§ Mr. BALDWINMay I ask the Lord Privy Seal what will be the business for next week.
§ Mr. CLYNESI announce the business for next week with a slight sense of uncertainty as to the duties which this House may have to undertake in dealing with Amendments that reach us from another place to the Bills yet to be considered relating to Agriculture and Housing. But, subject, to some provision having to be made in respect of such Amendments, the business for next week will be the following:—
Monday: Factories Bill, Second Reading.
Tuesday and Wednesday: Appropriation Bill, Successive stages.
Thursday: Adjournment Motion.
The Government propose that the House shall reassemble for an Autumn Session on Tuesday, 28th October. The form of the Motion for Adjournment will be similar to that of recent years.
§ Mr. W. THORNEIn consequence of the pressure of business, which has to be dealt with next week, cannot the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of calling the House together early in the day, instead of late in the afternoon?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI would like to ask the Prime Minister whether he will be in a position, before the Motion for the Adjournment, to make a statement with 2249 regard to the proceedings of the great international Conference, over which he presides, and Whether he thinks it desirable that the House should adjourn until the 28th October without an opportunity being given to hear what the decisions of the Conference are, and to have a full discussion upon them, because obviously it would be too late to have any effective discussion on the 28th October, as the Government will be committed, and action will have to be taken.
§ The PRIME MINISTERIt might be inconvenient to reply to my right hon. Friend now, but if he will repeat his question on Monday I should be glad. I would like to answer him before that, and I will give him notice if I can, but I hope that I may be able to say something.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI can well understand the right hon. Gentleman not caring to answer now, and I shall certainly put the question on Monday.
§ Mr. BALDWINCan the right hon. Gentleman say when he will be able to Make a statement regarding the Russian Conference?
§ The PRIME MINISTERA statement regarding the Russian Conference will certainly be made on one of the various opportunities that may be taken next week.
§ Mr. P. HARRISAre we to understand that the London Electricity Bills will not be considered during this part of the Session but will be held over until after the Recess?
§ Mr. CLYNESI should like to have notice of that.
§ Mr. A. CHAMBERLAINIn reference to the business announced for Monday next—as the Factories Bill is both a Consolidation Bill and an Amending Bill, may I ask whether the Government could not separate the amendment of the law from the consolidation of the law, as it has been the general practice of this House to do, so that the Consolidation Bill may pass without any waste of time and without any discussion upon it on an assurance from the competent authority that it does nothing more than declare the law as it exists? As I understand, the Bill is both a consolidation of the whole of the law and an amendment of the law, 2250 and I should be glad to know if every Member of this House will have some means of ascertaining which are the amendments and which are the consolidation.
§ Mr. CLYNESOn the question of form, I am not able to answer affirmatively in the absence of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. I have not previously heard any objection to the form or character of the Bill, but I think that it is the intention of my right hon. Friend to issue a statement which will very simply and clearly explain the difference as between the new features of the law which are proposed and the consolidation of the old.
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINHas it not been the practice in Parliament to confine Consolidation Bills entirely to the mere means of consolidation and has it not been the practice to refer such Bills to a Committee of lawyers, with the sole object of ascertaining that a Bill is purely a Consolidated Bill and makes no amendment of the law, and does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it will raise great obstacles to Bills being introduced to consolidate the law if such Bills are mixed up with amendments of the law and therefore become the subject of controversy?
§ Mr. CLYNESI prefer to express no opinion on these questions, but the House should understand that in the main this Bill is one which is taken over from our predecessors, and alters the existing law only in certain details.
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINWill the right hon. Gentleman, between now and Monday, take into consideration what I have suggested, and consider whether he is really going the best way about either preserving the liberties of this House or getting speedy legislation?
§ Mr. CLYNESI will consult with my right hon. Friend on that question.
