§ Mr. LEES SMITHMay I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to give a ruling and perhaps some advice—[HON. MEMBERS "Speak up!"]—on a point of procedure which has arisen in the last Session. From these benches we have, I think, on two or three occasions in this Session put 1187 down Instructions for Committees on Bills to be taken after the Second Reading of the Bill had been carried. I do not know whether these Instructions would or would not have been in order, but what has happened is that you have never had the opportunity of ruling whether they were in order or out of order, because they have disappeared from the Notice Paper, and hon. Members who have placed them on the Paper have not had the opportunity of moving them, whether they were in order or not. I have made inquiries as to how this has happened, and I should like to have your ruling as to what is the position in which the House now finds itself in regard to the moving of Instructions, and I would like to know whether the opportunity for dealing with Instructions is when the Order for the committal of the Bill is read to the House. Is that the time that you, Mr. Speaker, rule as to whether Instructions are or are not in order, and is that the time when such Instructions can be debated?
It has been explained that an opportunity arises quite rightly in the case of a Bill which comes before a Committee of the Whole House, but in the case of a Bill which goes to a Standing Committee, the Standing Order which was passed long before Standing Committees were formed has made no provision for Standing Committees, with the result that the time never arises in this House in an ordinary case when it is possible for you, Mr. Speaker, to rule, or for the Instructions to be discussed. Would you inform the House whether it is the position now that, in the case of a Bill which goes to a Standing Committee, the only chance an unofficial Member has to move an Instiruction is if the Government will give him the time, or if the Government will allow it to be taken as unopposed, or if the Debate on the Second Reading happens to come to an end before 11 o'clock? We should also like to know what is the exact position which has arisen by which the House has lost the right to move Instructions on the majority of Bills. As far as I can ascertain it has not arisen by any intention, but because provision was never made as to what was to happen to Bills sent to Standing Committees. Now that that has become the normal process and new arrangements are in force, will you, Mr. 1188 Speaker, tell us exactly what is the position of the House now in regard to this matter?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI think the hon. Member has quite correctly stated what the position is now with regard to Instructions. When the Standing Order was made by the House, in 1907, sending Bills to a Standing Committee as the normal Procedure, it reversed what up to that time had been the practice of the House. I assume that the House of that day was aware of what it was doing, and the effect it would have on the question of moving Instructions. The hon. Member asks me for advice, but the only advice I can give him is that he should draft an Amendment to the Standing Order dealing with Standing Committees, place it on the Paper, and see if he can persuade the Government to give an opportunity for discussing it.
Mr. J. RAMSAY MacDONALDOn this point of Order and the explanation which you, Mr. Speaker, have been asked to give, I think every Member of this House desires to retain a reasonable opportunity for the discussion of Instructions in regard to important Bills, and since it has become more habitual that Bills which at one time would have been kept on the Floor of the House now go upstairs to a Standing Committee, I think all parties will agree that some amendment of our Standing Orders is necessary. May I ask the Government if, through the usual channels, they will consider the possibility of getting an Amendment made to the Standing Order, which probably could be got through this House without any discussion at all to secure the right, first of all, that you, Mr. Speaker, may rule whether certain Instructions are or are not in order, and that when certain sound Instructions have passed the scrutineers this House may have an opportunity of deciding whether such Instructions shall or shall not be given to the Standing Committee upstairs.
§ Sir FREDERICK BANBURYIs it not a fact that the alteration in the Standing Orders was moved by the party to which the hon. Member then belonged, and was it not intended by his party to apply to the Opposition? The late Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman insisted upon this, and he was supported by the hon. Member and his supporters.
Mr. MacDONALDWe are always glad to listen to what the right hon. Baronet who has just sat down has to say on these points, and we are very glad to see him back again in the House. On this particular point he happens to be right, and I hope he will support me in my request to the Government to enable us to amend the Standing Orders which the right bon. Baronet wished to do some years ago.
§ Mr. BALDWINIn response to the appeal of the Leader of the Opposition, I shall of course be very pleased to discuss this matter with him, although I cannot commit myself at this moment, until I have heard what he has to say, as to what course I shall take. I am a little reluctant to suggest to the House ad hoc changes with regard to our procedure, and I think it would be much more suitable, speaking generally, that any changes in our procedure should be considered in relation to the whole procedure of the House. I should be quite willing to discuss this matter without prejudice.