HC Deb 27 May 1924 vol 174 cc221-9
Mr. TURNER

I beg to move, That leave be given to introduce a Bill to restore to the nation all lands, minerals, rivers, streams, and tributaries. I am supported in my contention that this should be done when I read the 24th Psalm:— The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. I am further fortified when I find in Ecclesiastes The profit of the earth is for all. I am further strengthened in my view by Leviticus, which says, The land shall not be sold in perpetuity for the land is mine. If I come to more modern times for the reason of my Bill, it was clearly indicated in the 'nineties by the Pope of the day, in a declaration that land, air and water should not be privately owned. If I take the most conservative of economists I find that Herbert Spencer says: The right of mankind at large to the earth's surface is still valid, all deeds, laws and customs notwithstanding. Then I find that one great statesman, who, I think, ought to have been a Prime Minister, indicated in 1885 that the problem of the country was to restore to the labourer the land, and that that was the land question with which the great mass of the English people are concerned. That was said by the right hon. Joseph Chamberlain. Those great patriots, the Chartists, the pioneers of all social reform for the past 70 years, declared that "the nationalisation of the land is the only true basis of national prosperity." It seems to me, taking those as my guide, that I am fortified in the proposition that the land should be restored to the people and used for the people's benefit. During the past 80 years 7,000,000 acres of common land have been enclosed. That was the people's land. During the past 50 years 400,000 Scottish people, land workers, have migrated from Scotland because of the land problem. There were in six Highland counties 1,709,000 acres used for deer forests in 1883. That total had risen by 1904 to 2,920,000 acres, a vast development in what may be termed the depopulation of the land. In 1770 we had 250,000 proprietors of land, but the number had dropped by 1900 to 30,300.

Let us examine the use of the land. There are 76,000,000 acres of land, of which 40,000,000 acres are uncultivated or not used as they might be. The policy of the Bill is to help, as far as possible, to restore the land to man and man to the land. The Bill also deals with minerals. There is not much controversy about minerals, especially below the Gangway on the Liberal Benches. I believe that last week Liberals indicated very strongly that, had the Nationalisation of Mines Bill been in favour of the nationalisation of minerals only, it would have had their whole-hearted support. I am very glad at the prospect of their support to-day, because I see no moral difference between what is on the surface of the earth and the minerals below the surface. The question is merely one of the thickness of the principle. I have some recollection of a famous land song which was sung with great enthusiasm in my early days, 40 years ago. It was called "The Land for the People," and I am still hoping, before I pass by, that the land will be restored to the people and my little Bill become an Act of Parliament. In connection with minerals, it is well to understand that during 10 years £60,000,000 has been handed in royalty rights to the royalty owners—3,800 of them, and there has not been a single one killed at the job. We have heard a great deal recently about emigration and immigration. I want our British folk at home; that is the place for them. There are millions upon millions of acres of land that used to be cultivated and that can be cultivated, and that is not cultivated now because private interests prevent it. Let us use the powers of the State to see that the land is restored to the people instead of spending and wasting enormous sums of money in colonising abroad. Let us have our people in our own land.

In days gone by I took part in what was termed a movement for the provision of food supplies in times of peace and war. During the recent War we were only a few weeks short of starvation. Some of us did starve with the stuff that was served out to us. [Laughter.] There has been a restoration since the Labour Government came into office. We ought to have as much land as possible at once for the use of ex-service men and others to whom we owe a great debt of gratitude. Taking the rateable value of much of the land that is not cultivated now, we could put these men on the land instead of giving them the hardest labour possible in clearing forests and rough country thousands of miles away, where at present some of them are having their hearts broken. How are these things to be done? I have no hesitation in saying that I do not believe in robbery. I am against robbery, because I remember the old quatrain: Great is the crime in man or woman, Who steals the goose from off the common; But who shall plead the man's excuse, Who steals the common from the goose. I am not suggesting that robbery should take place. I do not want to hurt a single person in the Kingdom. In my Bill I propose certain policies—that there shall be Land Commissions appointed, which shall be able to decide for us what is the proper plan for restoring the land to the people. As regards water rights, five years should be enough for the restoration of the water to the public. Scores of thousands of pounds are wasted upstairs in the Committee, because people need water supplies and those supplies are being kept from them. As regards mineral rights, seven years is long enough; and as regards uncultivated land, 15 years. My purpose is now to say that the Commissioners ought to have the power, and in my Bill have the power, to settle the plan of taking over, either by time or life or cash or bonds, but any land so bought should be on the declared present rateable value. We want the land speedily. Let us:

