HC Deb 08 July 1924 vol 175 cc2047-59

Section thirty-six of the Finance Act, 1918, is hereby repeated.—[Mr. Freeman Dunn.]


I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The effect of this Clause would be to reduce the Stamp Duty from 2d. to 1d. This is a reform long overdue, the desirability of which is frequently lost sight of owing to our familiarity with the stamp as it exists to-day. The revenue from the Stamp Duty on cheques is £3,050,000. In reply to a question which I addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he informed me that if the Stamp Duty were reduced to 1d. the revenue would suffer to the extent of £1,500,000. I think he is unduly pessimistic, and leaves out of account the largely increased number of cheques that would be drawn if the duty were reduced. In 1902, when Sir Michael Hicks-Beach proposed to increase the Stamp Duty from 1d. to 2d., he was met by the urgent representations of the bankers that this should not be done, and he yielded to those representations. The arguments then, in the main, were based upon the fact, as the bankers showed, that the duty would militate against the keeping of small bank accounts.

Those arguments which were used in 1902 are as cogent to-day as they were then, indeed more so. The reduction of the duty would not only promote the keeping of small banking accounts among that section of the community which has not yet contracted the habit, but there is the further point in these days when we are striving to encourage trade in every possible way as to the real need of our banking resources being marshalled and utilised to the fullest possible extent. I have been at some trouble to get statistics in regard to the Stamp Duty, and I find that of the total number of cheques drawn no fewer than 55 per cent. were cheques under £10. If that fact be taken in conjunction with the total of the cheque clearances, it will be found that the drawer of small cheques has to pay a tax of 2s. 6d. per cent. as against one half pence per cent. paid by the drawer of large cheques. Therefore, this Stamp Duty presses too hardly upon the drawer of small cheques and is a discouragement to the keeping of small banking accounts. That argument in itself ought to be sufficient to justify the Chancellor of the Exchequer in accepting the new Clause.

I will mention another matter and that is the currency economy that would result from an extended use of cheques consequent upon the reduction of the Stamp Duty from 2d. to 1d. I am sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer will agree with me that in the cheque we have an instrument so valuable that it is the finest piece of mechanism in exchange that the ingenuity of man has ever devised. We in this country have brought it to a fine art. In America they have gone still further. They have realised how unwise it is in any way to hamper the development of the cheque, by sweeping away the tax on the cheque altogether. In all movements for industrial progress in the past, the development of banking and the economy of our legal tender have been inseparable features from our industrial progress. For that reason, especially at this juncture, it is desirable that we should encourage an extended use of cheques by reducing the Duty.

The restricted use of cheques due to this extra Stamp Duty is having the reverse result from that which our monetary policy should have as its aim. It is making for the demobilisation of currency and credit in this country in so far as it makes for the retention in the tills of our traders and in the pockets of our people of currency notes that ought to be in the coffers of the banks. If we remove or reduce this tax we shall drive this superfluous currency from the tills and pockets of the people into the coffers of the banks, where it can be used for the purpose of fructifying trade. In pre-War days, currency stood at £2 per head, while to-day it stands at from £6 to £7 per head, so that even if we allow for the cost of living having doubled we still have a surplus currency of £2 to£3 which is idle and unproductive in the tills and the pockets of our people. Therefore, I contend that, roughly, the estimate that has been made by that well-known authority Sir Drummond Fraser is the correct one, that there is at the present time something like £100,000,000 of currency notes in this country idle and unproductive in the tills and pockets of our people.

That has the further effect that the bank balances are being unduly depleted. If these notes were forced back into the banks they would be able to increase their loans from the fact that their balances would be increased. It would have the further desirable financial effect which the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel) has at heart, in that it would make for the centralisation of our currency note issue into the hands of the Bank of England as against the Government. In so far as economy is effected we shall be strengthening the value of the £1 sterling, and that tendency would help towards a further desirable thing, namely, the return to the gold standard. I appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give us this concession which not only the bankers would welcome, but big business wholesale business, the retailers, the small trader and the private individual also desire. The London Chamber of Commerce have advocated it.

