HC Deb 08 July 1924 vol 175 cc2123-33

Where it is proved to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise that any beer brewed in Great Britain or Northern Ireland on or after the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, is brewed solely from malt and hops of Home Production there shall be allowed in respect of such beer the following rebate from the excise duty payable in respect thereof, that is to say:— In the case of beer brewed by a brewer of beer for sale, for every thirty-six galloons of beer of whatever original gravity charged with duty and delivered from a brewery a rebate of ten shillings; In the case of beer brewed by any brewer other than a brewer for sale, for every thirty-six gallons of worts of a specific gravity of one thousand and fifty-five degrees charged with duty a rebate of twelve shillings and sixpence, and so on in proportion for any difference in quantity.—[Mr. Shepperson.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. SHEPPERSON

I beg to move "That the Clause be read a Second time."

I wish to assure hon. Members, not only those above the Gangway but those below the Gangway opposite, who support the Government, that I do not move this Clause for any purpose of obstruction. Nor do I move it with any idea of criticising the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I move it simply from a sense of duty to my constituents, and I should have moved it whatever Government was in power. It may be said that this Clause is moved for the purpose of achieving popularity by reducing taxation, but I do not move it to gain popularity. I recognise that while reduced taxation should be very popular in one respect it would be unpopular with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has to balance the national accounts. I wish to assure the right hon. Gentleman that this proposal will cost the country but little, if anything at all. The subject of the Clause is beer. The question is often asked, "What is beer" I have always made it a rule not to speak in this House on a subject which I do not understand, and before I rose to speak on this subject. I took steps to understand something about beer. I took steps to find out the answer to the question "What is beer"?—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"]—not in the place supposed by hon. Members, but in the dictionary. I consulted Webster's Dictionary and Webster informs me that beer is a fermented liquor made from any malted grain but commonly from barley malt with hops. I looked up the Dictionary of Dr. Murray, from which I learn that beer is an alcoholic liquor obtained from the fermentation of malt flavoured with hops. It is well within the knowledge of the Committee that the beer we drink does not fulfil these definitions and the object of my Clause is not to gain popularity by the reduction of taxation, but is to cause the beer produced in the country to fulfil those definitions. Usually a proposal made by me would have the support of hon. Members on this side of the Committee and the opposition of hon. Members on the other side, particularly if it had anything to do with the industry of which we are supposed to be supporters.

In this case, that is not so, because this new Clause is not agreed to by hon. Members on this side who have an interest in brewing. I asked them, before introducing the new Clause, and they assured me that it is not practicable, because the British public's palate would not accept a pure beer to-day. I wanted to be assured whether that statement was or was not correct, and so I went to inquire of the British public its opinion. In doing so, I did not ask the opinion of the man who drinks a bottle of Bass for his lunch, but of the real connoisseur—[HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"]—a man whose only alcoholic drink had been beer, a man whose palate had not been ruined by wines and spirits. I put it to that man: "What do you think of the beer you drank in your youth? "He was very ready with his reply. He said: "In the old days, beer was beer." I came to the conclusion, therefore, that the taste of the public had not altered and that the reason why the brewing industry informed me that the British public would not consume a pure beer to-day was because it is easier and cheaper for them to manufacture beer that is not pure, but that contains the many substitutes with which they manufacture it to-day.

One of my objects in introducing this Clause is to assure that this beverage shall be what it ought to be, that is, beer, but that is not my main object. There is another condition attached to it, and that is that there shall be no reduction of Excise duty unless it is shown, not only that the beer is brewed from malt and hops, but that the malt and hops are of home production. It is not for the sake of the consumers of the beer or of the brewer that I move this Clause, but in the interests of British agriculture, which should be growing the hops and barley.

The Committee know that the agricultural industry of the country is quite capable of growing all the barley necessary for the malt, and all the hops necessary to manufacture the beer for the brewing industry. The Committee also know at the present time that though the brewers do use malt and hops they do not use them wholly. If the beer consumed in this country were brewed from barley and hops grown in this country, it would mean an increase of national wealth owing to the considerable increase of the arable land under cultivation. The Minister of Agriculture and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry both sit as representatives of Eastern counties. They know the distressed condition of agriculture. If this Clause were adopted it would help the growth and sale of barley in this country, and that would, to a certain extent, find a partial remedy at all events for the distressed condition of agriculture in the Eastern counties. Any proposed Clause may be opposed by Members who are interested in the bewing industry. I myself would be a supporter of a Pure Beer Bill, but such a Bill is not before the Committee now. I cannot use that help, so I am doing the next best thing by trying to use a certain amount of peaceful persuasion. I recognise, knowing the brewers, but also knowing human nature, that the method of peaceful persuasion is the same as financial persuasion. This Clause which I am introducing would bring that financial persuasion to bear upon the brewer because there would be a reduction of excise if they showed to the satisfaction of the authorities that they were brewing their beer from malt and hops grown in this country. I am confident if this proposed Clause were accepted that it would not be long before the British palate was able to again consume pure beer. It has been considerably difficult for me to move this new Clause, but I want to appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and to say that this Clause was drawn up so as not to invite undue criticism, but to be as helpful as I could be to the Government and the interests of the constituency I represent.

