HC Deb 01 May 1923 vol 163 cc1329-38

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Colonel Leslie Wilson.]

Mr. MACPHERSON: I make no apology for raising the question of trawling, legal and illegal, around Scotland on the Adjournment to-night. I gave my hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health notice that I would raise this matter, in view of the unsatisfactory answer which my colleagues and I have received to various questions which we put to him in connection with that subject. My hon. and gallant Friend told me, when I along with my colleagues, pressed him for an inquiry into the whole subject in Scotland, that if I presented an aspect of the case to him, he would consider the matter. I think the House will agree with me that my colleagues from Scotland and myself have presented many aspects of the case to him, and that, so far, we have had no satisfaction of any sort or kind. When I raise the whole question of trawling in Scotland, let me make it perfectly clear that I have nothing to say against the Fishery Board, or the Chairman of the Fishery Board, in Scotland. I believe that the Board, instead of being, as it was for many years, a fossilised Department, is now a real, live Department. I am very glad to pay my personal tribute to the present Chairman of that Board, who is sincerely anxious to help the whole of the fishing industry in Scotland.

I am not going to deal to-night with the difficult and thorny subject of the strike in Aberdeen, in connection with the landing of the foreign fish by foreign trawlers in that city. I am going to deal, however, with one or two other aspects of the subject. I am dealing, first of all, with the lack of proper policing around the coast of Scotland.

Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY

And elsewhere.

Mr. MACPHERSON

My hon. and gallant Friend says "elsewhere." That may be so, but at the present moment we are concerned with the unsatisfactory nature of the policing round the coast of Scotland. I have received complaints, as a Member for the North of Scotland, and so have all my colleagues, that, on the West Coast, on the North Coast, and on the East Coast, illegal trawling takes place, not only on the lawful days of the week, but, what is particularly obnoxious to the people in the North of Scotland, on Sundays also. My hon. and gallant Friend admitted the other day that foreign trawlers even come into certain parts of the bays and waters off the coast of Scotland. I have reason to believe—I will say that of my hon. and gallant Friend, I hope it has been the result of our questions in this House—that an attempt has been made in certain pares of Scotland to improve the policing. What are the facts? These trawlers come into the bays during the night. They have no lights. They are only identified by the noise of the engines; and the fishermen, who are entirely dependent upon their lines and their nets, and the use of those, in those bays and inland waters, are seeing their livelihood wholly ruined. The spawning beds are ruined all round the coast. As my hon. and gallant Friend knows, we cannot afford, in Scotland, nor can the Empire afford, to lose—and those men are being driven away from their homes—that breed of manhood. Why? For the simple reason that during the War they performed deeds of extraordinary valour. Now they have the insult thrust upon them, that the very men who were laying mines in German trawlers against our sailors and our fishermen are being allowed to come into the Moray Firth—that is my next point—while they themselves are not allowed to trawl within the precincts of the Moray Firth, as are the foreign trawlers.

My hon. and gallant Friend told us yesterday that the police force of cruisers identified, on the average, two foreign trawlers per month. When he admits that, we may take it for granted that far more foreign trawlers come in than those two which he is willing to admit. A colleague of mine in this House has seen foreign trawlers busy on a summer evening in the Moray Firth. I pressed my hon. and gallant Friend, and so did some of my colleagues, to get his Noble Friend the Secretary for Scotland to secure a review of the North Sea Convention. It is a very extraordinary fact that a Soviet trawler, a German trawler, a French trawler, a Belgian trawler, and a Norwegian trawler can come with the line from Duncansby Head to Rattray Point, and yet an Aberdeen or Hull trawler is not allowed to come within the area.

That is an intolerable situation. I am not arguing that any trawler should go in there. It may well be that a case can be made out for the line net fishermen by those who would desire to see that industry preserved and to see the livelihood of the fishermen preserved in the fishing villages, but that is not the point: what we are strongly opposed to is that when any trawler is to come inside the line between Duncansby Head and Ilattray Point it is only to be a foreign trawler, and that the fishermen have to see their livelihood taken away from them by foreign trawlers coming within that line and destroying the spawning beds. I pressed my hon. and gallant Friend to get a review of the North Sea Convention. The famous case dealing with this point, decided by the most distinguished of Scottish Judges—Lord Dunedin—laid down that the Statute law of the realm is that no trawler is allowed to trawl within three miles of the coast—no British trawler—and yet foreign trawlers are allowed to come within the line of the Moray Firth.