It would have the effect of encouraging the unknown many who up to the present time have not had banking accounts to open banking accounts if the Chancellor can see his way to make this concession. I ask him not to resist a suggestion which would have such widespread consequences to the community. The effect of the concession as far as he is concerned and as far as the revenue is concerned will be very small, but the importance to the trading community and to our currency will be great.


On a point of Order. I have a new Clause on Page 815 which goes rather wider than the Clause now moved. Will that Clause be called, or had I better speak on this Clause?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Entwistle)

The hon. Member's Clause later on the Paper has not been selected. Therefore, he had better speak on this Clause.


I wish to support this new Clause. One feels some diffidence in making any suggestion that might trench upon the resources of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in any way, but he indicated the other night that he might be willing to make some small concessions, although he pointed out that if he granted all the small concessions which were being asked it would undermine the whole basis of his Budget. I hope that this is one of the small concessions which he can see his way to make. When this matter was discussed in 1918, the proposal to increase the Duty from ld. to 2d. was made under the stress and emergency of war conditions at a time when the Chancellor of Exchequer was compelled to look around and to seek all possible means for increasing his revenue. It was recognised at that time that the effect of that increase would considerably retard the expansion of the use of cheques. Some hon. Members went so far as to say that if it had that effect it would be a good thing at that time, in as much as it would reduce the pressure on banking staffs which were so much depleted.

It is difficult to estimate what has been the effect of the increased duty as regards retarding the expansion of the use of cheques, but it is interesting to note the value per cheque in the various years since the tax was increased. I have the figures for the years 1917–18 up to the years 1923–24 of the number of cheques used in this country and the total clearinghouse returns for the corresponding years. In the year 1917–18, 306,000,000 cheques were used, and the total amount of the bankers' clearances for that year was £19,335,000,000, which gives an average per cheque of approximately£63. The corresponding figures for the succeeding years were £72 in 1918–19;£95, 1919–20 and 1920–21;£110, 1921–22;£108 in 1922–23, and£101 for last year. It may be argued that the increase in the value per cheque may be accounted for to a large extent by the increase in prices of commodities, but I think that the increase which is shown in these figures is in itself very significant.

What we have to try to gauge is what has been the effect in checking the increase in the use of cheques. My hon. Friend has referred to the value per cheque, and the percentage of the cheques drawn for amounts under £10. If you come to think of the fact that enormous numbers of these cheques are issued for amounts of £1 and under, and the percentage tax on the cheque of£1 is something like three-quarters per cent., one realises how onerous the tax is on small cheques. Anyone who makes inquiries will discover that there has been a growing tendency to pay small accounts by currency and notes, with the result that people carry an enormous amount of currency in their pockets My hon. Friend has referred to the fact that there is no stamp duty on cheques in the United States, and those who have lived in that country, I believe, all confirm the opinion that the use of the cheque is enormously more popular there than it is in this country. It would be too much to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to concede complete exemption, but I do think that he might seriously consider this concession. One hears a great deal in these days about the assistance which the Government might render to trade and industry. To my mind a great many people look for far too much in that respect from the Government. There are decided limitations to what the Government can do in this regard, but they can do a great deal in the way of clearing the channels of trade. I think that this is one of the small reforms which might be made, and which would be of considerable value in helping to clear the channels of trade, especially at a time like the present, when we want to do everything which we can to stimulate trade.


I have put down an Amendment which goes further than this Clause, and I must therefore support my hon. Friend opposite. I go so far as to ask that the Stamp Duty which is chargeable under the Stamp Act, 1891, should be extinguished. I do not ask for that because I want the 2d. to be saved to the taxpayer. I want it for a far wider purpose than that. I want to help us to get back to a free export market for gold. One of the steps towards that end, and I think I have explained it on many occasions, is the increased use of the cheque. The cheque was invented originally as a substitute for the wasteful bank-note. Cheque currency is one of the most wonderfully useful instruments of finance that have ever been invented, and the clog of a duty of ld. or 2d. on cheques operates towards preventing the extension of the use of cheque currency.