Mr. SEXTON

On a point of Order. I should like to ask if the hon. Member, in expressing his opinion, is influenced in any way by recent personal experience [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw! Withdraw!"]

The DEPUTY - CHAIRMAN (Mr. Entwistle)

If the hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton) means any personal imputation, he had better withdraw it.

Mr. JONES

The hon. Member for St. Helens can drink as much as anybody else, if somebody else will pay for it. [Interruption.]

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I think hon. Members had better allow the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Shepperson) to proceed.

Mr. SHEPPERSON

I was not aware of the point of Order which has been raised. It has been said on this side that the Minister of Labour has been unable to do a certain conjuring trick—is to produce a rabbit out of a hat. I want to inform the Committee that he is not the only Minister who would like to do a conjuring trick in that way. The Minister of Agriculture is equally anxious to do that trick, and the rabbit that he would like to produce is something which would be a definite help to British arable agriculture. I submit that the Clause I am moving is a rabbit that would give help to the Minister of Agriculture. If I were merely a party politician, I should not give this trick away to the Minister of Agriculture, but. I put agriculture before party politics, and ask the Government to accept the proposals that I have put in this new Clause. I appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to assent to the principle of my proposal, and I assure him that if he will assent to it he will get the thanks of his colleague the Minister of Agriculture and of all the consumers of beer in this country. He will also get the grateful thanks of the agriculturists of this country, and for these reasons I ask for the acceptance of this new Clause.

Mr. J. JONES

I can understand the laughter, because one recalls the line And the loud laugh that spoke the vacant mind. But, so far as I am concerned, I am not here to apologise for the fact that I drink beer. Others would be better if they did the same. I believe that the hon. Member who has moved this Clause honestly believes that he is doing the right thing. Therefore I am not going to charge him with being insincere, or with being "full of his subject." But, after all, we have such a thing as a Food Adulteration Act, and whether we like it or not—some people, of course, do not, and they look it—[An HON. MEMBER: "Some people do, and they look it!"]. The less they like it, the more miserable they seem to become. But, as far as some of us are concerned, why should we not have pure beer? To-day we have poor beer, and the poorer we are the poorer is our beer. We get fed up with chemicals—and full of them, sometimes. Some of you would never get full up of anything but gas. I would rather get decently drunk on decent beer than preach Puritanism on cold water.

Mr. BECKER

On a point of Order. Is it in Order for an hon. Member of this House to say he would be "decently drunk"? Is it possible?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I do not think that that is a point of Order; but I would draw the hon. Member's attention to the fact that this Clause deals with a remission of the duty on beer brewed with home-grown hops. We are not really discussing the question of pure beer.

Mr. JONES

Being a home-grown hop-picker myself, I want to see some preference given in this instance. Why not? After all, we believe we are the best people in the world. I have heard hon. Members say we are the greatest people in the world, and talk about the splendid things we have done. We grow hops. We grow them in Kent. The best hops in the world are grown on the other side of the river opposite where I live. The only things that grow where I live are empty condensed milk cans. But, after all, if the best is the best, why not support the best?

Apart altogether from any question whether you drink or whether you do not, the great mass of the workers of this country do drink beer, and you will have an awful job on if you try to stop them, because, in spite of all your attempts to introduce Prohibition by instalments, it will not come off. What is being asked for is pure food, because, after all, in the eyes of the great mass of the workers of Great Britain—I am excluding, of course, some parts where the wild men come from—[HON. MEMBERS: "Which ones?"] I am one of them, though on certain issues we are at variance. The point, however, is this: Here is an attempt being made to reduce the tax upon a home-grown product, against those who try to adulterate one of the things that people use, and I, therefore, think that the Clause which the hon. Member has moved has some justification. It may not be carried, but, as far as I am personally concerned, I want to say, speaking for the class to which I belong—the ordinary workers of the country—that we are not going to be always led by the nose by those who tell us that cold water is the only decent thing to drink. I know some Members of our party do not believe in beer. They prefer champagne. I am going to stand up for the man who drinks a glass of beer against the people who are always canting about their morality.

