HC Deb 06 August 1924 vol 176 cc3001-6

Lords Amendment:

In page 9, line 7, after "and," insert "after consultation with the agricultural wages committee concerned."

Mr. W. R. SMITH

I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

I want to draw attention to the fact that this deals with the appointment of secretaries of the respective wages committees, and it is suggested that consultation should take place with those committees before the secretaries are appointed. This would mean, perhaps, considerable delay, and I am sure the House would not wish the operation of this Act to be delayed coming into full effect. The reason of the delay would be because a committee obviously could not meet without a secretary being present, and, therefore, it is important that he should be appointed as soon as possible. Again, I do not think this would lead to efficiency. I think the selection of secretaries is a most important point and that persons should be selected for this work who have the necessary and proper qualifications, and that can only be done, I suggest, by the Ministry. There is the further point that it would be introducing a new principle in the sense that the Ministry, which has the paying of the officials, would not have complete control over their appointment.

Mr. MILLS

I want to ask whether the Parliamentary Secretary can reassure the House as to the methods by which these officials and secretaries are to be appointed. Will there be public advertisements?

Mr. SPEAKER

That does not arise on consideration of the Lords Amendment.

Lords Amendment:

In page 9, line 9, after the word "number," insert the words "and after such consultation as aforesaid.''

Mr. SMITH

I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

It is consequential upon the previous one.

Lords Amendment:

In page 9, line 13, after the word "power," insert the words "on giving reasonable and proper notice."

Mr. SMITH

I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

At the same time, I wish to move a further Amendment with a view to meeting the condition somewhat. If notice has to be given in regard to all the paragraphs of this Sub-section, it will be putting the agricultural worker in that respect on an entirely different basis from that of the workers in any other industry to which similar legislation applies, and I think the House will recognise that prompt investigation very often is the very essence of the case if the facts are to be ascertained, but attention has been drawn to a point in connection with this matter, namely, that so far as the books are concerned, there is a slight difference between agriculture and most other industries. They are kept at the farmer's house, in so far as they are kept at all, and perhaps it is not unreasonable to suggest that notice should be given there to inspect them. Therefore, in disagreeing with the Lords Amendment, I wish to move to substitute in its place an Amendment to insert the words, "after giving reasonable notice," at the beginning of paragraph (a) of Sub-section (2). That would mean that it would apply only to paragraph, (a), the inspection of the books.

Mr. WOOD

There is certainly force in what the hon. Gentleman argues, but I think he might very well have gone a little further than he has in his attempt to meet the suggestion. I would like to ask him whether he could not apply the giving of reasonable notice not only to (a), but also to (b). I think he is quite right about (c), but I certainly think he ought to extend it to (b). It is not asking a great deal that, before an officer of this body goes to make an inspection on a farm, he should at least tell the farmer he is coming. I suggest it would improve the smooth-working, and avoid a certain amount of unnecessary friction that, otherwise, a tactless officer might create, if it were understood that before he paid a visit to a farm he should give reasonable notice that he was going.

Mr. VIVIAN

Will the hon. Gentleman say what the word "premises" means? Does that include the dwelling-house of a farmer?

Mr. SMITH

I can only suggest that the term "premises" means any part of the premises necessary for the purpose for which the visit is made.

Mr. VIVIAN

Does it include the dwelling-house?

Mr. SMITH

Yes.

Mr. VIVIAN

Might he go there without notice?

Mr. SMITH

He could call at the house. I think the point is covered by giving reasonable notice as to the examination of books.

Mr. VIVIAN

Will the hon. Gentleman answer me plainly as to whether this is going to give the right of entry, without notice, to a private dwelling-house?

Mr. SMITH

Strictly speaking, I suppose, it would be held to mean that, but I think, at the same time, we have to have some regard to the fact that any officer appointed for this purpose would act in a reasonable manner. We have inserted in paragraph (b) the words "to enter at all reasonable times," and I venture to suggest that the term "premises" for this purpose would very largely mean the farm premises. If it were necessary to visit the house, due courtesy would be used by the officer, and I think, having put in the words "at all reasonable times," this is sufficient for the purpose my hon. Friend has in view.

Mr. SPEAKER

I must point out that this matter is not open to discussion. These words are in the Bill as it left this House.

