§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONI beg to move to leave out the Clause.
I want to respond to what the right hon. Gentleman has said as to getting on with the Bill.
§ Mr. HOPEDid you, Sir, on Clause 4, not put the words down to a certain point, so as to save the next Amendment on the Paper?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe Amendment having been accepted, the rest of the words go out automatically.
§ Mr. LOCKER-LAMPSONUnder this Clause the husband has to give notice of his change of address. I understand these payments are not made into Court, 1720 but to the person mentioned in the Order at that person's particular address. My point is that if the husband has to give notice of change of address, it is also incumbent on the person to whom the payments are to be made to give notice of change of address. It will be very hard on the husband if he is penalised through not knowing where his wife lives. I do not know how the Amendment is going to be framed at the moment, but I shall be very glad if the right hon. Gentleman can give us an assurance that this point will be considered in another place, and, if possible, an Amendment will be framed to meet it.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODI do not think that in actual practice there would be much fear of the woman not notifying her change of address. The real danger is that the person who has to pay the money will not notify change of address. I will, however, consider between now and the time when the Bill reaches another place whether it is necessary to add certain words to the second line of the Clause that would make it equally necessary for the recipient to notify her change of address.
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANAs the Clause stands, a man is liable to a fine of £2 if he does not give notice of his change of address to the person to whom he has to make the payment, although he may not have ceased to make the payment. I should have thought that the intention was that the man should be fined if he has failed to notify and has also ceased to pay. The man may be away, and may not know what his address may be in a few days' time. I should have thought that it would be quite sufficient to make him liable to a fine if he had not given notice of his change of address, and had also ceased to make the payments.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODThe words are
without reasonable excuse shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £2.It is not conceivable that the fine would be imposed where a man who had not notified his change of address was still continuing to make his payments.
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANIt is not a question of excuse. The fact that he had made the payments would not be any excuse if he had failed to notify his change of 1721 address. He has to excuse himself for not having given his address. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will consider the insertion of the words "and is in arrear with his payments."
§ Colonel WEDGWOODYes.
Captain REESWhen the right hon. Gentleman considers the alteration that he proposes to make, will he consider the advisability of instructing the clerks to the magistrates to notify to the person against whom the order is made the fact that if he fails to notify his change change of address he is incurring the risk of penalty? Having had some experience as a magistrate in these matters I suggest that that intimation should be given in the order served upon the man, because the man as a rule lives in a class who take very little interest in Acts of Parliament, and he may be ignorant of this provision.
Mr. STORRY-DEANSThere is an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) which I think would meet this particular point. The Clause provides that the change of address must be notified to the person to whom the payments are to be made. The Amendment of my hon. Friend provides for notification being given to that person or to the Court. That is to say, if the husband who has to make these payments instead of notifying the person to whom the payment has to be made intimates to the Court, which in practice means the magisrates' clerk, his change of address, that would be sufficient, because it indicates an intention not to avoid his liability and not to conceal himself from the person to whom he has to make the payment.
§ Mr. CASSELSI hope the Chancellor of the Duchy will accept the suggestion that has just been made. Where orders are made for payment of money by husbands to separated wives the money, as a rule, in practice, is paid into Court, and the wives have the pleasure of going to the Court every few days in order to collect the money. When a change of address is made, if notice is given to the Court, that should be sufficient. Very often husbands in that condition are not concerned to know where their wives are. The man may not have the address of the wife to whom he is required to notify his change of address.
§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONIn view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. STORRY-DEANSOn behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood), I beg to move, in page 2, line 33, after the word "to," to insert the words "the Court or to."
§ Mr. CASSELSI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODThe right hon. Member for Central Sheffield (Mr. Hope) accused me earlier of being an anarchist.
§ Mr. HOPEI am afraid that I was not clear enough. What I said was that there was on the right hon. Gentleman's part an oboriginal, atavistic outburst of individualism.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODI cannot recollect the exact formula. At any rate, I will read the official reply to this Amendment:
This Amendment should be opposed. It is not the function of the Court to keep a list of defendants with their addresses. When the Court has made an order, the payments are made to the person named in the order and not to the Court. The Court is functus officio"—which means out of a job—until a complaint is made that the order is not being complied with. Notice of change of address should, therefore, be sent to the person to whom the payment should be made, as proposed in the Clause. This person will frequently be the collecting officer of the Court. Such person is distinct from the Court.The lawyers in this Assembly will appreciate the exact point.
§ Mr. CASSELSHas the right hon. Gentleman any information in his possession as to the percentage of cases in which maintenance money is, in fact, paid to the Court?
§ Sir E. HUME-WILLIAMSI wish to emphasise the point put by the hon. and gallant Member for Barnstaple (Captain Rees). If you are going to make this Clause of any value you must give specific notice to the person against whom the order is made that if he changes his address he must intimate the change 1723 either to the Court or to the person to whom the payment is to be made. Otherwise, he will know nothing about it, and he may find himself fined £2 for having done something of which he had not the remotest idea.
§ Mr. DENNIS HERBERTThere is no reason why the practice in this matter should be altered. I do not think that it would be any great burden on the Court to keep a record of these addresses It would be a most useful thing if they would do so. I do not think that the translation of the words "functus officio"have been correctly given. I do not think that these Courts are ever out of
§ a job. A translation which I think more correct is that they have finished with that job, though I doubt whether they have even finished with that job. They have finished with it for the time being, but it is a job which may be brought up before them again at any time, and it is a most suitable thing that the parties interested should be able to get the address by applying to the Courts. I have no doubt that this Amendment may be accepted in spite of the official objection to it.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Fill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 66; Noes, 137.