Mr. SNOWDEN

The hon. Member who moved the Clause is certainly entitled to the courtesy of a few words of reply. He

said he was moving it in the interests of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He has strange ideas of serving the interests of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the Clause, if it were adopted, would involve a loss of revenue of £10,000,000 a year. The hon. Member talked a good deal about pure beer and that, I understand, is one of the purposes which induced him to submit the Clause. I think the real object he has in view is expressed in the latter part of his speech—that he has put it forward for the benefit or protection of certain branches of British agriculture, in other words, for the protection of the British grower of hops. But he falls short of fully realising his object, because he is confining this to the production of beer. A very considerable quantity of malt is used in the production of spirits, and under the Clause that would receive no benefit. However, my main objection to that is that it involves a reduction in the revenue. It is no part of my duty, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, to enter upon the highly debateable question of pure or impure beer.

Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 136; Noes, 253.

Division No. 137.] AYES. [11.41 p.m.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Dalkeith, Earl of Howard Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hughes, Collingwood
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset. Yeovil) Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.
Barnston, Major Sir Harry Dawson, Sir Philip Jackson, Lieut.- Colonel Hon. F. S.
Becker, Harry Deans, Richard Storry Kindersley, Major G. M.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Dixey, A. C. King, Captain Henry Douglas
Betterton, Henry B. Doyle, Sir N. Grattan Lamb, J. Q.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Eden, Captain Anthony Lane-Fox, George R.
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Edmondson, Major A. J. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Blades, Sir George Rowland Elvedon, Viscount Lord, Walter Greaves
Blundell, F. N. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Lumley, L. R.
Bourne, Robert Croft Eyres-Monseil, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm
Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart Falle. Major Sir Bertram Godfray Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Ferguson, H. Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. FitzRoy, Capt. Rt. Hon. Edward A. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Forestier-Walker, L. Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden)
Briscoe, Captain Richard George Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Bullock, Captain M. Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham Nall, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Joseph
Burman, J. B. Greene, W. P. Crawford Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Burney, Lieut.-Com. Charles D. Greenwood, William (Stockport) Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Butler, Sir Geoffrey Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Butt, Sir Alfred Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E. Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth. S.) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Pease. William Edwin
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Pennefather, Sir John
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Penny, Frederick George
Chilcott, Sir Warden Harland, A. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Clarry, Reginald George Harmsworth, Hon. E C. (Kent) Perkins, Colonel E. K.
Clayton, G. C. Harvey, C.M.B. (Aberd'n & Kincardne) Perring, William George
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Philipson, Mabel
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Pielou, D. P.
Cope, Major William Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L. Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) Raine, W.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.) Rankin, James S.
Curzon, Captain Viscount Howard, Hn. D. (Cumberland, Northrn.) Remer, J. R.
Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) Watson, Sir F. (Pedsey and Otley)
Richardson, Lt.-Col, Sir P. (Chertsey) Spencer-Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Wilson, Sir Charles H. (Leeds, Central)
Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford) Stanley, Lord Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Ropner, Major L. Steel, Samuel Strang Wise, Sir Fredric
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Wood, Major Rt. Hon. Edward F. L.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Sutcliffe, T. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Croydon, S.) Wragg, Herbert
Sandeman, A. Stewart Titchfield. Major the Marquess of Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Savery, S. S. Turton, Edmund Russborough
Sheffield, Sir Berkeley Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Shepperson, E. W. Waddington, R. Lieutenant-Colonel Wheler and
Smith-Carington, Neville W. Ward, Lt.-Col. A.L.(Kingston-on-Hull) Lord Huntingfield
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Warrender, Sir Victor
NOES.
Ackroyd, T. R. Gosling, Harry Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome) Mansel, Sir Courtenay
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) March, S.
Agg-Gardner, Rt. Hon. Sir James T. Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Marley, James
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Ammon, Charles George Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Martin, F. (Aberdeen & Kinc'dine, E.)