We have got in this country a great and popular use of cheque currency. France is trying to get it, and the United States and Germany are trying to get it. I do not agree with my hon. Friends opposite in saying that there is a greater cheque currency in the United States. They do not know how to handle a cheque currency in the United States in any way comparable to the way in which we handle it, and Germany, France and the United States would do anything they could to get their system of finance on a similar basis of cheque currency. While we have this splendid system, what we are now doing is, for this trumpery £3,000,000 a year, putting a clog on the use of cheques. People are disinclined, I do not know why, to draw small cheques now and spend the two pennies per cheque. They prefer to draw large cheques and to have a large number of notes immobile in a drawer or in their pockets. It is a stupid thing to have much money in hand liquid in this way. I avoid carrying much money about me. If I have it I spend it. It burns a hole in my pocket, and the man who draws more notes than he wants, just to save the 2d. on the cheque, will fritter it away or spend more than he requires.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer gets£3,000,000, and, because people will not use cheques on account of the 2d., he may get a few pounds for postal orders. But that is all the advantage which he gets. The disadvantage is that people carry too many notes in their pockets while, if they left some of them in the bank, and drew out their payments by cheque, as they were wanted, those same notes would be available to be lent, and if they were left in larger volume in the banks there would be a larger amount of money to lend, and money would be cheaper. There are in issue now £290,000,000 sterling currency notes, and, if you add the Bank of England notes, you have an issue of something like £407,000,000. If you could induce people to take out fewer notes and, instead, use cheques, by taking the 2d. stamps off, you would probably leave a hundred millions more in the coffers of the various banks, and, in the result, you would lose £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 stamp duty, but you would probably, owing to the banks having more money to lend, bring down the price of money and be able to borrow on your Treasury Bills more cheaply, and very likely you might get back your£3,000,000 quite easily by the smaller interest you would have to pay for the Treasury Bills.

But I would go a little further. The more currency notes that you have in existence, because people draw a larger volume of currency notes to avoid paying the 2d. on cheques, the larger amount of gold cover you have got to have. That is a block on our road towards a free export market in gold. If you have not to keep so much gold to cover these notes, because you are using cheques, you have gone a step towards that very desirable goal. If you do not use notes but cheques, the cheques will be drawn by a man on his own credit account, and they provide their own fiduciary cover. I am not pleading that this duty of 2d. should be taken off cheques because I want to save the taxpayers' pockets. It is because I want to take away what is a stumbling block on our road towards a free export market in gold, that I think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to look at the matter from the wider point of view, rather than from the point of view of revenue.


I never dreamt, until I heard the speech of the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment, that in the difference between 2d. and ld. on cheques we had the solution of all our economic financial and trade difficulties, and that the reduction which is proposed in this Amendment from 2d. to 1d. was going to increase bank deposits, going to increase the lending power of the banks, and going to rectify the exchange between this country and the United States of America.


I never said so.


I do not think that I misrepresent the hon. Gentleman. I am sure that every Member of the Committee who heard the speeches will agree that I am not doing so. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] The hon. Member referred to the effect which it would have on foreign exchange. I was in the House of Commons when the duty was raised from ld. to 2d. and I remember speaking against it, but there is all the difference in the world between opposing a proposition and dealing with a matter which is already an established fact. It cannot be denied that the gloomy anticipations, which were suggested in 1918 when the duty was raised, as to a falling off in the use of cheques, have not been realised. The figures show that the increase in the use of cheques, since the duty was increased, has been in no way affected. Since that date there has been an annual increase in the number of cheques. It is true that in one year, 1920, the figure rose very high, and that in the slump which followed there has been a decline on the figure for that year, but, still, in the last three years there has been an increase each year in the number of cheques issued, and the number for 1923–24 was 367,000,000 in the 12 months. In the year before the duty was raised the number was 298,000,000. There was, therefore, an increase in the number of cheques used, notwithstanding the increase in the duty, of 68,000,000.

