Mover does not realise that if a boy is actually under 17 years of age he is given his free discharge on request, and when he is between 17 and 18 he can get a free discharge if he proves real necessitous home circumstances. These are the two cases at the present time where they can be released if they have mis-stated their age before they are 18. Another effect of this Clause, which I think the hon. Mover and his supporters have quite overlooked, is the fact that the Army takes a very considerable number of boys to train as musicians and mechanics. He rules those out of existence altogether by moving this Clause. The War Office have found it necessary, because of the difficulty of getting skilled tradesmen in the Army, to set up technical classes for training boys to become skilled mechanics. I cannot imagine any of the hon. Members can object to such a system of training. It is on the same lines as the apprentieship system in the outside trades, and I know many Members on the benches opposite are very interested indeed in this scheme of training for boys. I think they must have overlooked the effect that they had ruled these out of existence altogether. Seeing it is a misunderstanding I will say no more, but will ask the Committee to oppose this Clause.
§ Mr. J. BROWNWe do not suppose anybody desires boys to get into the Army at an early age, but whit we want is that any boy who joins under the age of 18 will be returned, and it will be the duty of the Commanding Officer to return him, if he has been enlisted under military service. That is the point we wish to put. I think it could be quite easily overcome if the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Gentleman who has spoken are willing to assist us in this matter. We think a boy under 18 is far too young to undertake military service. Remember this, that in these days boys are very much younger at 18 than they were some time ago. The school age has been extended and boys are younger at that age than they were. I do not think this Committee is asking very much if it asks that the lads will be returned by the Commanding Officer if they enlisted under military age.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
1418§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 136; Noes, 276.
1419| Division No. 70.] | AYES. | [8.8 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Harney, E. A. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Stan., Cannock) | Hayday, Arthur | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillebro') | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Ammon, Charles George | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hirst, G. H. | Slesser, Sir Henry H. |
| Baker, J. (Wolverhamton, Bilston) | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Smillie, Robert |
| Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) | Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Barnes, A. | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Barr, J. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Batey, Joseph | Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) | Snell, Harry |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jones, Henry Haydn, (Merioneth) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Broad, F. A. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) |
| Bromfield, William | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Stamford, T. W. |
| Bromley, J. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Kelly, W. T. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Buchanan, G. | Kennedy, T. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Kenyon, Barnet | Taylor, R. A. |
| Cape, Thomas | Lansbury, George | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lawson, John James | Thurtle, E. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lee, F. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lindley, F. W. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. |
| Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Livingstone, A. M. | Varley, Frank B. |
| Connolly, M. | Lowth, T. | Viant, S. P. |
| Cove, W. G. | Mackinder, W. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Crawfurd, H. E. | MacLaren, Andrew | Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen |
| Dalton, Hugh | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Warne, G. H. |
| Day, Colonel Harry | March, S. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Dennison, R. | Maxton, James | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Duncan, C. | Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) | Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney |
| Dunnico, H. | Montague, Frederick | Welsh, J. C. |
| Fenby, T. D. | Murnin, H. | Westwood, J. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Naylor, T. E. | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Gillett, George M | Oliver, George Harold | Whiteley, W. |
| Gosling, Harry | Owen, Major G. | Wignall, James |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Palin, John Henry | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Paling, W. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Greenall, T. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Ponsonby, Arthur | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Potts, John S. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth,. Pontypoel) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Windsor, Walter |
| Groves, T. | Riley, Ben | Wright, W. |
| Grundy, T. W. | Ritson, J. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W.Bromwich) | |
| Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) | Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hall, F. (York, W. H., Normanton) | Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W.R., Elland) | Mr. Hayes and Mr. Allen |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Parkinson. |
| Hardie, George D. | Sexton, James | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. | Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. |
| Ainsworth, Major Charles | Brass, Captain W. | Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips |
| Albery, Irving James | Briscoe, Richard George | Cooper, A. Duff |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) | Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Cope, Major William |
| Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby) | Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. | Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) |
| Applin, Colonel R. V. K. | Broun-Lindsay, Major H. | Craig, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. C. (Antrim) |
| Ashmead-Bartlett, E. | Brown, Maj. D.C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Crook, C. W. |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Brown, Brig. -Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Buckingham, Sir H. | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) |
| Atkinson, C. | Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Curtis-Bennett, Sir Henry |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Bullock, Captain M. | Curzon, Captain Viscount |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Burgoyne, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Alan | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Balniel, Lord | Burman, J. B. | Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. |