Captain ELLIOT (Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, Scotland)

Surely my right hon. Friend is not contending that these fishermen are allowed to trawl within that limit?

Mr. MACPHERSON

I am contending that within the line of the Moray Firth the foreign trawler can trawl—not within the 3-mile limit—but no British trawler can trawl. That is our point, and that is really the gravamen of our charge. I ask the House to picture to themselves the feelings of those gallant fishermen who are compelled to witness men who were their enemies, doing to death their kinsmen less than four years ago, having a privilege they are precluded from enjoying in their own waters. My hon. Friend is content to say when we press him about the landing of fish at Aberdeen, "These fish are caught in Icelandic waters." That is always the case put up in the police court at Aberdeen by the German trawler. The story of the gallant fishermen on the East Coast is not listened to. Bureaucracy will not listen to these fishermen. They prefer to listen to the story of the man on his defence in the police court. I prefer to believe the word of the fisherman on the East Coast before that of the owner of a German trawler. If it is contended in this House that the fish dumped down in Aberdeen are fish from Icelandic waters, that may be true with regard to probably 75 per cent. of the fish so dumped, but the fact remains that time after time fishermen on the East Coast have told me that these trawlers catch fish before their eyes and dump them down to compete with them in the Aberdeen market.

I ask my hon. and gallant Friend, before this matter goes much further, to consent to the reasonable request that I make. I ask him to appoint a small committee to inquire into the whole question. I have been an administrator in Government Departments myself, and I know the great value that the assistance of competent, unbiased men to an administrator in any Department. He cannot be unaware of the fact that this question of trawling is a serious question in Scotland. From south, north, east and west he has been pressed with questions. He is aware that at present one of the gravest of all disputes is taking place in Aberdeen. I am not dealing with that at present, because I realise that another department is concerned, but it is a point germane to the point which I am making. I am asking him to appoint a Committee of Inquiry. He can inquire whether the policing of the coast is effective. He can inquire about the feeling with regard to the Moray Firth and the feeling with regard to the dumping of fish. He can find out whether in any way he can restore confidence once again to the finest of all populations in Scotland, the finest fishing population on the coast of Scotland. I ask him, I believe with the support of all right thinking men in this House, now that the matter is fresh in his mind and while it is a live matter, to give his consent to the appointment of this Committee of Inquiry.

Sir MURDOCH MACDONALD

I support the appeal of my right hon. Friend. I have repeatedly attempted to have illegal trawling on the west coast of Scotland put down, but I have always been met with the reply that the provision of an extra vessel to patrol the coast is out of the question at present in view of financial circumstances. In other words, only one boat, a small, inefficient boat, controls the fishing on the west coast of Scotland at present. Since receiving that letter in January, I have been told, in reply to questions in this House, that all possible attention is being paid to these matters consistently with the requirements of other districts and with the means at the disposal of the Fishery Board of Scotland. These are wholly inadequate for the purpose. A gentleman who has no connection with fishing writes me: At various rent collections I had in this district within the past two weeks I received bitter complaints from people regarding damage done by trawling on the inshore fishing grounds. The practice has become so bad that many families mainly dependent on inshore fishing for sale locally are at present practically deprived of their livelihood. A clergyman writes me: The enclosed resolutions will give you an idea of my reason for writing you at present. Sheer force of circumstances has compelled me to take the action which the resolutions indicate, that the people are faced with starvation unless something is done without any further delay. Another clergyman writes in the same train: I wish you could get the powers-that-be to realise that, unless the Government are prepared to enforce the laws of the Realm in this connection, the end of the business will be an outbreak of lawlessness on the part of the long-suffering islanders. There are many other letters from which I could read extracts, but I think I have read sufficient to show that on the West Coast it is necessary to have additional means of putting down illegal trawling, and I hope that the Government will agree to the committee which has been recommended.