7.0 P.M.

I do not think that those figures tend to support the argument that has been advanced in support of the reduction of the present duty of 2d. I was reminded of the Debates which took place six years ago, when the proposed increase was submitted 0to the House of Commons, by the arguments used by the hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel) that there was a tendency to draw cheques for larger sums on account of the increase in the duty and to keep the money in people's pockets, but I think that the experience is that, after a falling off in the use of cheques on the part of some people, those people soon returned to the old practice, and they continue to draw cheques with a 2d. stamp just as they have drawn them with the ld. stamp. The hon. Member argued that it would not cost very much, as the amount lost by the reduction would be met by the enormous increase in the number of cheques used, and, therefore, we should get on the penny practically the same revenue as we now get on the twopence. There are not in our experience any facts to justify such an optimistic anticipation. There is not the shadow of doubt that the revenue would suffer by the reduction of duty in proportion to the amount by which the duty would be reduced. The yield last year of cheques was just under £3,000,000. I estimated in my Budget this year that the yield this year would be£3,050,000. If I accepted this Amendment it would not operate in the whole year, but I have no doubt that in a full year I would have to sacrifice—and I am making some allowance for a possible increase in the number of cheques—revenues of not less than£1,250,000 and possibly£1,500,000. For those reasons I regret that I cannot accept the Amendment.

Lieut.-Commander BURNEY

I do not think that I quite follow the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because the hon. Member who brought this matter forward put it on the basis that it would increase the number of cheques in use, and reduce the amount of money which people would keep in their own houses, and that, as a result of this, we should get an increase in the amount of money available for lending. Following that point to its natural conclusion, the first thing that would happen would be that we should get increased currency in circulation. That would put up the velocity of the circulation by increasing the purchasing power of persons, due to the disbursement of that money on enterprises. The further result of that would be that the price level of this country would be somewhat put up because of the increased velocity of circulation. But by putting up the price level in this country we shall damage, in a sense, our exchange with New York.

That would further mean that we should have to pay more sterling to New York for dollars owing to the fact that the price level of the country had been raised relatively to New York, and consequently our payments of debt to America would be increased upon a sterling basis. So far as the burden of this extra amount of sterling to be gathered in taxes is concerned, the result would be immaterial, as the revenue upon a given basis of taxation would increase, due to the increase of price level in the country; and if I follow the Mover of this Amendment in his remarks, the point which he is endeavouring to make is not that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would actually lose on this tax. Of course, he would lose money on this tax if he removes the duty altogether, but the argument is that by removing the duty altogether he would benefit trade to a still greater extent and thereby increase the revenue which he would obtain from this better basis of taxation. It is for that reason that I think that it would be worth while to make the experiment, because I do not think that the country would lose. I think it probable that it would make a profit of £6,000,000 or more, and it is because I think that that is a speculation which the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be fully entitled to make that I support the Amendment.


I rise to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to one matter. I cannot help thinking that, if there were any alteration made, it would affect the fiduciary issue more than any of the other issues. In regard to the Bank of England the fiduciary issue is now about £246,000,000, which is very near the maximum figure fixed by the Cunliffe Committee. If you had more money in the banks I think that you would not be so near the limit which was fixed by the Cunliffe Committee. I only put that technical point before the Committee in this way, that it might possibly assist in bringing more depositors to the bank, and in that way with a cheaper cheque and more deposits we should not be so near the limit of the fiduciary issue which was suggested by the Cunliffe Committee.


I think that I have indirectly answered that question by saying that I do not agree that the reduction of the duty would increase the amount in the bank in the manner described.


Does the right hon. Gentleman lay it down that it is good for a country, or bad for a country, to have a less amount of currency notes or a greater amount of currency notes?


I am not going to be involved in a discussion on that matter on this Amendment.


After the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.



Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 101; Noes, 298.

