§ "to repeal the Trades Disputes Act, 1906," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 111.]
§ Mr. PRINGLEOn a point of Order. Is it not the Rule to ask an hon. or right hon. Gentleman, who rises to speak on a Motion under the Ten Minutes Rule, whether he intends to oppose the Bill, and is it not a Rule of the House that any hon. or right hon. Gentleman who opposes a Bill in such a case is understood to challenge a Division?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat question was raised in the time of my predecessor, and 1195 I think his answer was that you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.
§ Mr. PRINGLEBut, when a right hon. Gentleman rises with the intention of not dividing, is he entitled to oppose the Bill?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat point has been covered by the ruling of my predecessor on more than one occasion.
§ Mr. SHINWELLOn that same point of Order. May I submit that, in this Session and in the preceding one, we have had instances of a similar character, and that no exception has been taken? We have had instances when hon. Members rose ostensibly for the purpose of opposing Bills which were eventually accepted unanimously.
§ Mr. SPEAKERWe had a case only last, week.
§ Mr. PRINGLEIn that case, was not the hon. Member asked whether he was going to oppose the Bill?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI am bound to say I did not know, until his last sentence, that the right hon. Gentleman was not going to divide.
§ Mr. PRINGLEI also wish to recall that on two instances during this Session I have opposed Bills in these circumstances, and on both of those occasions I was asked explicitly whether I opposed the Bill; and on both occasions, in the first instance, I challenged a Division.
Mr. THOMASMay I put it to you that on many occasions, both this Session and in the last Parliament, a similar procedure was adopted, and, if an hon. Member feels that the best means of opposing a Bill is to take the line that I indicated, is he not strictly within his rights in doing so? If, on the other hand, any section of the House were denied the opportunity of showing that they have more interest in trade unionism than the Labour party, we should very much regret it.
§ Mr. PETOIn view of the subtlety of the point which has just been put by the right hon. Gentleman, may I point out that this occasion differs materially from any previous occasion? It has been the 1196 custom, when an hon. Member has risen to oppose a Measure under the Ten Minutes Rule, that he has been asked, as the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Pringle) has pointed out, whether he rose to oppose the Measure or not, and in any event the speeches made have been in strong opposition to the Measure. The speech, however, of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby was not only in support of the Measure, but the right hon. Gentleman wished the Mover every power and success, and even went so far as to urge that he should press the Government to afford facilities for getting it through. In these circumstances, may I ask whether it is not really a departure from the principle of the rule that an hon. Member can only speak after the introduction of a Measure if he intends to oppose it, and is, presumably, going to divide against it?
§ Mr. SPEAKERSpeaking from recollection, the words of my predecessor were that it is not essential that a Member should divide against a Bill. Of course, Mr. Speaker has no power to make him divide, but it certainly has been the understanding that he intended to oppose the Measure, and, until the last words of the right hon. Gentleman, I assumed that that was what he was going to do. I can see the outside of the right hon. Gentleman, but not the inside.
§ Sir F. BANBURYMay I ask whether it is not a fact that the late Speaker, when Sir John Rees was opposing the introduction of a Bill, and said, "I do not intend to divide against the Bill," said, "In those circumstances the hon. Baronet has not the right to speak, and I must ask him to sit down"?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI should have done the same had that been stated at the beginning of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, but when it is only stated in the last sentence, I am helpless.