1725| Division No. 130.] | AYES. | [3.0 p.m. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Penny, Frederick George |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Perring, William George |
| Barnston, Major Sir Harry | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Philipson, Mabel |
| Beckett, Sir Gervase | Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) | Rees, Capt. J. T. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) | Hope, Rt. Hon. J. F. (Sheffield, C.) | Reid, D. D. (County Down) |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Hughes, Collingwood | Russell, Alexander West- (Tynemouth) |
| Bowater, Sir T. Vansittart | Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. Willian Clive | Iliffe, Sir Edward M. | Sandeman, A. Stewart |
| Bullock, Captain M. | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Burman, J. B. | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Bellst) |
| Butler, Sir Geoffrey | Lane-Fox, George R. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Clayton, G. C. | Locker-Lampson G. (Wood Green) | Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Lord, Walter Greaves. | Sykes, Major-Gen. Sir Frederick H. |
| Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. | Lorimer, H. D. | Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Croydon, S.) |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Lynn. Sir R. J. | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. |
| Cope, Major William | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) | Wells, S. R. |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | McLean, Major A. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Elliot, Walter E. | Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm | Wise, Sir Fredric |
| Eyres-Monseil, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward |
| Gates, Percy | Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) | Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T. |
| Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George Abraham | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | |
| Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Hon. Sir John | Morden, Colonel Walter Grant | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Hugh | Mr. Storry-Deans and Mr. Cassels. |
| NOES. | ||
| Ackroyd. T. R | Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) | Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) |
| Allen, R. Wilberforce (Leicester, S.) | Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) |
| Alstead, R. | Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, North) | Kennedy, T. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Gibbins Joseph | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. |
| Attlee, Major Clement R. | Gilbert, James Daniel | Kenyon, Barnet |
| Ayles, W. H. | Gould, Frederick (Somerset, Frome) | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Baker, Walter | Gavan-Duffy, Thomas | Lansbury, George |
| Banton, G. | Greenall, T. | Law, A. |
| Barnes, A. | Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) | Lawrence, Susan (East Ham, North) |
| Batey, Joseph | Grenfell, D. R. (Giamorgan) | Leach, W. |
| Bondfield, Margaret | Groves, T. | Lee, F. |
| Bonwick, A. | Grundy, T. W. | Loverseed, J. F. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Southwark, N.) | Lowth, T. |
| Broad, F. A. | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | McCrae, Sir George |
| Brunner, Sir J. | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | McEntee, V. L. |
| Buckle, J. | Harney, E. A. | Mackinder, W. |
| Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) | Harris, John (Hackney, North) | March, S. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel | Haycock, A. W. | Marley, James |
| Charleton, H. C. | Hemmerde, E. G. | Middleton, G. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Henderson, T. (Glasgow) | Millar, J. D. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Henderson, W. W. (Middlesex, Enfld.) | Montague, Frederick |
| Costello, L. W. J. | Hillary, A. E. | Morris, R. H. |
| Cove, W. G. | Hindle, F. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Crittall, V. G. | Hirst, G. H. | Morse, W. E. |
| Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) | Hoffman, P. C. | Naylor, T. E. |
| Dodds, S. R. | Hogbin, Henry Cairns | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Dukes, C. | Hogge, James Myles | O'Grady, Captain James |
| Dunnico, H. | Hudson, J. H. | Oliver, George Harold |
| Edwards, G. (Norfolk, Southern) | Jackson, R. F. (Ipswich) | Owen, Major G. |
| Egan, W. H. | Jewson, Dorothea | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) |
| Perry, S. F, | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) | Thornton, Maxwell R. |
| Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Sherwood, George Henry | Thurtle, E. |
| Phillipps, Vivian | Shinwell, Emanuel | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Pilkington, R. R. | Short, Alfred (Wednesburry) | Toole, J. |
| Potts, John S. | Simon, E. D. (Manchester, Withington) | Viant, S. P. |
| Raffety, F. W. | Snell, Harry | Warne, G. H. |
| Raynes, W. R. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Webb, Lieut.-Col. Sir H. (Cardiff, E.) |
| Rea, W. Russell | Spence, R. | Wedgwood, Col. Rt. Hon. Josiah C. |
| Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.) | Whiteley, W. |
| Ritson, J. | Spero, Dr. G. E. | Wignall, James |
| Robertson, J. (Lanark, Bothwell) | Spoor, B. G. | Williams, Lt.-Col. T.S.B. (Kennington) |
| Robertson, T. A, | Stamford, T. W. | Willison, H. |
| Robinson, S. W. (Essex, Chelmsford) | Stephen, Campbell | Windsor, Walter |
| Romeril, H. G. | Sutton, J. E. | Wright, W. |
| Rudkin, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. C. | Terrington, Lady | |
| Sexton, James | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Captain Bowyer and Mr. Mills. |
Bill read the Third time and passed.
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI beg to move, in page 2, line 36, after the word "shall," to insert the words "if such payments are in arrear".
I understood the Chancellor of the Duchy to agree that it would be excessive to impose so much as a fine of £2 on a man who is making payment, merely because he has not given his change of address. The Amendment will make the infliction of such a fine impossible unless the payment is in arrear.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODI am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for having drafted the Amendment.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThere are no further Amendments that I select.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."—[Colonel Wedgwood.]
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANIs it the intention of the Government to take charge of the Bill from this stage onwards? The Government have undertaken to make what, I hope, will be considerable improvements in the Bill, and I trust that they will now also make themselves responsible for it.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODThat is so. The Government will take charge of the Bill, and see it through.
§ Mrs. PHILIPSONI, as a humble Member on this side of the House, am very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman's statement. This is another Bill with several unnecessary Clauses. We have the instance of Clause 4 in this Bill. I shall certainly vote for the Third Reading of the Bill, and I hope that all Members on this side will do so.