Division No. 134.] AYES. [6.7 p.m.
Alstead, R. Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North) Pease, William Edwin
Apsley, Lord Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Penny, Frederick George
Atholl Duchess of Gavan-Duffy, Thomas Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Greene, W. P. Crawford Plelou, D. P.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Pliditch, Sir Philip
Beckett, Sir Gervase Gretton, Colonel John Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E. Pringle, W. M. R.
Berry, Sir George Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Raine, W.
Blades, Sir George Rowland Harland, A. Rankin, James S.
Blundell, F. N. Harney, E. A. Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel
Bourne, Robert Croft Hartington, Marquess of Remnant, Sir James
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart Hayday, Arthur Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon, Charles W. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Richardson, Lt.-Col, Sir P.(Chertsey)
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Ropner, Major L.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Herbert, Capt. Sidney (Scarborough) Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Buckingham, Sir H. Hoffman, P. C. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Sandeman, A. Stewart
Bullock, Captain M. Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Burman, J. B. Hood, Sir Joseph Savery, S. S
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie Shepperson, E. W.
Butt, Sir Alfred Howard, Hn. D. (Cumberland, North) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)
Caine, Gordon Hall Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, South)
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Huntingfield, Lord Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Stanley, Lord
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt.R. (Prtsmth.S.) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Steel, Samuel Strang
Cecil. Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.) Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Chilcott, Sir Warden Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Sutcliffe, T.
Clarry, Reginald George Kindersley, Major G. M. Thornton, Maxwell R.
Clayton, G. C. King. Captain Henry Douglas Titchfield. Major the Marquess of
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Lamb, J. Q. Turner, Ben
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Lane-Fox, George R. Turton, Edmund Russborough
Cope, Major William Lumley, L. R. Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Waddington, R.
Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert MacDonald, R. Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Dalkeith, Earl of Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Warrender, Sir Victor
Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. McNeill, Rt. Hon. Ronald John Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Macpherson. Rt. Hon. James I. Weston, John Wakefield
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Maltland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Dawson, Sir Philip Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kincardine, E.) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Dixey, A. C. Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Wise, Sir Fredric
Dunnico, H. Meller, R. J. Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L.
Eden, Captain Anthony Mills, J. E. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Eiveden, Viscount Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Wragg, Herbert
Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Morden, Col. W. Grant Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)
Falls, Major Sir Bertram Godfray Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Ferguson, H. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Mr. Hannon and Mr. Samuel
FitzRoy, Capt. Rt. Hon. Edward A. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Roberts.
Forestler-Walker, L. Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
Ackroyd, T. R. Bondfield, Margaret Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Adamson, Rt. Hon, William Bonwick, A. Compton, Joseph
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Conway, Sir W. Martin
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Bromfield, William Cove, W. G.
Allen, R. Wilberforce (Leicester, S.) Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)
Ammon, Charles George Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Crittall, V. G.
Aske, Sir Robert William Buchanan, G. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Attlee, Major Clement R. Buckle, J. Darbishire, C. W.
Ayles, W. H. Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Davies, David (Montgomery)
Baker, Walter Chapple, Dr. William A. Davies, Ellis (Denbigh, Denbigh)
Banton, G. Charleton, H. C. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Barclay, R. Noton Church, Major A. G. Dickle, Captain J. P.
Barnes, A. Clarke, A. Dickson, T.
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Climle, R. Dodds, S. R.
Batey, Joseph Cluse, W. S. Duckworth, John
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Dukes, C.
Duncan, C. Lawson, John James Romeril, H. G.
Dunn, J. Freeman Leach, W. Rose, Frank H.
Edwards, John H. (Accrington) Lee, F. Royle, C.
Egan, W. H. Lessing, E. Scurr, John
England, Colonel A. Linfield, F. C. Seely, H. M. (Norfolk, Eastern)
Falconer, J. Livingstone, A. M. Sexton, James
Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H. Loverseed, J. F. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Foot, Isaac Lowth, T. Sherwood, George Henry
Franklin, L. B. Lunn, William Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) McCrae, Sir George Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Gates, Percy McEntee, V. L. Simon, E. D. (Manchester, Withington)
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Macfadyen, E. Simpson, J. Hope
Gillett, George M. Mackinder, W. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Gosling, Harry Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome) Mansel, Sir Courtenay Smith, W. R (Norwich)
Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) March, S. Snell, Harry
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Marks, Sir George Croydon Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Marley, James Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton) Spence, R.
Groves, T. Maxton, James Spero, Dr. G. E.
Grundy, T. W. Middleton, G. Spoor, B. G.
Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) Millar, J. D. Stamford, T. W.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Mond, H. Stephen, Campbell
