ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 28 February 1924)

§ Mr. LEIF JONES
I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman who moved this Motion whether he is in a position to give me an answer to the question I put 831 down for Monday to the Prime Minister in regard to this Committee, and whether he will not consent to postpone this to-night until I can get an answer from the Prime Minister. There is a good deal of difference of opinion as to the powers which an Estimates Committee should possess and as to the composition of the Committee, and, if necessary, I will debate the matter now, but I would much prefer to wait until I have had the Prime Minister's answer.

§ Mr. GRIFFITHS (Treasurer of the Household)
I have been trying to arrange this through the usual channels, and if my right hon. Friend will allow me to get. this Motion to-night, I will convey his request to the Prime Minister.

§ Mr. LEIF JONES
I am sorry I cannot consent to that.

§ The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Mr. Clynes)
My right hon. Friend will recall the answer I made to a supplementary question the other day, when I explained to him that we had not had time to determine the powers in respect of this particular Committee, and I doubt whether any good purpose will be served by holding up this proposal now. Therefore, I hope he will allow it to go through, on the understanding that I will report his wishes to the Prime Minister.

§ Mr. LEIF JONES
I am sorry not to meet the wishes of the Deputy Leader of the House in this matter and to delay the setting up of the Estimates Committee, but it will be within the recollection of many hon. Members that in 1918 a very important Committee on National Expenditure went fully into the question of the Estimates Committee and reported, with a series of recommendations in regard to the powers which that Committee should possess and the composition of the Committee. In effect, that Committee reported that the Estimates Committee could be of very little value unless its recommendations were carried out. I have sent for the Report, which is in the Library, and I hope it will be here before I resume my seat, but the first point I wish to make is that the Estimates Committee ought to have among its members certain members of the Public Accounts Committee. The latter Committee investigates and reports to the House upon 832 the audited accounts, and it is very desirable that some members of the Public Accounts Committee should be on the Estimates Committee, and vice versa, so that those who have gone through the Estimates when they are Estimates should be upon the Committee which investigates the audited accounts. The National Expenditure Committee, before which you, Mr. Speaker, and your predecessor, and many Chancellors of the Exchequer gave evidence, was unanimous in making this recommendation in regard to the composition of the Estimates Committee. Now I find that no notice has been taken of the recommendations of that very influential and important Committee, which got a great deal of evidence and made careful recommendations. I come back after five years to find that nothing has been done in this matter, and I venture to think that if we do not carry out this recommendation the Estimates Committee may really do more harm than good, because the House is under the impression that the Estimates Committee is going fully into these matters, and is, therefore, inclined to leave them to the Committee, but in reality the Estimates Committee has not the power necessary to deal with the accounts.
That brings me to the second main point made by the National Expenditure Committee, which it declared to be essential—and I would call the attention of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who is a member of the Public Accounts Committee, to this point—if the Estimates Committee was to be of any value to the House, that it should have at its service an expert examiner of Estimates, who should be a person entirely independent of the Departments. It was suggested that his work might be done by the Treasury or by the Departments, but the National Expenditure Committee was emphatically of the opinion that, if the Estimates Committee was to be of value, it must have an examiner of Estimates armed with powers somewhat analogous to those of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who is the great officer of this House, independent even of the Government, and who audits the accounts, and reports to the Public Accounts Committee. He is our leader and guide on the Public Accounts Committee, and as the result of his reports the Public Accounts Committee is able really 833 to be of service in regard to the audited accounts. In a similar way, if the Estimates Committee is to be really valuable, it must have an examiner of Estimates, who will do services in regard to the Estimates analogous to those of the Comptroller and Auditor-General in regard to the audited accounts. He also should be independent of the Departments, independent even of the Government, able to criticise absolutely freely, and to investigate with complete freedom and authority the Estimates presented by the Government Departments to the Estimates Committee.
I admit freely that I am not a great advocate of the Estimates Committee at all. I believe the proper place in which to investigate the Estimates is here in the House, but if we are to have an Estimates Committee let us at least have one with some authority and power, and let it be one that will interchange its information with the Public Accounts Committee. I submit that the matter was carefully investigated, and if the Estimates Committee is to be set up, I beg the House to give it the necessary powers.

§ Mr. CLYNES
I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
My hon. Friend has rather discussed the conduct of other Governments than that of the present Government. I think it is undesirable at present to enter into the merits of the question, but I think my hon. Friend may take it we are not losing sight of the points submitted. The Government have not been able to settle yet, for want of time, its policy on this question, but the views my hon. Friend has expressed will be reported and considered in the proper quarter. It is not our wish, in the circumstances, to press the Resolution to-night.