Aske, Sir Robert William Groves, T. Martin, W. H. (Dumbarton)
Attlee, Major Clement R. Grundy, T. W. Mason, Lieut.-Col. Glyn K.
Ayles, W. H. Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth) Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.
Baker, Walter Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) Maxton, James
Banton, G. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Middleton, G.
Barclay, R. Noton Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Millar, J. D.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Harbord, Arthur Mills, J. E.
Barnes, A. Hardie, George D. Mitchell R. M. (Perth & Kinross, Perth)
Batey, Joseph Harris, Percy A. Mond, H.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Montague, Frederick
Berkeley, Captain Reginald Harvey, T. E. (Dewsbury) Morris, R. H.
Birkett, W. N. Hastings, Sir Patrick Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)
Bonwick, Alfred J. Haycock, A. W. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Briant, Frank Hayday, Arthur Morse, W. E.
Broad, F. A. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Moulton, Major Fletcher
Bromfield, William Henderson, A. (Cardiff, South) Muir, Ramsay (Rochdate)
Brown, A. E. (Warwick, Rugby) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Murray, Robert
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.) Murrell, Frank
Buchanan, G. Hillary, A. E. Naylor, T. E.
Buckingham, Sir H. Hindle, F. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Buckle, J. Hirst, G. H. Nixon, H.
Chapman, Sir S. Hobhouse, A. L. Oliver, P. M. (Manchester, Blackley)
Chapple, Dr. William A. Hodges, Frank Owen, Major G.
Charleton, H. C. Hoffman, P. C. Paling, W.
Clarke, A. Hore-Belisha, Major Leslie Palmer, E. T.
Climie, R. Howard, Hon. G. (Bedford, Luton) Pattinson, S. (Horncastle)
Cluse, W. S. Hudson, J. H. Perry, S. F.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Isaacs, G. A. Pathick-Lawrence, F. W.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich) Phillipps, Vivian
Collins, Patrick (Walsall) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Potts, John S.
Compton, Joseph Jenkins, W. A. (Brecon and Radnor) Purcell, A. A.
Comyns-Carr, A. S. Jewson, Dorothea Raffety, F. W.
Costello, L. W. J. John, William (Rhondda, West) Ramage, Captain Cecil Beresford
Cove, W. G. Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) Rathbone, Hugh R.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Raynes, W. R.
Crittall, V. G, Jones, C. Sydney (Liverpool, W. Derby) Rea, W. Russell
Darbishire, C. W. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Rees, Sir Beddoe
Davies, David (Montgomery) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Richards, R.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. (Bradford, E.) Ritson, J.
Dickie, Captain J. P. Jowitt, W. A,(The Hartlepools) Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Dickson, T. Kay, Sir R. Newbald Robertson, T. A.
Dodds, S. R. Kedward, R. M. Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chemisford)
Duckworth, John Keens, T. Robinson, Sir T. (lancs., Stretford)
Dukes, C. Kennedy, T. Romeril, H. G.
Duncan, Charles Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Roase, Frank H.
Dunnico, H. Kirkwood, D. Roundell, Colonel R. F.
Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern) Lansbury, George Royle, C.
Egan, W. H. Laverack, F.J. Scurr, John
Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) Law, A. Seely, H. M. (Norfolk, Eastern)
England, Colonel A. Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North) Sexton, James
Falconer, J. Lawson, John James Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Fletcher, Lieut.-Com. R. T. H. Leach, W. Sherwood, George Henry
Foot, Isaac Lee, F. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Linfield, F. C. Simon, E. D. (Manchester, Withington)
Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North) Livingstone, A. M. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Gates, Percy Loverseed, J. F. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Calthness)
Gavan-Duffy, Thomas Lunn, William Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
George, Major G. L. (Pembroke) McCrae, Sir George Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Gibbins, Joseph McEntee, V. L. Snell, Harry
Gillett, George M. Macfadyen, E. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Gorman, William Mackinder, W. Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.
Spence, R. Thornton, Maxwell R. Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, South) Thurtle, E. Williams, Maj. A. S. (Kent, Sevenoaks)
Spero, Dr. G. E. Toole, J. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Spoor, B. G. Tout, W. J. Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B. (Kennington)
Stamford, T. W. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P. Willison, H.
Starmer, Sir Charles Turner, Ben Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Stephen, Campbell Viant, S. P. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Vivian, H. Windsor, Walter
Stranger, Innes Harold Wallhead, Richard C. Wintringham, Margaret
Sturrock, J. Leng Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Sunlight, J. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Woodwark, Lieut.-Colonel G. G.
Tattersall, J. L. Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney Wright, W.
Terrington, Lady Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C. Young, Andrew (Glasgow, Partick)
Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey) Whiteley, W.
Thompson, Piers G. (Torquay) Williams, David (Swansea, E.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Thomson, Trevelyan (Middlesbro, W.) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Warne.
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)