OLD AGE PENSIONS. (Hansard, 26 June 1924)

§ Mr. STURROCK
It is very important that we should talk about the position in which the Government has allowed this matter to come before the House. There is a case where the Government has not really lived up to the statement it made in the country of the end of last year.
Here we have a case in which it is quite true, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made out a case against fulfilling the obligations under which he and his supporters appealed to the country at the last General Election. That I let go because I know that Members of all parties occasionally in the heat of an election promise more than they know they can fulfil. But there is one point I would like to impress on the Government. While they have endeavoured to meet the ease of old people who come of pensionable age they have left them open as before to the most inquisitorial examination which anyone can conceive. I know so well the horrors and distrust, that that sort of examination causes, that I would like to appeal to the Government to ask if it is not possible, to meet that matter. There is no question of party about this. When old people come to the point at which they are entitled to have the old age pension you have inspectors sent down to them who literally turn their affairs inside nut in order to discover what amount of money they have put by themselves, and what they enjoy in respect of any private pension. The whole thing causes the greatest consternation in many small homes. I appeal to the Government that they could do a great deal in this matter by interpreting the intention of the House of Commons more liberally than has been done in the past, by instructing the officials to go into the cases that come before them in a more generous spirit.

§ Mr. WESTWOOD
I am rather amazed when I hear complaints from hon. Members below the Gangway that all the anomalies in connection with old age pensions are not removed at one sweep by the present Government. Who was it that made the anomalies? Who was it who when they introduced the Old Age Pension Bill sought to penalise married couples? All we are seeking to do at the present time is to remove barriers by the 813 proposals contained in this Money Resolution.
I do want to plead with the Government if it be possible at all to alter the method of calculation in connection with the income of the aged people who are to benefit by this resolution. I know there are at least 200,000 old people in the country who to-day will be looking to the Labour Government. I am not so much interested about looking after the rich as attending to the poor. This resolution will provide something for the poor, but I trust we are not going to continue the unfair method of calculation which seeks to credit aged persons when they have saved a certain amount of money with 5 per cent. of income on it when they may only be getting 2½ per cent. If it be possible within the terms of the Resolution I trust that the Government will allow the calculation of means to be the actual income instead of a fictitious income.

§ Mr. RAFFAN
I hope this matter is not to be urged from the party point of view. I share the regret expressed by many Members of the party above the Gangway that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not found it possible this year to carry out the recommendations of the Departmental Committee which considered the matter. After all, the Resolution moved by the hon. Member for Bridgeton last year went a considerable degree further than the present proposals. I recognise to the full the difficulties of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am very grateful for what has been done, but I hope we may regard it only as an instalment, and that Members of all parties who have founded themselves upon the Report of the Departmental Committee may look forward next year or very speedily to the adoption of those proposals.
I associate myself entirely with the point made by the two hon. Members who have spoken as to the instructions which may very well be given with a view to lessening the nature of the inquiries. I was for many years Chairman of the Old Age. Pensions Committee in my own district and I am sure that my experience was the same as that of many hon. Members, and the feelings of the old people amongst whom inquiries were made were affected very materially by the particular officer who happened to be stationed at a particular place at 814 a particular time. There are officers who have acted in the most tactful way, who have carried out their duties in such a way that the Old Age Pensions Committee had every reason to be satisfied, and the old people themselves had no reasonable ground of complaint. But there are others who have felt it their duty to save the Exchequer every single penny they could scrape off the allowance the old people got. Again and again we disregarded the reports of certain officers and we sent up recommendations that they should be disregarded. I hope it will be possible so to frame instructions to these officers that these complaints may become things of the past. I would suggest, and I hope it is within the scope of the resolution that there should be an end to any inquiry as to whether members of the family are giving something. The income limit is there and we will not be able to get beyond it this year, but I do suggest that an inquiry as to whether a member of the family is giving a little assistance either in the shape of money or clothing or food is something which these people resent bitterly and rightly.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
We are not dealing with matters of administration under the Act. The proper place to discuss them is on the Estimate. We are dealing now with legislation.

§ Mr. RAFFAN
I am very much obliged, Mr. Speaker, for the indulgence which you have already given ale. I do not intend to pursue the matter further except that I think the traditions of the House and your willingness to assist, Members will enable us to put this point of view that those of us who are somewhat disappointed that we have not been able to secure greater concessions will be reconciled to a period of waiting if we can have an indication from the Members of the Government that the regulations will be interpreted in a more liberal spirit.

Mr. WEBB
I would just like to point out to the House that if we take proceedings in two stages it does not mean that the second stage will not be taken in due course. One step at a time! I would also ask the House to consider that before asking for more than a pension of £26 a year there are people who are more in need of assistance. We must consider whether some of the poorer pensioners do not need larger pensions and whether the 815 widows and children ought not to come first. I put that as really justifying the withholding of the completion of a system of universal pensions. With regard to the other point, I must not go into questions of administration, but I would say this, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had various matters of that kind brought to his notice, and he intends as far as possible within limits to meet requirements.

§ Mr. H. H. SPENCER
This is about the only proposition to add to the expenditure of the country that I have any pleasure in voting for during this Parliament. We should all have pleasure in this belated act of kindliness to those old folk, and I am very sorry one Member of the House is trying to make some false capital out of it. It is an act of justice which should be performed without a dissenting voice.

§ Mr. STRANGER
This is the first occasion on which I have made any kind of attack on the Labour Government, but I do not intend to say more than a few words. Everybody who sits below the Gangway knows that the Labour Government gave these promises six months ago. They seem to have forgotten one of the most important facts of all, the withdrawal of the thrift disqualification. They made promises six months ago and now they have an opportunity of withdrawing, first of all the thrift disqualification and, secondly, if they cannot do that, to withdraw the thrift disqualification in the case of all those who are not paying Income Tax. That would have been a simple way 816 of dealing with the matter. When people reach the age of 70 years and they do not pay Income Tax it is an indication that they have not too much money. How did the Labour party get their majority? The President of the Board of Trade says the Minister of Pensions is not here. Why is he not here? He knew the matter was going to be raised. That is how they show their sympathy for the people to whom they make promises. I have never yet made an attack on the Labour Government, but this time I must.