HC Deb 21 July 1924 vol 176 cc1027-42

Any expenses incurred by the London County Council under this Act and under Section two of the Housing, etc., Act, 1923, as amended by this Act shall be defrayed as expenses for general county purposes.—[Sir Cyril Cobb.]

Brought up, and read the First time.


I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

This Amendment will give the City an opportunity of contributing its proper share towards the housing problem. At the present time we are not able to draw from the City that quota of rates which we should be able to draw if the City was not exempted. The City is, in itself, a county, and has all the privileges and rights of a county. Therefore it is its own housing authority. I want to do justice to the City, and say what it has done under previous Housing Acts in the matter of providing houses.

It must, of course, be remembered that the City has not at the present moment a large population, and, therefore, if it is going to be said that a local authority has to provide housing according to its population, it might be said that, in as much as the resident population of the City is a very small one, therefore very little duty falls upon the City for housing purposes. That, however, has not been the attitude of the City itself. It has recognised the fact that large numbers of people come into the City every day to work there, and it is those workers who make the City what it is. Therefore, the City has recognised Mat it has had a duty to provide a housing scheme. But, under the first Housing Act, it was only necessary for the City to make itself responsible for a pertly rate, and, in doing that, it kept pace with the other authority in London, namely, the London County Council, and both the County Council and the City were spending on housing their full penny rate.

When, however, the 1923 Act was passed, it became, apparently, distasteful to the City to provide houses under that very much larger scheme, and under the Act of 1923 and, so far as preparations are possible, under the present Measure, no housing has been undertaken by the City. Under the system of rating by means of a general rate—which means that the county council is able to draw rates from the whole area of London, including the City—£200,000 is brought in by a 1d. rate. If we have to exclude the City, which we have to do in the matter of housing, in the matter of tramways and in the matter of mental hospitals, then the ld. rate produces only £176,000. It is, therefore, clear that, if we have to exclude the City, as we have to do under the statutory provisions at present existing, we lose something between £24,000 and £25,000 on every 1d. of rate that we have to raise. The effect of that is that, if we have a great housing scheme, as we have both under the Act of 1923 and, in preparation under the present Measure, we have to find the same amount of money whether we are able to get our £25,000 from each 1d. of rate from the City or whether we are not.

Our argument is that it ought to be possible for us to use the wealth of the City in order to help the poorer boroughs of London to finance the very costly scheme which we shall have to finance under the present Measure. That is the main argument for asking the City to contribute to this housing scheme which has been launched by the London County Council. We are making no attack upon the City, but we say that, because we have to raise this very large sum of money, it is only the duty of the City to give us the quota which represents its share of the whole of London. The City is not in this way prevented from exercising its own independence in making schemes of its own. It would still be able to have its own scheme if it likes, just as any borough council within the area of London is able to have its own housing scheme. In the case of a borough council, not, only does it pay for its own housing schemes but it also pays its own quota towards the general housing scheme of the London County Council. We think the same principle should exist with regard to the City.


It was a little difficult to follow all the hon. Member has said from where I was sitting, and I hope he will not think me guilty of any disrespect if I do not follow him into all his arguments. As I understand the matter, the policy underlying the Amendment is to compel the City to contribute to the expenses of the schemes carried out by the London County Council. There is no desire on the part of the Government to take any party view with regard to this, and if anyone desires to have a division, which I hope in the interests of time will not be necessary, there will certainly be no desire to put on the Party Whips. The Amendment has occurred on many occasions previously. It is merely a dispute between the City and the London County Council and, as I understand it, the view of the City is that they are really not concerned in the housing that is undertaken by the County Council. They express a strong view that it would not be proper that they should be called upon to contribute to the expense. Personally I oppose the Amendment, but it is not a matter for the Government to intervene in. I hope the hon. Gentleman, bearing in mind that the Amendment has been repeatedly introduced and negatived in a succession of housing Bills, will see no need to press it to a division.