Mr. L. JONES

On a point of Order. It is only in the Bill subject to the Amendment which the Lords have inserted requiring reasonable notice in the case of (a), (b) and (c). The Minister is now taking that out, and only applying it to (a). From the point of view of the interests of the farmer, and so forth, I think it is even more important in paragraph (b) than in paragraph (a).

Mr. SPEAKER

Paragraph (b), which has been agreed to by both Houses, gives power to enter at all reasonable times any premises or place.

Mr. WOOD

With great respect, is it not the case that paragraph (b) only stands as returned from another place, subject to the words which another place inserted in the early part of the Sub-section governing alike (a), (b) and (c)?

Mr. DUKES

The object of entry is to inspect books. Paragraph (a) gives power to inspect and take copies of wages sheets. It is obvious that the point of entry would be where they are kept, and it appears that the question raised by the hon. Gentleman would never be likely to arise.

Mr. SPEAKER

I think the right hon. Member is right. The words introduced by the Lords would govern both paragraphs.

Mr. FOOT

I appreciate the argument of the hon. Gentleman that there may be difficulties on rare occasions, and that you may have in one case or another a farmer who is contumacious and not desirous of working the Act. But what purpose can be achieved by suddenly darting upon a farmer's premises without giving notice? It is not as if the farmer can alter the conditions of the farm or of his workmen or their wages if notice is given him, and I think that if it is necessary to get this Measure worked with good-will, reasonable notice might be asked for. I think we shall be with the hon. Gentleman if he can give us any assurance that this is necessary to protect the workers' interests. I cannot conceive any circumstances where the workers' interests would be protected simply because you gave the inspector power of going down immediately. The farmer is entitled to some reasonable notice before his farm is visited, and while I know that something may be said about other industries, I hope there will be some regard paid to what is a real difference between the agricultural industry and the industries in the towns, which for a long time have been used to legislation of this description. If we can be satisfied that the elimination of the words suggested by the Lords is necessary for the protection of the workers' interests, we are prepared to support the Minister, but I think it is well, if you can, to get the goodwill of the farmers, and I know they have raised very strong objection to the power being given to any inspector to come down with a form with the King's Arms upon it, enabling the officer to enter any part of the farm, or even the private dwelling-house. If the workers' interests are affected in this matter, I shall be prepared to support the Minister, but I would like to be assured on that point.

Mr. SMITH

I quite agree with the hon. Member as to the necessity and desirability of having as much good will in this matter as it is possible to get. In that respect, I would like to point out that these words were in the last Act, and, in face of that experience, the Bill as it left this House was an agreed Bill, not only as far as the Members of the House were concerned, but, I think I am also entitled to say, that those who represent the farmers in these matters did not raise any objection. Having had experience extending over a period of years, and those who are capable of looking after the interests of the farmers, so far as they are organised, not having raised any objection, it is a sufficient assurance that there is not a hardship in this matter, and that nothing is likely to occur in its application to which farmers could reasonably take exception. With regard to the question whether anything is to be gained by it, I can assure my hon. Friend that those who have had experience in these matters do know that if time be given there is always the possibility of intimidation. I am not making that as a general charge against farmers as a whole. These provisions have not been put into this Bill because of any difficulty with farmers as a whole. It is difficulty that arises with a few farmers, and that particular type of farmer, just as he will seek to evade his obligations in one respect, will also seek to cover up his evasions in another, if given an opportunity. Promptness, therefore, in investigation is really essential from the workers' point of view. I hope on those points I have satisfied my hon. Friend that it is essential in the interests of the workers, and as no point has been raised on the other side, it may be taken that there is nothing unreasonable in the proposal in the Bill.

Captain BOWYER

I think this point is a little more important. The hon. Member seemed to infer that as the words are proposed to be inserted in paragraph (a), it is not necessary to insert them in paragraph (b). That is not so. Paragraph (b) says to enter at all reasonable times any premises or place for the purpose of such inspection"— If it ended there, it would be quite correct, but it goes on or for the enforcement of this Act; and. Those are very wide terms.

Mr. DUKES

Is not this a paragraph of a previous Clause?

Captain BOWYER

I am only pointing out that these are very wide terms—"or for the enforcement of this Act." I only rise to emphasise the protest made by the hon. Member opposite against any man having his house invaded without notice, and I do submit there can be no harm at all in inserting the words in paragraph (b) as well as in paragraph (a).

Amendment made in lieu of Lords Amendment: In page 9, line 14, at the beginning, insert "after giving reasonable notice."—[Mr. W. R. Smith.]