| Barclay-Harvey C. M. | Burton, Colonel H. W. | Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton) |
| Barnett, Major Richard W. | Butt, Sir Alfred | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Campbell, E. T. | Doyle, Sir N. Grattan |
| Benn, sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Cassels, J. D. | Drewe, C. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Eden, Captain Anthony |
| Berry, Sir George | Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) | Edmondson, Major A. J. |
| Bethell, A. | Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton | Edwards, John H. (Accrington) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Chapman, Sir S. | Ellis, R. G. |
| Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) | Charterls, Brigadier-General J. | Elveden, Viscount |
| Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Christie, J. A. | England, Colonel A. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Churchman, Sir Arthur C. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) |
| Blundell, F. N. | Clarry, Reginald George | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Clayton, G. C. | Evans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Everard, W. Lindsay |
| Fairfax, Captain J G. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Knox, Sir Alfred | Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stratford) |
| Fermoy, Lord | Lamb, J. Q. | Ropner, Major L. |
| Fielden, E. B. | Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R. | Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A. |
| Finburgh, S. | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Fleming, D. P. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) | Salmon, Major I. |
| Ford, P. J. | Loder, J. de V. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Forestier-Walker, L. | Lord, Walter Greaves- | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Forrest, W. | Lougher, L. | Sanders, Sir Robert A. |
| Foster, Sir Harry S. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere | Sanderson, Sir Frank |
| Foxcroft, Captain C. T. | Lumley, L. R. | Sandon, Lord |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | MacAndrew, Charles Glen | Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. |
| Frece, Sir Walter de | McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus | Shaw, R. G. (Yorks, W.R., Sowerby) |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Macintyre, Ian | Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D.Mcl.(Renfrew, W.) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | McLean, Major A. | Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y) |
| Gates, Percy | Macmillan, Captain H. | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley |
| Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John | Shepperson, E. W. |
| Gee, Captain R. | Mac Robert, Alexander M. | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Bt. Hon. Sir John | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfst.) |
| Goff, Sir Park | Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn | Skelton, A. N. |
| Grace, John | Margesson, Captain D. | Slaney, Major P. Kenyon |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Mason, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn K. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Meller, R. J. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Grotrian, H. Brent | Merriman, F. B. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Meyer, Sir Frank | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- | Spender Clay, Colonel H. |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) | Sprot, Sir Alexander |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.) |
| Hanbury, C. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Harland, A. | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) |
| Harrison, G. J. C. | Moreing, Captain A. H. | Steel, Major Samuel Strang |
| Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) | Stott, Lieut.-Colonel W. H. |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive | Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C. |
| Hawke, John Anthony | Murchison, C. K. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C, M. | Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Neville, R. J. | Templeton, W. P. |
| Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle) | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) |
| Henn, Sir Sydney H. | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Nuttall, Ellis | Turton, Edmund Russborough |
| Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A. | Oakley, T. | Waddington, R. |
| Herbert, S. (York. N. R., Scar. & Wh'by) | O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) | Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) |
| Hilton, Cecil | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Warner, Brigadier-General W. W. |
| Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Pennefather, Sir John | Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley) |
| Holt, Capt. H. P. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Wells, S. R. |
| Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) | Perring, William George | White Lieut.-Colonel G. Calrymple |
| Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Peto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Hopkins, J. W. W. | Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) | Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Philipson, Mabel | Wilson, M. J. (York, N. R., Richm'd) |
| Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. | Pielou, D. P. | Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield) |
| Howard, Captain Hon. Donald | Pilcher, G. | Winby, Colonel L. P. |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Hudson, R. S. (Cumb'l'nd, Whiteh'n) | Price, Major C. W. M. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Radford, E. A. | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Huntingfield, Lord | Raine, W. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Hurst, Gerald B. | Ramsden, E. | Wood, Rt. Hon. E.(York, W.R., Ripon) |
| Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) | Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel | Wood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde) |
| Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Rawson, Alfred Cooper | Wood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.). |
| Jacob, A. E. | Rees, Sir Beddoe | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Jephcott, A. R. | Reid, D. D. (County Down) | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Kennedy, A, R. (Preston) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Kidd, J. (Linlithgow) | Rice, Sir Frederick | |
| Kindersley, Major Guy M. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| King, Captain Henry Douglas | Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) | Colonel Gibbs and Major Sir Harry Barnston. |