"Win back the fields of England for the poor, Give roses to our children's faded cheeks, Give to the hearts of women hope again; Bring back content into the lives of men."
Sir HENRY CRAIK

It is somewhat interesting to find that the assumption prevails on the benches opposite not only that all that they say is right, but that there cannot possibly be any difference of opinion on the subject. That was amply proved by the speech to which we have just listened. Hon. Members opposite are so satisfied with their opinions on economics that they will not even condescend to listen to arguments on the subject. The hon. Member has introduced this Bill with some genial quotations from and some references to the Scriptures. The Scriptures, he may remember, also tell us, under penalty of a curse, not to interfere with our neighbour's landmark. The hon. Member tells us that he is not going to interfere with property, but innocently, in a sentence later on, he limited the preservation of property to five or seven years.

I consider that it is a considerable interference if you declare to a person who has a rightful ownership that that ownership is to lapse in five or seven years, and, not only so, but that he is to consider himself as treated mercifully and considerately by that delay. We have been anxious to find out what are the views held by Members on the benches opposite. They have been singularly careful, and we have heard nothing as to their advanced opinions from the responsible leaders of the party. It is just as well that we should know what are the views that prevail on the benches behind them, and that beyond the walls of this House the clear intentions of Members who sit upon those benches should be recognised The hon. Member says that he is going to restore land, minerals, rivers, streams and tributaries to the people. Perhaps it is just as well that the opposing voice should come from one who has never owned, never hopes to own, and none of whose relatives has ever owned one single acre of land, and yet who considers, looking back at the economic history of this country, that private property is not only useful, but is essential in the interests of the country.

I wonder if the nationalisation of land in Russia at this moment has been for the good of the people? Is that the picture which the hon. Member would give us? Is he sure that the possession of land is not often a responsibility far more than a privilege? What about an offer which was made of the Island of Lewis, not so long ago by Lord Leverhulme, who offered to hand it over free of all charge? After due consideration, that offer was declined with thanks by those to whom ft was made. They found that the responsibilities of the ownership of land were far greater than its privileges, and that they would be poorer men if there were not those prepared to accept the responsibility. I recognise that it is the usual and not unreasonable custom of this House to allow a Bill to have its First Reading, but there must be limits to that custom, and to me there are certain things which this House, as the guardian of the interests of the public, ought not to be able or profess itself able to consider. This Bill is one of them, and therefore, without more words, I would ask the House to reject it.

Question put, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to restore to the nation all lands, minerals, rivers, streams and tributaries."

The House divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 176.