I am disappointed with the Attorney-General's speech. I thought, as a lawyer, he would be interested in getting justice done. Here is a case of ordinary common justice to the people of London. The hon. and learned Gentleman might very well study the housing history of the City of London and surrounding districts. All round the City of London are some of the worst slums in the United Kingdom. The main cause of these slums is the fact that the development of the City and the conversion of houses into banks and business premises have driven the people from inside the City walls to the surrounding districts of Bethnal Green, Whitechapel, Poplar, and so on. That is the main cause of our difficulties in London. The pushing out of the people from the City has enormously added to its assessable value. What had been valued as house property has now become of enormous value as banks, insurance premises, shipping offices, and so on, and the result, of course, has been enormously to add to the assessable value of the City and at the same time to add to the total burdens of the surrounding boroughs. The City has practically no resident population at all. The number of people who live within the City walls is something like 13,000, and therefore the demand for housing is nonexistent. It is true they are prepared, and they have in the past made some small effort to do some housing themselves, but the same effort has been made by all the boroughs of London. Woolwich, for instance, is developing a very large estate on its own account, bearing the cost mainly from the local rates. At the same time the borough of Woolwich is going to contribute its share of the penny rate, or whatever rate is levied, to make up the deficiency in the Act of 1923 and 1924. I am sure Woolwich is not going to shirk. The borough I represent, Bethnal Green, is going to take on a load of responsibility, and under its local rates is going to make contributions towards housing. Although a penny rate in Bethnal Green only brings in £2,500, it brings in £25,000 in the City. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I am surprised that a Labour Government, through its Attorney-General, should refuse to take any side in making this long overdue measure of justice to the poorer districts of London. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I am not surprised that hon. Members opposite are impatient at hearing these facts, because they have always some of them been in the pocket of the City of London. I hope a serious anomaly will be removed in the administration of housing in London.


As Member for the City of London I should like to say a few words. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] The City of London is quite ready to give, but its objects to having its pockets picked. In this simple Amendment, which seemed free from guile when proposed by my hon. Friend, I looked for nothing affecting my constituency until I found a similar New Clause proposed by a Member below the Gangway. Then I found a similar Clause proposed by an hon. Member sitting on the Government side. Then I began to be afraid. This unanimity seemed almost suspicious and I suspected some predatory policy. The remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for West Fulham (Sir C. Cobb) were so charming, that I almost felt inclined to give away the case, but when we consider, as he said, that the City has always been independent and in the past has not only borne its own share in the Housing Bill but has done a good deal more, I think the City is entitled to have some attention paid to it on this subject.


Every borough in London has done its share. The hon. Gentleman says the City has done its duty; no one denies that, but every borough in London has also done its share.


I quite agree with what the hon. Gentleman says. What I was about to suggest was that the City was ready to do more than its proper share. Let me give the Committee a few facts. Under the previous Act it was arranged that the City should still be independent. It was also arranged that the City and county council should put their heads together and agree on some joint scheme. The City has done that. Under the 19]9 Act it had arranged a scheme for building houses: These houses are not being built in the City. There is not much room to build houses there. On that account the City arranged with the county council to build 2,000 houses at Ilford. It also arranged to put up some dwellings in tile Old Kent Road. Those latter dwellings were completed. The buildings at Ilford were not because of instructions issued by the Minister of Health stopping the scheme. About 200 were built and 400 had their foundations completed, but the building was not continued because of the prohibition of the Minister. The City borrowed from £2,500,000 to £2,750,000 for this purpose. It has only spent. £750,000. As a matter of fact very little money has been spent under the 1923 Act. Operations under this Act for certain reasons have been suspended, but this month a large scheme is under consideration by the City for using the funds they have in hand. Nearly all these buildings have been built and practically all the money has been spent outside the City in the London County Council area The hon. Member who proposed this Clause said he did so in order to give the City the privilege of acting with the County Council. He also said that the City is independent. It asks to retain its independence because of its privileges, but for the future it is ready to pursue the same broad-minded policy and to make provision in co-operation with the County Council, for housing, although out of a sense of its dignity it prefers to spend the money itself and as it chooses. I have not taken long, and possibly I have not made out my case very well, but I think the City has a good case. We have as much desire to treat this matter in a friendly spirit as the hon. Member who moved the Amendment.

