§ The Treasury may issue out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great.-Britain and Ireland (which fund shall hereafter he styled and known as the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom) and apply towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of Mar eh, one thousand nine hundred and twenty-three, the sum of one million two hundred and nine thousand and ninety-eight pounds.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, stand part of the Bill."
Captain BENNI am aware that it not possible under this Bill to discuss the propriety of expenditure, but there are some matters that can be discussed on the Appropriation Bill. Sir Erskine May lays it down that Amendments must be restricted to matters of appropriation, and it is to a matter of appropriation that I desire to refer. My contention is that when money is being used with the sanction of the Treasury for which it is not appropriated, then that is a matter to which attention can be drawn properly on this Bill. The matter, in short, is this. In the Army Estimates last year large sums of money were taken for,the arms and transport of the Army, but anyone who examines the Army Estimates will see that there was no indication whatever that these stores were to be used for expeditions of a military—
§ The CHAIRMANThat does not arise on the Question that Clause 1 stand part of the Bill. This is an issue Clause, enabling the Treasury to issue certain sums of money from the Consolidated Fund for the services of the year. Any question as to the proper presentation of that is provided for by a, proper constitutional body, namely, the Public Accounts Committee, and it cannot arise in a discussion on the question that a Clause stand part of the Bill.
Captain BENNI submit that the point which will come before the Comptroller and Auditor-General, namely, whether a Supplementary Estimate should not have been presented for the expedition in the Dardanelles, is properly discussed by the House on the Bill which confers the duty on the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and, incidentally, which guides the Comptroller and Auditor-General in deciding whether or not the money has been properly used. Although I had not the least intention of going into the merits of the question, I propose to divide the House in order that we might make a protest against what has occurred.
§ The CHAIRMANI have exercised my-own ingenuity in these matters in the past. In accordance with all former rulings, the matter cannot now be discussed. The hon. and gallant Gentleman may be right or wrong, but he cannot raise the matter now.
Captain BENNDo I understand you to rule that, despite the extract which I have read from Erskine May's "Parliamentary Practice," this House must wait for two years before it can call attention to the fact that money has been voted for one purpose and used for another?
§ The CHAIRMANI do not say that that is the only opportunity, but I do say that this is not the opportunity.
§ Mr. PRINGLEIs not this a question of appropriation? I submit that an appropriation was made, in respect of the service for the current. year, in August last. As since then that appropriation has been altered and a Supplementary Estimate has been introduced, is it not within the power of the Committee to raise the question of the appropriation on this Supplementary Estimate, which would have afforded the ordinary constitutional way of altering the appropriation?
§ The CHAIRMANI do not act so much on the terms of the Bill as on the continuous practice of all Chairmen in ruling upon this particular matter.
Captain BENNForgive me for pressing my point, but it involves a very great public issue of Parliamentary control. Is it not a fact that it is quite possible that a precedent has not arisen because the impropriety has not arisen? If that is so, when has this House an opportunity of 579 protesting against the voting of money for one purpose and the using of it for another?
§ The CHAIRMANIf the matter is of the importance that the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks, it might have been better if he had mentioned it to me beforehand, so that I might have had an opportunity of giving him a considered ruling. As it is, the hon. and gallant Member must be content with my decision.
Lieut,-Commander KENWORTHYI apologise for not having mentioned the matter to you before, but I did not know
§ it would arise in this form. If we can show to you that, whereas in the past it has been the custom of this House not to debate the individual Clauses of the Bill, yet the, ordinary custom of supply being approved by this House has been departed from, would that. alter the case?
§ The CHAIRMANThat would open a very wide field of discussion, if once permitted. I can rely only on the continuous precedents of the past in this matter.
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 212; Noes, 107.
581| Division No. 69.] | AYES. | [4.26 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Lamb, J. Q. |
| Ainsworth, Captain Charles | Ednam, Viscount | Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. |
| Alexander, E. E. (Leyton, East) | Ellis, R. G. | Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) |
| Alexander, Col. M. (Southwark) | England, Lieut.-Colonel A. | Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Apsley, Lord | Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith | Lorden, John William |
| Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin | Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) | Lorimer, H. D. |
| Astbury, Lieut. Com. Frederick W. | Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. | Lougher, L. |
| Astor, J. J. (Kent, Dover) | Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) | Lumley, L. R. |
| Astor, Viscountess | Evans, Ernest (Cardigan) | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) |
| Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence | Eyres-Monsell, Com. Bolton M. | Maddocks, Henry |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray | Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham. S.) |
| Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- | Fermor-Hesketh, Major T. | Manville, Edward |
| Barnett, Major Richard W. | Flanagan, W. H. | Margesson, H. D. R. |
| Barnston, Major Harry | Ford, Patrick Johnston | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. | Foreman, Sir Henry | Martin, A. E. (Essex, Romford) |
| Bennett, Sir T. J. (Sevenoaks) | Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot | Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Mitchell. W. F. (Saffron Walden) |
| Berry, Sir George | Furness, G. J. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Betterton, Henry B. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Molloy, Major L. G. S. |
| Blades, Sir George Rowland | Ganzoni, Sir John | Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J. |
| Blundell, F. N. | Gates, Percy | Morden, Col. W. Grant |
| Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. | Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R. | Moreing, Captain Algernon H. |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. | Gilbert, James Daniel | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) |
| Brass, Captain W, | Goff, Sir R. Park | Murchison, C. K. |
| Brassey, Sir Leonard | Gray, Harold (Cambridge) | Murray, John (Leeds, West) |
| Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive | Hacking, Captain Douglas H. | Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) |