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Montague, Frederick Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Hardie, George D. Morel, E. D. Sturrock, J. Leng
Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury) Morris, R. H. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Hastings, Sir Patrick Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
Hastings, Somerville (Reading) Morse, W. E. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Haycock, A. W. Mosley, Oswald Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay)
Healy, Cahir Moulton, Major Fletcher Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro. W.)
Hemmerde, E. G Muir, John W. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Pialstow)
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Muir, Ramsay (Rochdale) Thurtle, E.
Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Murray, Robert Tout, W. J.
Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.) Murrell, Frank Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Hillary, A. E. Naylor, T. E. Viant, S. P.
Hindle, F. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Vivian, H.
Hirst, G. H. Nichol, Robert Wallhead, Richard C.
Hobhouse, A. L. Nixon, H. Watson, W. M. (Duntermline)
Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton) Owen, Major G. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Hudson, J. H. Paling, W. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Isaacs, G. A. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Westwood, J.
Jackson, R. F. (Ioswich) Perry, S. F. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Whiteley, W.
Jewson, Dorothea Phillipps, Vivian Wignall, James
John, William (Rhondda, West) Pilkington, R. R. Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Ponsonby, Arthur Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Potts, John S. Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B. (Kennington)
Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Purcell, A. A. Williams, Maj. A.S. (Kent, Sevenoaks)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Raffety, F. W. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Ramage, Captain Cecl Beresford Willison, H.
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.) Raynes, W. R. Wilson, C. H (Shefield, Attercliffe)
Kay, Sir R. Newbald Rea, W. Russell Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Keens, T. Rees, Sir Beddoe Windsor, Walter
Kennedy, T. Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple) Wintringham, Margaret
Kenyon, Barnet Richards, R. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Lansbury, George Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wright, W.
Laverack, F. J. Ritson, J. Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)
Law, A. Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Lawernce, Susan (East Ham, North) Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Frederick Hall and Mr. Warne.
Division No. 135.] AYES. [7.10 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. England, Colonel A. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Apsley, Lord Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Falle, Major Sir Bertam Godtray, Penny, Frederick George
Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Ferguson, H. Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Barclay, R. Noton Franklin, L. B. Peering, William George
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Pielou, D. P.
Becker, Harry Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Raine, W.
Beckett, Sir Gervase Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Berry, Sir George Harland, A. Remnant, Sir James
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sr P. (Chertsey)
Blades, Sir George Rowland Hartington, Marquess of Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)
Bourne, Robert Croft Harvey, C.M.B. (Aberd'n & Kincardne) Sandeman, A. Stewart
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Savery, S. S.
Buckingham, Sir H. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange)
Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hillary, A. E. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Bullock, Captain M. Hood, Sir Joseph Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Burman, J. B. Howard, Hn. D. (Cumberland, Northn.) Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)
Butt, Sir Alfred Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Spender-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H.
Caine, Gordon Hall Huntingfield, Lord Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Sutcliffe, T.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt.R.(Prtsmth. S.) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Turton, Edmund Russborough
Chilcott, Sir Warden Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Waddington, R.
Clarry, Reginald George Kedward, R. M. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Lumley, L. R. Warrender, Sir Victor
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry MacDonald, R. Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Weston, John Wakefield
Cunliffe, Joseph Herbert Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K. Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Curzon, Captain Viscount Meller, R. J. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Wragg, Herbert
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester) Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward
Dawson, Sir Philip Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Yelburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Dixey, A. C. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Duckworth. John Morden, Colonel Walter Grant TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Dunn, J. Freeman Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph Mr. A. M. Samuel and Commander
Elveden, Viscount Nicholson, O. (Westminister) Burney.
Ackroyd, T. R. Climie, R. Gosling, Harry
Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Cluse, W. S. Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Cobb, Sir Cyril Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)
Alden, Percy Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Greene, W. P. Crawford
Alexander. A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)
Allen, R. Wilberforce (Leicester, S.) Collins, Patrick (Walsall) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Alstead, R. Compton, Joseph Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Ammon, Charles George Comyns-Carr, A. S. Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Aske, Sir Robert William Cope, Major William Groves, T.