11.0 P.M.


The hon. Member for the City (Mr. E. C. Grenfell) has stated the case for the City of London quite as well and clearly as it could be stated. Nevertheless, he has not convinced me as to the injustice of the Amendment The case for the Amendment is exceedingly simple. It is not a question of interfering with the housing powers of the City Corporation; they are not in any way affected by this Amendment. Those powers will continue just as well as the powers of each Metropolitan borough council in the County of London. They have concurrent building powers with the London County Council, and if a borough council builds, it will have to bear its share of its own local loss on its own local rates as well as its share of the county loss. All we ask is that, if that is so with the borough council, it ought to be so with the City Corporation that, if they build houses within or without their area, they should bear their local loss, and that also as a part of the administrative County of London they should share with the poor Metropolitan borough councils the total loss of the housing expenditure of the London County Council.

A burden is imposed upon Poplar, for example, in bearing its own local losses in respect of its excellent little estate on the Isle of Dogs, and a burden falls upon Woolwich, with its very large number of houses locally built. They have to bear their local losses, plus their share of the county loss falling upon the county rate. If that is fair in the case of Woolwich, Poplar, Shoreditch, Bethnal Green, Hackney and Westminster—although Westminster is not building, so far as I know—it is equally just that that should be done in the case of the City of London. This Amendment means about £100,000 per annum ultimately, if the programme of the Minister, is adopted, to be met by the ratepayers, of London, and we say that the City should bear its share. May I point out that every man, whether he be Conservative, Labour or Liberal, who represents a constituency in the County of London, with the exception of the hon. Members who represent the City, that every one of their constituencies has a financial interest in this Amendment, and I hope that every London Member, with the exception of the two hon. Members representing the City, will vote for the Amendment. The Amendment is clear, just and fair. There are plenty of precedents for the City being associated with the County of London in this way, although they may have independent powers, and I hope the Committee will agree to the Amendment and do justice to the masses of the people in the County of London.


In view of the fact that the Government do not propose to put on their Whips, I may say that we do not intend to put on our Whips. We will leave the matter to a free vote. At the same time, seeing that the Attorney-General has stated his views, may I have the same privilege of stating that my own personal views are entirely in favour of the suggestion made by the hon. Member for the City (Mr. Grenfell). The hon. Member for South Hackney (Mr. H. Morrison) rather tried to confuse the issue.


I tried to make the matter clear, and I resent the suggestion that I tried to confuse the issue.


I beg the hon. Member's pardon. He did not try, but he succeeded in confusing the issue. The City through all the Housing Acts has maintained, by the authority of Parliament, its independent position. [Hon. MEMBERS: "Why?"] By the desire of Parliament. It is a separate housing authority on the level of the county council. It deals with its housing problems exactly as the county council does. It builds large numbers of houses, in accordance with its plans, and is prepared to go on building more and has the money ready. The City of London have already spent £700,000 during the last few years on housing schemes, and they are prepared to spend another £2,000,000 in housing people not merely in the City but outside the City, and these facts are sufficient, I hope, to induce not merely my hon. Friends on this side, but all those who on the other side respect the bargains which Parliament has made in previous years with regard to the position of the City of London, to vote against this Clause.


The success of the City depends on the people who work there. The City pay for the work which these people do, but the City should also bear its share of the cost of housing these people. Hundreds of thousands of people

who go to the City of London daily are housed by other areas, and it is not fair that the City of London should escape its part of the burden of housing these people. We are going; to vote on this question on the merits and not under the party Whips, and on the merite there is no question but that, this new Clause should be carried.

Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 273; Noes, 110.

Division No. 177.] AYES. [11.8 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H. Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Franklin, L. B. Kay, Sir R. Newbald
Alden, Percy Fremantle, Lieut-Colonel Francis E. Kedward, R. M.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Keens, T.
Alstead, R. Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North) Kenyon. Barnet
Aske, Sir Robert William Gates, Percy Kirkwood, D.
Ayles, W. H. Gavan-Duffy, Thomas Lansbury, George
Baker, Walter George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Laverack, F. J.
Banton, G. Gibbins, Joseph Law, A.
Barclay, R. Noton Gillett, George M. Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Gorman, William Lawson, John James
Barnett, Major Richard W. Gosling, Harry Leach, W.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome) Linfield, F C.
Batey, Joseph Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Livingstone, A. M.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th)
Birkett, W. N. Greenall, T. Loverseed, J. F.
Black, J. W. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lowth, T.
Bondfield, Margaret Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Lunn, William
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Grigg, Lieut.-Col. Sir Edward W. M. McCrae, Sir George
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Groves, T. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon)
Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Grundy, T. W. McEntee, V. L.
Briant, Frank Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Macfadyen, E.
Broad, F. A. Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Mackinder, W.
Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Maclean Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Macnamara Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.
Buckle, J. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Maden, H
Bullock, Captain M. Hardie, George D. March, S.
Burnle, Major J. (Bootle) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Marley, James
Cape, Thomas Harris, Percy A. Martin, F. (Aberdeen & Kinc'dine, E.)
Chapman, Sir S. Harvey, C.M.B.(Aberd'n & Kincardne) Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)
Chapple, Dr. William A. Hastings, Somerville (Reading) Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.
Charleton, H. C. Haycock, A. W. Maxton, James
Church, Major A. G. Hayday, Arthur Meyler, Lieut.-Colonel H. M.
Clarke, A. Hayes, John Henry Middleton, G.
Climie, R. Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South) Millar, J. D.
Cluse, W. S. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Mills, J. D.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.) Mitchell, R. M. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)
Collins, Patrick (Walsall) Hillary, A. E. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Comyns-Carr, A. S. Hill-Wood, Major Sir Samuel Montague, Frederick
Costello, L. W. J. Hindle, F. Morel, E. D.
Crittall, V. G. Hirst, G. H. Morris, R. H.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hobhouse, A. L. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Darbishire, C. W. Hodges, Frank Moulton, Major Fletcher
Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh) Hoffman, P. C. Murray, Robert
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hogbin, Henry Cairns Murrell, Frank
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie Naylor, T. E.
Dawson, Sir Philip Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Dickie, Captain J. P. Hudson, J. H. Nichol, Robert
Dickson, T. Isaacs, G. A. O'Grady, Captain James
Dodds, S. R. Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich) Oliver, George Harold
Dudgeon, Major C. R, Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Heath) Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)
Dukes, C. Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Owen, Major G.
Duncan, C. Jewson, Dorothea Paling, W
Dunnico, H. John, William (Rhondda, West) Palmer, E. T.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Egan, W. H. Johnstone, Harccurt (Willesden, East) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
Elliot, Walter E. Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby) Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Perring, William George
England, Colonel A. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Perry, S. F.
Falconer, J. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Ferguson, H. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Phillipps, Vivian
Finney, V. H. Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.) Potts, John S.
Pringle, W. M. R. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth)
Purcell, A. A. Smith, T. (Pontefract) Warne, G. H.
Raffan, P. W. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Raffety, F. W. Smith-Carington, Neville W. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford Snell, Harry Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Rathbone, Hugh R. Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. Welsh, J. C.