| Briggs, Harold. | Halstead, Major D. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) | Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham) | Newson, Sir Percy Wilson |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Nicholson, Brig-Gen. J. (Westminster) |
| Brown, J. W. (Middlesbrough, E.) | Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Bruford, R. | Harrison, F. C. | Nield, Sir Herbert |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Harvey, Major S. E. | Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John |
| Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. | Hawke, John Anthony | Parker, Owen (Kettering) |
| Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James | Henderson, Sir T. (Roxburgh) | Penny, Frederick George |
| Burn. Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew | Hennessy, Major J. R. G. | Perkins, Colonel E. K. |
| Butcher, Sir John George | Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Yeovil) | Philipson, H. H. |
| Cadogan, Major Edward | Herbert Dennis {Hertford, Watford) | Pollock, Rt. Hon. Sir Ernest Murray |
| Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. | Herbert, S. (Scarborough) | Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Hiley, Sir Ernest | Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. |
| Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) | Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. | Privett, F. J. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Birm.,W.) | Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone) | Raine, W. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Ladywood) | Hohier, Gerald Fitzroy | Rawlinson, Rt. Hon. John Fredk. Peel |
| Churchman, Sir Arthur | Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard | Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hood, Sir Joseph | Rees, Sir Beddoe |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hopkins, John W. W. | Remer. J. R. |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Houfton, John plowright | Remnant, Sir James |
| Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips | Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.) | Rentoul, G. S. |
| Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale | Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K. | Reynolds, W. G. w. |
| Cope, Major William | Hudson, Capt. A. | Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) |
| Cotts, Sir William Dingwall Mitchell | Hughes, Collingwood | Robertson, J. D. (Islington, W.) |
| Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) | Hume, G. H. | Rogerson, Capt. J. E. |
| Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Rose, Frank H. |
| Crook, C. W. (East Ham, North) | Hurst, Lt.-Col. Gerald Berkeley | Roundell, Colonel R. F. |
| Curzon, Captain Viscount | Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) | Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. | Russell, William (Bolton) |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Jarrett, G. W. S. | Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Doyle, N. Grattan | King, Captain Henry Douglas | Sanders, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert A. |
| Edge, Captain Sir William | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sanderson, Sir Frank B. |
| Sandon, Lord | Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth | Whitla, Sir William |
| Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. | Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H. | Winfrey, Sir Richard |
| Scott, Sir Leslie (Liverp'l, Exchange) | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton | Wise, Frederick |
| Shepperson, E. W. | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Shipwright, Captain D. | Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley) | Wood, Rt. Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) |
| Simpson-Hinchcliffe, W. A. | Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) | Woodcock, Colonel H. C. |
| Singleton, J. E. | Titchfield, Marquess of | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Skelton, A. N. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward |
| Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P. | Yerburgh, R. D. T. |
| Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness) | Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) | |
| Sparkes, H. W. | Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. | Wells, S. R. | Colonel Leslie Wilson and Colonel |
| Stanley, Lord | White, Col. G, D. (Southport) | Gibbs. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adams, D. | Hill, A. | Ritson, J. |
| Adamson, Ht. Hon. William | Hogge, James Myles | Roberts, C. H. (Derby) |
| Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Attlee, C. R. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland) |
| Barnes, A. | Johnston, Thomas (Stirling) | Saklatvala, S. |
| Batey, Joseph | Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) | Salter, Dr. A. |
| Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Sexton, James |
| Bowdler, W. A. | Jones. Morgan (Caerphilly) | Shakespeare, G. H. |
| Broad, F. A. | Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) | Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock) |
| Brotherton, J, | Ken worthy, Lieut.-Commander J, M. | Shinwell, Emanuel |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Buit) | Lansbury, George | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Burgess, S. | Lawson, John James | Simpson, J. Hope |
| Buxton, Charles (Accrington) | Leach, W | Smith, T. (Pontefract) |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Lee, F. | Snell, Harry |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lees-Smith, H. B. (Keighley) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Clynes., Rt. Hon, John R. | Linfield, F. C. | Sullivan, J. |
| Collison, Levi | Lowth, T. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow) |
| Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) | MacDonald, J. R. (Aberavon) | Trevelyan, C. P. |
| Dudgeon, Major C. R. | M'Entee, V. L. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Duffy, T. Gavan | March, S. | Warne, G. H. |
| Dunnico, H. | Marshall, Sir Arthur H. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) |
| Ede. James Chuter | Maxton, James | Webb, Sidney |
| Emlyn-Jones, J. E. (Dorset, N.) | Middleton, G. | Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. |
| Foot, Isaac | Millar, J. D. | Weir, L. M. |
| Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Westwood J. |
| Gray, Frank (Oxford) | Mosley, Oswald | Williams, David (Swansea, E.) |
| Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) | Muir, John W. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Groves T. | Murray, Hon. A, C. (Aberdeen) | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth) | Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Nichol, Robert | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) | O'Connor, Thomas P. | Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) |
| Haroie, George D. | Oliver, George Harold | Wright, W. |
| Harney, E. A. | Paling, W. | Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Harris, Percy A. | Ponsonby. Arthur | |
| Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) | Potts, John S. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hayes, John Henry (Edge HIM) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Mr. Pringle and Mr. McLaren. |
| Herrietts, J. | Riley, Ben |
Bill read the Third time, and passed.