§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYMight I ask the Lord Privy Seal whether he can now inform us of the business to be taken on Thursday, and, if it is the Navy Votes, which Votes are to be taken?
§ Mr. CLYNESThe Votes to be taken will be Navy Votes 8 and 9.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYWill the right hon. Gentleman also inform us when the proposed Vote of Censure is to be put down on the Paper?
§ Mr. CLYNESMonday is the date already mentioned for the Motion in question. I propose to make a definite announcement when I give the business on Thursday.
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYMay I ask if the Government take this as a Vote of Censure? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]
§ Mr. REMERHas the Deputy-Leader of the House received notice that the hon. and gallant Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) is now the Leader of the Liberal party?
§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHYOn a point of Order. Is not any hon. Member of this House entitled to ask a question as to the business?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is so. Had it not been so, I should not have called on the hon. and gallant Member.
The following notice of presentation of Bill at the commencement of Public Business stood on the Order Paper in the name of Mr. Adamson:
Education (Scotland) (Superannuation),—Bill to amend the Education (Scotland) (Superannuation) Act, 1922.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI observe that this Notice on the White Paper differs from the one on the Blue Paper. It must be understood that the notice on the Blue Paper is the effective notice. Therefore, I am afraid I must rule that the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman cannot be presented to the House to-day. Further notice will have to be given in due course.
§ Major McKENZIE WOODDoes that mean, Mr. Speaker, that we shall not have the Second Reading to-morrow?
§ Mr. SPEAKERIt means that the Bill cannot be presented for First Reading before to-morrow.
§ Mr. BALDWINMay I ask the Leader of the House, in that event, what he proposes to do to-morrow in regard to business?
§ Mr. CLYNESThe Bill will be offered for presentation to-morrow.
§ Mr. A. CHAMBERLAINDoes the right hon. Gentleman propose to take the First Reading of the Bill as the first Order to-morrow?
§ Mr. CLYNESThe presentation?
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINNo. Notice of presentation of the Bill has been given to-day, but that notice is invalid. Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to put down a Motion to introduce the Bill, not under this Rule, but in the ordinary form for First Reading, and to take the Debate on that? If not, what business does he propose?
§ Mr. CLYNESAs far as I can speak definitely for the Government at the moment, the Bill will be presented to-morrow in precisely the same form in which it was intended to present it to-day.
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINThen the Second Reading cannot be taken to-morrow in any circumstances. Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to tell us what is the business that will be taken?
§ Mr. BUCHANANSeeing that it is impossible to take this Bill dealing with the superannuation of teachers in Scotland, will the right hon. Gentleman consider taking the other Scottish Bill which has been presented, dealing with poor persons and small debts in Scotland, in its place?
§ Mr. STURROCKCan the right hon. Gentleman say what is the future hope for the Superannuation Bill, in view of this technical difficulty which has arisen in the way of its being brought in to-day?
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINBefore the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I try to make my point clear? I understand that the Bill cannot be presented to-day, and, therefore, the Second Reading cannot be taken to-morrow. The Bill could be presented to-morrow, or, alternatively, it could be introduced to-morrow, like the major Bills of the Government, and in that case a debate could take place on the First Reading to-morrow. That is my understanding. Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to adopt that course, if that course be in order—namely, of moving the First Reading formally to-morrow, subject to debated? If he does not, what is the effective business which we are to take to-morrow?
§ Mr. CLYNESThe first of those two courses would certainly be the more acceptable to us, if Mr. Speaker would allow it.
§ Sir HENRY CRAIKMay I point out that it would be extremely inconvenient to take what would practically be the important debate upon this very disputed Bill before the Bill is before us? I would emphatically protest against any effective First Reading speech being made to-morrow.
§ Major WOODMay I say that a great number of people have come from Scotland for the special purpose of hearing this Bill discussed to-morrow, and, therefore, it would be a great inconvenience to them if the Bill be not taken to-morrow, or if some discussion upon it be not taken in this House to-morrow; and that the details of the Bill are quite well known?
§ Colonel GRETTONBefore that point is dealt with, may I ask whether, if the Bill is dealt with to-morrow, it will not be impossible for it to be printed before the Debate, so that in that case the Bill will not be before the House, but merely the statement and explanation of the Minister will appear? Would not that course be extremely inconvenient, and would it not be in accordance with precedent, and with the Procedure of the House, that the effective Debate should take place on the Second Reading after the Bill has been presented?
§ Mr. CLYNESMay I be allowed to say, on those questions, that I understand that the Bill is but a short two-Clause Bill, and its objects are well known? It is, I understand, already either printed or in process of being printed, and I should hope that what appears to be a Departmental error will not stand in the way of the House being allowed to debate the matter.
§ Sir H. CRAIKIf it is impossible to obtain an effective Debate on this Bill to-morrow, it is not right that we should go on discussing it. I think it would be most inconvenient that the effective part of the Debate should be taken without notice, and without the Bill being before us.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIt is possible, of course, to take a Debate on the Motion that leave be given to bring in the Bill, but it is only after that Motion has been passed that the Bill can be officially printed, and, therefore, can be in the hands of Members. I believe there have been some cases in which a White Paper copy has been available, but the order for printing does not go out until the Bill has been read the First time, and ordered to be printed. For the rest, it is a matter for the Government, in the arrangement of business, whether, on the one hand, they will present the Bill to-morrow, and take the Second Reading and the Debate thereon at a subsequent date, or whether they will adopt the other procedure of moving for leave to bring in the Bill to-morrow, and take the Debate on that Motion.
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINMay I say that, in suggesting to the Leader of the House that it was possible to take a Debate to-morrow, if he wished it, upon a Motion for leave to introduce the Bill, I had no intention of suggesting that the ordinary Debate, or such Debate as might still be necessary on the Second Reading, should not take place? I was thinking of older precedents, when all Bills introducd by the Government, without exception, were debated both on the First Reading, on the Motion for leave to introduce, and on the Second Reading. I think Members of the Opposition, and, indeed the House generally, must claim their right to debate the Bill on Second Reading after they have seen it, even if the Government adopt the sug- 237 gestion which I made, in perfect good faith, to get them out of a difficulty and to overcome their inability otherwise to proceed with the Bill to-morrow at all.
§ Mr. MAXTONCould we have from the Secretary for Scotland a statement that this Bill merely extends the existing provisions temporarily for two years, and that there is absolutely no change whatever in the existing Regulations? It is a purely temporary Measure, and all this discussion is merely wasting the time of the House.
Mr. ADAMSONThe Bill simply seeks to extend for another two years the present arrangements for superannuation of school teachers. It deals with a very small matter indeed.
§ Major WOODMay we know from, the Leader of the House whether this Debate is to take place to-morrow or not? Is he aware that a great number of people have come down expressly for this purpose?
§ Mr. CLYNESThe last statement of my right hon. Friend has very greatly reduced what I regarded as the value of his first statement, and, in view of this, I think we shall have formally to present the Bill to-morrow, and take the Debate later on the Second Reading. I greatly regret if this course is the cause of any inconvenience to hon. Members.
§ Mr. STURROCKWill the right hon. Gentleman give every facility for the Bill which is to be introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) on Friday?
§ Mr. BALDWINMay I ask what business will be taken to-morrow in place of this Bill which was to have had a Second Beading?
§ Mr. CLYNESWe shall proceed with the other Bills on the Order Paper, starting with the County Courts Bill and the West Indian Islands (Telegraph) Bill.