Raynes, W. R. Spence, R. Weston, John Wakefield
Rea, W. Russell Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Westwood, J.
Rees, Sir Beddoe Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.) White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)
Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple) Spero. Dr. G. E. Whiteley, W.
Richards, R. Starmer, Sir Charles Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Stephen, Campbell Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Ritson, J. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Williams, Lt.-Col. T. S. B.(Kennington)
Roberts, Rt. Hon. F.O.(W. Bromwich) Stewart, Maj. R. S. (Stockton-on-Tees) Williams, Maj. A.S. (Kent,Sevenoaks)
Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Stranger, Innes Harold Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford) Sullivan, J. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Robinson, sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Sunlight, J. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Romeril, H. G. Terrington, Lady Windsor, Walter
Ropner, Major L. Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Scrymgeour, E. Thornton, Maxwell R. Wintringham, Margaret
Scurr, John Thurtle, E. Wise, Sir Fredric
Seely, H. M. (Norfolk, Eastern) Tinker, John Joseph Wond, Sir H. K. (Woolwich. West)
Sexton, James Tout, W. J. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Turner, Ben Woodwark, Lieut.-Colonel G. G.
Shepperson, E. W. Turner-Samuels, M. Wright, W.
Sherwood, George Henry Varley, Frank B. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)
Simon, E. D.(Manchester, Withington) Viant, S. P.
Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Vivian, H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Smillie, Robert Wallhead, Richard C. Sir Cyril Cobb and Mr. Herbert
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Edmondson, Major A. J. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Allen, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James Elvedon, Viscount Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Amery. Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Atholl, Duchess of Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley FitzRoy, Capt. Rt. Hon. Edward A. Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Forestier-Walker, L. Rawson, Alfred Cooper
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Greene, W. P. Crawford Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Boamish, Captain T. P. H. Guest, Capt. Hn. F. E.(Gloucstr, Stroud) Remer, J. R.
Becker, Harry Gwynne, Rupert S. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Beckett, Sir Gervase Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Betterton, Henry B. Harland, A. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Blundell, F. N Hartington, Marquess of Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Bonwick, A. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Sandeman, A. Stewart
Bourne, Robert Croft Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Sassoon, sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Briscoe, Captain Richard George Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Savory, S. S.
Brittain, sir Harry Hood, Sir Joseph Somerville. A. A. (Windsor)
Brunner, Sir J. Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C) Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.
Buckingham, Sir H. Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Stanley, Lord
Burman, J. B. Howard, Hn. D.(Cumberland, Northn.) Steel, Samuel Strang
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Huntingfield, Lord Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Butt, Sir Alfred Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Frases
Calne, Gordon Hall Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Cassels, J. D. Jephcott, A. R. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Waddington, R.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Kindersley, Major G. M. Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton King, Captain Henry Douglas Warrender, Sir Victor
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Lamb, J. Q. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Clarry, Reginald George Lane-Fox, George R. wells, S. R.
Clayton, G. C. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H.
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Cope, Major William Lumley, L. R. Wilson, Col. M. J. (Richmond)
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. McLean, Major A. Windsor-Clive. Lieut.-Colonel George
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L.
Deans, Richard Storry Marriott, Sir J. A. R
Doyle, Sir N. Grattan Meller, R. J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.-
Dunn, J. Freeman Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Nail and
Eden, Captain Anthony Mitchell, W. F, (Saffron Walden) Mr. E. C. Grenfell.