Division No. 83.] AYES. [4.6 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Duncan, C. Hodges, Frank
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Dunnico, H. Hoffman, P. C.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie
Allen, R. Wilberforce (Leicester, S.) Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern) Hudson, J. H.
Alstead, R. Egan, W. H. Isaacs, G. A.
Ammon, Charles George Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich)
Attlee, Major Clement R. Finney, V. H. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Ayles, W. H. Foot, Isaac Jewson, Dorothea
Baker, Walter Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) John, William (Rhondda, West)
Banton, G. Gavan-Duffy, Thomas Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Gibbins, Joseph Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Barnes, A. Gillett, George M. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Batey, Joseph Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F.W. (Bradford, E.)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Kennedy, T.
Black, J. W. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) Kenworthy, Lt. Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Bondfield, Margaret Groves, T. Kenyon, Barnet
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Grundy, T. W. Kirkwood, D.
Broad, F. A. Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Lansbury, George
Bromfield, William Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N) Lawson, John James
Buchanan, G. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Leach, W.
Buckie, J. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Lee, F.
Cape, Thomas Hardie, George D. Linfield, F. C.
Clarke, A. Harris, John (Hackney, North) Loverseed, J. F.
Climie, R. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Lowth, T.
Cluse, W. S. Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury) Lunn, William
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Haycock, A. W. Mackinder, W.
Compton, Joseph Healy, Cahir Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Cove, W. G. Hemmerde, E. G. Maden, H.
Crittall, V. G. Henderson, A, (Cardiff, South) Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Maxton, James
Dickson, T. Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.) Meyler, Lieut. Colonel H. M.
Dukes, C. Hirst, G. H. Middleton, G.
Mills, J. E. Seely, H. M. (Norfolk, Eastern) Viant, S. P.
Montague, Frederick Sexton, James Wallhead, Richard C.
Morel, E. D. Sherwood, George Henry Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Mosley, Oswald Shinwell, Emanuel Warne, G. H.
Muir, John W. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Murray, Robert Simon, E. D. (Manchester, Withingtn.) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Naylor, T. E. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C.
O'Grady, Captain James Smith, T. (Pontefract) Weir, L. M.
Oliver, George Harold Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Westwood, J.
Paling, W. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Spence, R. Wignall, James
Potts, John S. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Pringle, W. M. R. Spoor, B. G. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Raffan, P. W. Stamford, T. W. Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B.(Kennington)
Raynes, W. R. Stephen, Campbell Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Rendall, A. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Richards, R. Stewart, Maj. R. S.(Stockton-on-Tees) Windsor, Walter
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Sutton, J. E. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Ritson, J. Thompson, Plers G. (Torquay) Wright, W.
Robertson, T. A. Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)
Romeril, H. G. Thurtle, E.
Rose, Frank H. Tinker, John Joseph TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Royle, C. Tout, W. J. Mr. Ben Turner and Mr. Marley.
Scurr, John Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Elveden, Viscount Millar, J. D.
Apsley, Lord England, Colonel A. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Ferguson, H. Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A.C. (Honiton)
Atholl, Duchess of Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Moulton, Major Fletcher
Baird, Major Rt. Hon. Sir John L. FitzRoy, Capt. Rt. Hon. Edward A. Muir, Ramsay (Rochdale)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Frece, Sir Walter de Nail, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Barclay, R. Noton Gates, Percy Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Barnett, Major Richard W. Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Becker, Harry Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Beckett, Sir Gervase Greene, W. P. Crawford Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Bellairs, Commander Cartyon W. Gretton, Colonel John Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Berry, Sir George Grigg, Lieut. Col. Sir Edward W. M. Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Betterton, Henry B. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E. Perring, William George
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Gwynne, Rupert S. Pilkington, R. R.
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Blundell, F. N. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Raine, W.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Rathbone, Hugh R.
Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk, Peel
Brass, Captain W. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Rees, Sir Beddoe
Brassey, Sir Leonard Hartington, Marquess of Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Brittain, Sir Harry Henn, Sir Sydney H. Remnant, Sir James
Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chrtsy)
Brunner, Sir J. Hindle, F. Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Buckingham, Sir H. Hobhouse, A. L. Robinson, Sir T (Lancs., Stratford)
Bullock, Captain M. Hogbin, Henry Cairns Ropner, Major L.
Burman, J. B. Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.) Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C.
Caine, Gordon Hall Howard, Hn. D.(Cumberland, Northn.) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton) Russell-Wells, Sir S. (London Univ.)
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hughes, Collingwood Savery, S. S.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Shepperson, E. W.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Chapman, Sir S. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Chapple, Dr. William A. Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Clarry, Reginald George Jephcott, A. R. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Clayton, G. C. Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Spero, Dr. G. E.
Cope, Major William Kindersley, Major G. M. Stanley, Lord
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) King, Capt. Henry Douglas Steel, Samuel Strang
Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Lamb, J. Q. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Curzon, Captain Viscount Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Lane-Fox, George R. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Laverack, F. J. Tattersall, J. L.
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Dickie, Captain J. P. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Thornton, Maxwell R.
Dixon, Herbert Lumtey, L. R. Waddington, R.
Dodds, S. R. Lynn, Sir R. J. Ward, Lt.-Col.A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Dunn, J. Freeman McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Wells, S. R.
Eden, Captain Anthony Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Williams, A. (York, W.R., Sowerby)
Edmondson, Major A. J. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Wilson, Sir Charles H. (Leeds, Central)
Ednam, Viscount Mansel, Sir Courtenay Wilson, Colonel M. J. (Richmond)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Wood, Sir H.K. (Woolwich, West) TELLERS OF THE NOES.—
Winfrey, Sir Richard Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Sir Henry Craik and Sir William
Wise, Sir Fredric Wragg, Harbert Davison.
Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.

Question put, and agreed to.