Captain ELLIOT

There have been two main points raised—the question of the specific cases of hardship inflicted upon the trawling industry by the closing of certain specified areas of our shores, and the general question of the insufficient policing of the waters of Great Britain. My time is very limited, but the argument I have to meet is undoubtedly a very serious one indeed. I will deal first of all with the general case as to the insufficiency of the policing of the waters around Great Britain. We must admit that nothing can be more infuriating to the fishermen of these islands than to see contraventions of the law taking place, either by fishermen from foreign countries or by poachers of their own nationality. But I should like the House to appreciate the extraordinary seriousness of the position which has arisen with regard to the expense of carrying out this police work. It is not generally recognised that, in this matter of policing of the fishery vessels, the Fishery Board is living on its capital. Funds are rapidly becoming exhausted, and in the year 1924–25 we shall have to face the question, not of extending the policing of these waters, but of the complete exhaustion of the funds from which the present policing is maintained. Before the War the £15,000, with miscellaneous receipts, sufficed for the maintenance of the cruisers, but since the War, in 1920–21, the cost was £47,000, in 1921–22 it was £39,000, and in 1922–23 it was £30,000. What is the effect upon a revenue of £15,000 of maintaining a service which is costing 230,000?

I merely wish the House to realise that, with the funds at our disposal, we are certainly carrying out the utmost efforts in that direction and that further efforts in the matter of policing will inevitably demand the vote of a considerable sum by this House.

Mr. MACPHERSON

Is it not the custom of every decent Government to maintain the law?

Captain ELLIOT

Yes, Sir, but I must give one or two figures. The sum available for the maintenance of five fishery cruisers is an annual sum of £15,000 from the Local Taxation Account of Scotland and certain miscellaneous receipts, to which are added reserves accumulated out of the annual sum of £15,000, to a small extent before the War and to a larger extent during the War, when the cruisers formed a charge on the Admiralty.

Mr. MACPHERSON

Am I to understand that this is purely a question of finance: and that the Scottish Office say that they are not able because of their finance to police these coasts, and to prevent illegalities: is that the answer?

Captain ELLIOT

That is not the answer. There are two points involved in this. The question of finance is one which we have to take into account in meeting the contention that more should be done. We have already gone so far as to spend more than double our revenue in maintaining these services. I wish the House to take account of that main fact.

Sir M. MACDONALD

Does that mean that double the service is being done?

Captain ELLIOT

No; it means that the expense of maintaining the ships is double what it was in pre-War times. It is, I admit, the same service.

Sir M. MACDONALD

Is not everything double?

Captain ELLIOT

There is a very short time in which to deal with the extremely important point raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ross and Cromarty, namely, the question of the grievance suffered by the fishermen of Great Britain in the closing of certain areas to British fishermen, which it is admitted are still possible for boats from other countries to fish in. This point is not merely one of our own legislation, because, as is admitted on all sides, we cannot enforce our prohibition without agreement on the point by neighbouring States. We have done our best to bring about this agreement, and, as a matter of fact, the subject is at present under consideration by the scientific body for controlling the whole question of fishing stocks in the North Sea. If it is to be enforced, such an agreement will be met by reciprocal concession on our part regarding the trawling of our nationals in the off-shore waters of other countries. We could not prevent the fishermen from other countries from fishing outside the three-mile limit off our shores, but we could see that if they did contravene our law they should not be allowed to land any of the fish captured, and this has been enforced. It is claimed by the right hon. Gentleman that the number of complaints has been far greater than the number of detections. During the four months from the 1st January to the 30th April, the number of complaints, both specific and general, all round these Islands, was 35; 26 detections have taken place, and in 17 cases convictions have resulted. The number of complaints does not bear the extraordinary disproportion to the number of convictions which one would be inclined to suppose.

On the subject of an inquiry, let us remember that we hazard a great deal, especially the constituents of the right hon. Gentleman, because when we begin on an inquiry the result of it may be that we do the only thing which we can do by legislation, namely, open the Moray Firth to trawlers from all parts, both British and foreign trawlers, put the British trawlers on the basis of equality with the foreign trawlers, and thereby bring about the situation that the British trawlers will go in and sweep the Moray Firth from end to end, a thing we are desirous of preventing. In the matter of the inquiry, I am personally disposed to regard it most sympathetically, and shall certainly bring before my Noble Friend the Secretary for Scotland the very strong case which has been put forward this evening. I cannot, of course, promise that a Committee will be granted because that is not in my power, but I consider that a Committee of inquiry would enable us to investigate these allegations which have been made, but I ask my right hon. Friend to remember, when he presses this point, the tremendous risk which is run by the result being the opening of the Moray Firth, and a situation brought about which we are all anxious to avoid, namely, the sweeping of these spawning beds clean from end to end, and the resultant ruining of the line fishermen of these parts.

It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Half after Eleven o'Clock.