Clause read a Second time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be added to the Bill."

Lieut.-Colonel Sir J. NALL

On that Question I should like to ask whether, in fact, it is within the scope of the Bill to include a Clause which will impose a rate on a local authority without any notice to that authority of such a provision? Due notice ought to have been given, and I suggest that the principle involved is one of the greatest importance. I wish specially to ask hon. Members who represent boroughs to bear this in mind.


How can this be a point of Order?


Is it in order for an hon. Member to contest your ruling, Sir, that the Clause is in order, as we have already divided upon it?


I do not understand the hon. and gallant Gentleman to be doing so. I understand that he is objecting to the Clause being added to the Bill.


I should be the last to question your ruling. What I am suggesting to the Committee is that to add this Clause to the Bill will imperil the further passage of the Bill, because notice should have been given to the local authorities concerned of such a provision as this.

The other point that I wish to make is this, that if this principle be accepted on Report stage and remains in the Bill, the point involved is of the greatest importance to every borough and city in the country. If cities like Manchester, Liverpool, and Birmingham, and every borough in the country are to be required, on the ground that the people working in them live outside their borders, to pay something towards the housing schemes in

areas outside, then the whole question is going to operate most unfairly, and the whole situation will have to be reconsidered. It s no use the hon. Gentleman opposite saying I know nothing about this scheme. I am fully aware that the conditions in provincial cities are different front the conditions in this particular case, but the principle is the same; and in the case of Manchester, although Manchester is able to conduct, and, in fact, is conducting, large schemes of house-building within the city borders, which the City of London cannot do, the fact remains that a vast number of people who work daily in provincial cities reside outside, the city borders On that ground, I say the principle involved in this Clause is of the greatest importance to every borough and every city in the country, and I hop: that hon. Members will have that point in mind and now join with me in dividing against this Clause being added to the Bill.

Question put, "That the Clause be added to the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 257; Noes, 102.

