CLAUSE 24 (Powers for Fishery Board to place gratings in water-courses. (Hansard, 7 May 1923)

§ Major PAGET
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "shall be some," and to insert instead thereof the words for the purpose of this and the preceding Section shall be any. 2109 I propose to take the opposite method of softening the Minister's heart. I do not propose to make a speech in proposing this Amendment which stands in the name of my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Sir Arthur Holbrook). He has been taken sick.

§ Major WHELER
I beg to second the Amendment.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
What is the meaning of the Amendment? The hon. Member who was to have moved the Amendment has been taken sick, and the hon. and gallant Member who moved for him and the Hon. Gentleman who seconded or the Minister has not said one word about it.

§ Sir R. SANDERS
It simply amplifies the Sub-section to include something that looks like a grating, but does not quite come in under the same name.

Lieut-Colonel MURRAY
The Minister may have given, from his point of view, a very intelligible explanation, but I venture to say it is perfectly unintelligible to the House. So far as I can see, this Amendment substitutes for the word "grating" the words "or other device."

§ Mr. SPEAKER
The hon. Member is speaking to the wrong Amendment.

§ Major PAGET
I beg to move, in Subsection (5, d), after the word "grating" ["any such grating"], to insert the words "or other device."

Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY
I desire to ask the Minister of Agriculture what is meant by this Amendment? He has not given any explanation to the House. This Amendment substitutes for the word "grating" the words "or other device." In any event, the effect would be the same, whether you add or substitute. The effect would be to allow any device, that seems to me to explain the 2110 intentions of the Clause. I should like to ask the Minister whether there is any limitation at all to the device that may be used, and what device is proposed to be used? Surely, if the Minister accepts the Amendment, he knows what it means and will he explain to the House what it does mean?

§ Sir R. SANDERS
If the hon. and gallant Member will look at the words that were under discussion, he would see that if injury is caused to a grating or other device an offence is committed under the Bill. There may be something, as I said just now, very much like a grating, if it does not exactly define it by that word and if anyone injures that he is guilty of an offence under this Bill, although it is not properly described as a grating.

§ Mr. NEIL MACLEAN
If the Government accept this Amendment they are making matters rather peculiar in the eyes of a number of people. It will mean that the Fisheries Board or those who bring about a prosecution may take up a prosecution upon something that may not be considered to be very penal. "Any other device" means anything, and does not in any way define what is to constitute an offence. The hon. and gallant Member who moved the original Amendment to which this is purely consequential, has not given an explanation of what is meant by the Amendment and its particular application. The Minister of Agriculture has not in any way described what may be brought within the term. It is all very well to say something like a grating. You are leaving the whole thing open. I think the House should be given at least some idea as to what devices are meant. I am perfectly at sea regarding this, though perhaps that is appropriate in dealing with such a "Any other device" is quite an unfamiliar term and when you are bringing in what is called a consolidating Bill in order to make the law much clearer than it has been in the past, where you wish to define the powers given to Fisheries Boards and which have to understand what their powers were to be, it is necessary to make the Act plainer than you have done in the provisions of this Bill. I hope I may have the attention of the Minister although perhaps there is a discussion going on on the Front Bench as to what "any other device" may actually mean because 2111 the Front Bench is in a little difficulty there and do not quite understand what it really means. You should try to make the law more definite and not put in such a vague phrase. Perhaps the Solicitor-General will give us what is in his mind as to the legal interpretation of "any other device" so that anyone who turns up the Debate upon this particular Amendment will know exactly what the legal meaning of the phrase is and will understand just how far he has to go and how much he can do in the way of interfering or tampering with these things that are called "any other device."

§ Mr. PRINGLE
I regret very much that my hon. and gallant Friend was unable to address you on these consequential Amendments. I think there is no justification for these consequential Amendments at all. If hon. Members would look at Sub-section (2) it would be seen that there is no real difference made which renders a consequential Amendment necessary. The Sub-section as it stands in the Bill says: The grating shall be some device approved by the Minister, for preventing the passage of salmon or trout through the conduit or channel in which it is placed. The Amendment alters the words The grating shall be for the purpose of this and the preceding Section any device— Consequently no consequential Amendment is necessary. I submit that to the Attorney-General. If grating covers any device mentioned by the Minister the words other device are totally unnecessary and may cause difficulty or confusion. I submit the Government should take means of getting rid of these unnecessary words. I believe the Lords will have to consider them and I suggest that these consequential Amendments should be removed in the House of Lords. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider that point.

§ Sir R. SANDERS
I will submit that to the draftsmen.