§ Mr. HOGGEMay I ask the Deputy-Leader of the House, with regard to the usual form of Adjournment Motion, are we to understand that the Government persist in the form of Motion which was adopted during the War by which the Government were to be relieved from the necessity of keeping a House, thereby depriving private Members of this House of the opportunity of raising questions on 2251 the Adjournment; and will they, instead of adopting this practice, revert to the previous practice of moving simply that the House do now adjourn, thus enabling private Members to raise questions in which they are interested, and leaving the responsibility of keeping a House to the Government, which is their responsibility.
§ Mr. CLYNESAs regards an obligation on a Government to keep a House on that particular day I cannot recall any promise being made by the Government. The form of the Motion to which I refer will be a form which will enable the House to be called together prior to 28th October if urgent business so requires.
§ Mr. HOGGEIs it not the fact that the present form of the Adjournment Motion means that, if the Government carry the present form of Motion, there is no responsibility at all on the Government to maintain a quorum in the House of Commons, or maintain in attendance a sufficient number of their supporters to move the Closure; and will they revert to the old practice by which private Members had a full opportunity of raising questions affecting their constituencies?
§ Mr. CLYNESI am unable to promise that, but I anticipate that, should there be any considerable number of Members interested in matters which they desire to debate, they will keep a House.
§ Mr. DENNIS HERBERTMay I state on behalf of many of us who are very much interested in this Factories Bill that we did not suppose that it was likely to come on before the House rose, and I myself, like others, have studied the White Paper, with the only result that it seems to us that the Amendments of the law are much more contentious than the consolidation, and we have not had sufficient time for a proper consideration of the very intricate White Paper, in order to discover the alterations in the law, and to be able to discuss the problem before we rise for the Adjournment.
§ Mr. CLYNESI think that it has been well known for a long time that it was intended to secure a Second Reading of this Bill before the House rose for the Recess.
§ Mr. W. THORNECan the right hon. Gentleman see any obstacle in the way of carrying out the suggestion which I have made that we should meet earlier next week?
§ Mr. CLYNESIf I did not see any obstacle in the way, I am certain that most Members of the House would. I understand, from the sources of information available to us, that ample time will be forthcoming next week to get through the business.
§ Mr. VIVIANDoes the Prime Minister contemplate making any statements concerning the policy to be followed at the Geneva Conference before the House rises?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI do not contemplate that for one reason—that the full Agenda is not yet disclosed to us.
§ Captain W. BENNAbout the form of the Adjournment Motion, the modern practice is to put down the Motion, "That this House at its rising do adjourn to" a specified day, which is followed subsequently by the Motion, "That this House do now adjourn." In reference to the form of those two Motions, will it be in order, if hon. Members think that we should not adjourn to the date named in the Motion, for us to move and discuss an Amendment to the prior Motion, suggesting some earlier date?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI think an Amendment such as the hon. and gallant Member has described would be in order, but on that Amendment it would not be open to raise the usually wide discussion. The Debate would have to be confined to the question of the date.
§ Captain BENNOn that point, may I direct your attention to the fact that the Amendment might be moved for the purpose of urging that time should be given for the discussion, for example, of the Conference, and such a discussion would be bound to be of rather a wide character. Therefore, I am putting it to you as to what form of redress Members have, if they wish to secure such a discussion, in face of the modern forms of the Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
§ Mr. HOGGEBefore you reply to that question, can you also answer this ques- 2253 tion—have you, Sir, any means of protecting the rights of private Members against Governments?
§ Mr. CLYNESMay I say that the date which I have announced is a date earlier than that fixed in many previous years, and it is a date fixed not without sonic consultation with those who represent other parties in the House.
§ Captain BENNMay I ask the Deputy-Leader of the House this question? Supposing hon. Members consider it desirable to adjourn for only a few days, in order that we may be here to discuss the result of the Conference, what must we then do in order to secure that the House meet?