Division No. 178.] AYES. [11.25 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Hall, F. (York. W. R., Normanton)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Dickie, Captain J. P. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Dickson, T. Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)
Alstead, R. Dodds, S. R. Hardie, George D.
Aske, Sir Robert William Dudgeon, Major C. R. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Ayles, W. H. Dukes, C. Harris, Percy A.
Banton, G. Duncan, C. Harvey,C.M.B.(Aberd'n & Kincardne)
Barclay, R. Noton Dunnico, H. Hastings, Somerville (Reading)
Barnett, Major Richard W. Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Haycock, A. W.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Egan, W. H. Hayday, Arthur
Batey, Joseph Elliot, Walter E. Hayes, John Henry
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South)
Birkett, W. N. England, Colonel A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Black, J. W. Falconer, J. Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.)
Bondfield, Margaret Ferguson, H. Hillary, A. E.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Finney, V. H. Hill-Wood, Major Sir Samuel
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H. Hindle, F.
Briant, Frank Franklin, L. B. Hirst, G. H.
Broad, F. A. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E Hobhouse, A. L.
Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby) Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Hodges, Frank
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North) Hoffman, P. C.
Buckle, J Gates, Percy Hogbin, Henry Cairns
Bullock, Captain M. Gavan-Duffy, Thomas Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie
Burnle, Major J. (Bootle) George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton)
Cape, Thomas Gibbins, Joseph Hudson, J. H
Chapman, Sir S. Gillett, George M. Isaacs, G. A.
Chapple, Dr. William A. Gorman, William Jackson, R. F, (Ipswich)
Charleton, H. C. Gosling, Harry Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Church, Major A. G. Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome) Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor)
Clarke, A. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Jewson, Dorothea
Climie, R. Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) John, William (Rhondda, West)
Cluse, W. S. Greenall, T. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Johnstone. Harcourt (Willesden, East)
Collins, Patrick (Walsall) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby)
Comyns-Carr, A. S. Grigg, Lieut.-Col. Sir Edward W. M. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Costello, L. W. J. Groves, T. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)
Crittall, V. G. Grundy, T. W. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Guest, Capt. Hn.F.E.(Gloucstr., Stroud Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Darbishire, C. W. Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools)
Kay, Sir R. Newbald Palmer, E. T. Spero, Dr. G. E.
Kedward, R. M. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Starmer, Sir Charles
Keens, T. Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Steel, Samuel Strang
Kirkwood, D. Perring, William George Stephen, Campbell
Lansbury, George Perry, S. F. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Laverack, F. J. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Stewart, Maj. R. S. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North) Phillipps, Vivian Stranger, Innes Harold
Lawson, John James Ponsonby, Arthur Sullivan, J.
Leach, W. Potts, John S. Sunlight, J.
Lessing, E. Pringle, W. M. R. Terrington, Lady
Linfield, F. C. Purcell, A. A. Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)
Livingstone, A. M. Raffan, p. W. Thornton, Maxwell R.
Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Raffety, F. W. Thurtle, E.
Loverseed, J. F. Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford Tinker, John Joseph
Lunn, William Rathbone, Hugh R. Tout, W, J.
McCrae, Sir George Raynes, W. R. Turner, Ben
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Aberavon) Rea, W. Russell Turner-Samuels, M.
McEntee, V. L. Rees, Sir Beddoe Varley, Frank B,
Macfadyen, E. Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Mackinder, W. Richards, R. Viant, S. P.
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Vivian, H.
Maden, H. Ritson, J. Ward, G. (Leicester, Bosworth)
March, S. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F.O.(W. Bromwich) Warne, G. H.
Marley, James Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Martin, F. (Aberdeen & Kinc'dine. E.) Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton) Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. Romeril, H. G. Welsh, J. C.
Maxton, James Ropner, Major L. Westwood, J.
Meyler, Lieut.-Colonel H. M. Scrymgeour, E. White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.)
Middleton, G. Scurr, John Whiteley, W.
Millar, J. D. Seely, H. M (Norfolk, Eastern) Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Mitchell, R. M.(Perth & Kinross, Perth) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Mond, H. Shepperson, E. W. Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B.(Kenningtn.)
Montague, Frederick Sherwood, George Henry Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Morel, E. D. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Morris, R. H. Simon, E. D.(Manchester, Withington) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Windsor, Walter
Moulton, Major Fletcher Smillie, Robert Wise, Sir Fredric
Murray, Robert Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Murrell, Frank Smith, T. (Pontefract) Woodwark, Lieut.-Colonel G. G.
Naylor, T. E. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Wright, W.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
O'Grady, Captain James Snell, Harry Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)
Oliver, George Harold Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.
Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley) Spence, R. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—-
Owen, Major G. Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe) Sir Cyril Cobb and Mr. Herbert
Paling, W. Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.) Morrison.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Eden, Captain Anthony Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Allen, Lieut.-Col Sir William James Edmondson, Major A. J. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Atholl, Duchess of Elveden, Viscount Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B, M. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Beamish, Captain T. P. H. FitzRoy, Capt. Rt Hon. Edward A. Rawson, Alfred Cooper
Becker, Harry Forestier-Walker, L. Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Beckett, Sir Gervase Greene, W. P. Crawford Remer, J. R.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Gretton, Colonel John Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Betterton, Henry B. Gwynne, Rupert S. Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey)
Blundell, F. N. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Bonwick, A. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Russell, Alexander West- (Tynemouth)
Bourne, Robert Croft Harland, A. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Brass, Captain W. Hartington, Marquess of Sandeman, A. Stewart
Briscoe, Captain Richard George Henn, Sir Sydney H Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D
Brittain, Sir Harry Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Savery, S. S.
Brunner, Sir J. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Buckingham, Sir H. Hood, Sir Joseph Stanley, Lord
Burman, J. B. Horlick, Lieut.-Colonel J. N. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Howard, Hn. D.(Cumberland, Northrn.) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Frase
Calne, Gordon Hall Huntingfield, Lord Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Cassels, J. D. Jephcott, A. R. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Joynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir William Waddington, R.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Kindersley, Major G. M. Ward, Lt Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton King, Captain Henry Douglas Warrender, Sir Victor
Chamberlain, Rt, Hon. N. (Ladywood) Lamb, J. O. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Clarry, Reginald George Lane-Fox, George R. Wells, S. R.
Clayton, G. C. Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Wheler, Lieut.-Col. Granville C. H.
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Lumley, L. R. Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Cope, Major William McLean, Major A. Wilson, Colonel M. J. (Richmond)
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil) Meller, R. J.
Deans, Richard Storry Milne, J. S. Wardlaw TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Dunn, J. Freeman Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Nail and
Mr. E. C. Grenfell.

Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and agreed to.