Atholl, Duchess of Cove, W. G. Grundy, T. W.
Attlee, Major Clement R. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)
Ayles, W. H. Crittall, V. G. Gulnness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.
Baker, Walter Dalkeith, Earl of Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Banton, G. Darbishire, C. W. Harbord, Arthur
Barnes, A. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hardie, George D.
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Davies, David (Montgomery) Harney, E. A.
Batey, Joseph Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury)
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Hastings, Sir Patrick
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Deans, Richard Storry Hastings, Somerville (Reading)
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Dickie, Captain J. P. Haycock, A. W.
Blundell, F. N. Dickson, T. Hayday, Arthur
Bondfield, Margaret Dodds, S. R. Hemmerde, E. G.
Bonwick, A. Dukes, C. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Duncan, C. Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South)
Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Dunnico, H. Henderson, T. (Glasgow)
Briant, Frank Eden, Captain Anthony Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.)
Broad, F. A. Edmondson, Major A. J. Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Bromfield, William Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern) Hindle, F.
Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby) Egan, W. H. Hirst, G. H.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Hobhouse, A. L.
Buchanan, G. Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston)
Buckle, J. Falconer, J. Hoffman, P. C.
Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Butler, Sir Geoffrey FitzRoy, Capt. Rt. Hon. Edward A. Hohler, Sir Gerald Fitzroy
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H. Hope, rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Foot, Isaac Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Hudson, J. H.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.) Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North) Hughes Collingwood
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Gates, Percy Isaacs, G. A.
Chapman, Sir S. Gavan-Duffy, Thomas Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich)
Chapple, Dr. William A. George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Charleton, H. C. Gibbins, Joseph Jewson, Dorothea
Clarke, A. Gilbert, James Daniel John, William (Rhondda, West)
Clayton, G. C. Gillett, George M. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Murrell, Frank Stanley, Lord
Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Naylor, T. E. Starmer, Sir Charles
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Steel, Samuel Strang
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Nichol, Robert Stephen, Campbell
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford,E.) Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Jowitt, W. A. (The Hartlepools) Nixon, H. Sunlight, J.
Kay, Sir R. Newbald O'Grady, Captain James Tattersall, J. L.
Keens, T. Owen, Major G. Terrington, Lady
Kennedy, T. Paling, W. Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)
Kenyon, Barnet Palmer, E. T. Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)
King, Capt. Henry Douglas Pattinson, S. (Horncastle) Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay)
Lansbury, George Perry, S. F. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Laverack, F. J. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.)
Law, A. Philipson, Mabel Thomson, Sir W.Mitchell-(Croydon,S.)
Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North) Phillipps, Vivian Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Lawson, John James Pilkington, R. R. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Leach, W. Potts, John S. Thornton, Maxwell R.
Lee, F. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Thurtle, E.
Lessing, E. Purcell, A. A. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of.
Lindley, F. W. Raffety, F. W. Tout, W. J.
Linfield, F. C. Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Livingstone, A. M. Raynes, W. R. Turner, Ben
Loverseed, J. F. Rea, W. Russell Vaughan-Morgan, Col K. P.
Lowth, T. Rees, Sir Beddoe Viant, S. P.
Lunn, William Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple) Vivian, H.
McCrae, Sir George Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Wallhead, Richard C.
McEntee, V. L. Richards, R. Ward, Col. J. (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Macfadyen, E. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Warne, G. H.
Mackinder, W. Ritson, J. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Robertson, T. A. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford) Wells, S. R.
Maltland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs, Stretford) Westwood, J.
Makins, Brigadier-General E. Romeril, H. G. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Mansel, Sir Courtenay Ropner, Major L. Whiteley, W.
March, S. Rose, Frank H. Wignall, James
Marks, Sir George Croydon Roundell, Colonel R. F. Williams, A. (York, W. R., Sowerby)
Marley, James Royle, C. Williams, David (Swansea, E.)
Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, E.) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton) Scrymgeour, E. Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B. (Kennington)
Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. Scurr, John Williams, Maj. A.S.(Kent,Sevenoaks)
Maxton, James Seely, H. M. (Norfolk, Eastern) Willison, H.
Middleton, G. Sexton, James Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Millar, J. D. Shepperson, E. W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Mills, J. E. Sherwood, George Henry Windsor, Walter
Mitchell,R. M.(Perth & Kinross, Perth) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Mond, H. Simon, E. D. (Manchester, Withington) Wintringham, Margaret
Montague, Frederick Simpson, J. Hope Wise, Sir Fredric
Morel, E. D. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Wood, Major Rt Hon. Edward F. L.
Morris, R. H. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Snell, Harry Woodwark, Lieut.-Colonel G. G.
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Wright, W.
Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Spence, R. Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Patrick)
Morse, W. E. Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, South)
Mosley, Oswald Spero, Dr. G. E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Moulton, Major Fletcher Spoor, B. G. Mr. Frederick Hall and Mr. Allen
Muir, John W. Stamford, T. W. Parkinson.
Murray, Robert