§ Mr. CLYNESAs I have said, the Motion will enable the House to be called prior to 28th October if urgent business require it.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. and gallant Member put a question to me. I have a slight recollection of a similar point being dealt with by my predecessor, and I am not quite sure that the hon. and gallant Member himself was not concerned in it. I will take care to look up what my predecessor said.
§ Captain BENNI have a very lively recollection of the action taken by your predecessor. I remember that he confined the Debate to the narrowest possible limits. The point I am putting to you is this: What redress have Members if they desire that the House should meet in order to discuss this vital question of the Conference if the usual forms are gone through?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat question is a little hypothetical. The Conference may have come to a conclusion, and we may hear about it before we reach Thursday next.
§ Mr. HOGGEMay I ask whether you, Sir, have not some right to protect private Members against these arbitrary Motions of any Government?
§ Mr. SPEAKERMy impression is that three solid days for private Members—Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday—will allow for a fair amount of conversation.
§ Mr. HOGGEOn Monday and Tuesday it is the business of the Government, and the Government will see to it that the House is kept. Why ought it not to be 2254 the business of the Government to keep the House on the last day of the Session?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is not a question for me to answer.
§ Mr. BUCHANANSeeing that it has been stated that the Government have consulted other parties as to the Adjournment, may I ask the Deputy-Leader of the House if they have consulted the ordinary Members on the back benches of all parties as to whether the date is suitable or not, and, further, may I ask if it is the intention of the Government before we rise to make any statement in regard to the important question of the Irish Boundary Commission?
§ Sir K. WOODDo the Government still adhere to their decision to allow the House to rise before dealing with the Building Materials (Charges and Supply) Bill?
§ Mr. FOOTWill the House have an opportunity of giving a Second Reading to the National Insurance Consolidation and Amendment Bill, which is a purely formal and consolidating Measure?
§ Mr. CLYNESI am afraid that I cannot give a definite answer to the last question addressed to me. With respect to the Building Materials (Charges and Supply) Bill, we shall endeavour to proceed with that Measure on an early day after we reassemble. With regard to the question addressed to me by my hon. Friend behind (Mr. Buchanan), as to taking into account the feeling of Members on the Back Benches, the Government consider that on some occasions they represent those who sit on the Back Benches.
§ Mr. HARBISONWith reference to the Irish Treaty conference held this morning between the leaders of the parties in this House, I want to know from the Prime Minister whether it is his decision that this question is to be adjourned until the House meets on o 28th October? If that be so, the Prime Minister's decision, I am afraid—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member can only ask questions.
§ Mr. HARBISONIf that be the Prime Minister's decision, is he aware that all over Ireland, North and South, there is a feeling that is now becoming a conviction that the Government is not serious in pressing forward this case of the Irish Treaty.
§ The PRIME MINISTERThere is still a week before the House rises, and a statement will be made to-morrow on this question of the Irish boundary regarding the decision of the Government up to date.
§ Mr. FERGUSONMay I ask if the hon. Member for Fermanagh (Mr. Harbison) is interested in the North of Ireland or the Irish Free State?
§ Viscount CURZONMay I ask the Deputy Leader of the House whether it is intended to take the Lords Amendments to the London Traffic Bill to-morrow?
§ Mr. CLYNESYes, to-morrow.
§ Mr. FALCONERThere are on the Order Paper two Scottish Bills coming down from another place. Neither of the Bills is printed, and they cannot be obtained from the Vote Office. I want to ask whether I may assume that these Bills—the Housing (Scotland) Bill and the Town Planning (Scotland) Bill—will not be taken until the Bills are printed and available, so that we may have an opportunity of seeing them before they are discussed?
§ Mr. CLYNESI understand that there is not likely to be any discussion on these Bills.
§ Mr. FALCONERI must ask for an answer to my question—whether they will not be taken until there is an opportunity of seeing them in print?
§ Mr. SPEAKERIf an hon. Member raised an objection that the Bill was not printed, I should consider at once a Motion to adjourn the Debate.