§ 90. Mr. HAYESasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether R. B. Leahy, of 14, Ling Street, Edge Hill, Liverpool, who has been de- 1762 ported to Ireland, is now detained in Mountjoy Prison, Dublin; if so, whether he has been brought before any judicial authority; and, if not, what steps are being taken to secure a speedy and proper trial with full legal facilities for the deportee?
The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Bricigeman)I have been asked to reply to this question. Yes, Sir, this man is at present lodged in Mountjoy With the other persons just, sent over to Ireland. As I have already explained to the House, the statutory safeguard provided in these cases, if an internee desires to appeal, is reference to the Advisory Committee presided over by a Judge or ex-Judge, and facilities are being given for internees to communicate with their legal advisers and to interview them in connection with any such appeal.
§ Mr. HAYESAs the Government have accepted full responsibility for the deportations, will they accept equal responsibility for the return of these people to their homes, if the Advisory Committee recommend their release?
Captain BENNWill these men have the right if they desire to appear personally before the Advisory Committee?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is a matter on which I have another question.
Mr. J. RAMSAY MacDONALD(by Private Notice): I beg to ask the Home Secretary whether he can now say who the third member of the Advisory Committee under the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act Order is to be, and whether he can also now state what procedure the Committee is to adopt regarding personal interviews with nose who have been deported?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI have just learned that the gentleman whom I had invited to act as third member is engaged on other public work which may prevent him from joining this Committee, but there will be no delay in making an appointment. As' regards the second part of the question, their procedure is a matter for the Committee. I will, however, represent to them that they should, as suggested yesterday by the right hon. Member for Spen Valley, follow the practice adopted during the War under a similar regula- 1763 tion of giving an opportunity to the person interned to be seen by the Committee if there is reason to do so.
Mr. MacDONALDAssuming that there are any innocent persons, in view of the continued inconvenience and injustice done, could the right hon. Gentleman give us guarantees that this Committee will meet without delay?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANYes, certainly I am very sorry it, is not already set up. I wrote several days ago, and I only a few minutes ago got an answer from this third gentleman.
§ Mr. BUCHANANArising out of that answer, if it is proved that any of these persons are completely innocent, and have suffered any monetary loss or loss of situation, will the Home Secretary grant any compensation to them for the injury done?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI will certainly consider that, if they are entitled to it.
Captain BENNCan the Home Secretary say exactly what is meant by the words, "if there is reason to do so "? Does it mean that the accused person, if he desires, will have to provide adequate reason?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI was merely quoting the words used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Spen Valley yesterday, in the question he asked me then. I mean, and I think he meant, if the Committee—to whom I cannot dictate in this matter—think there is reason.
§ Sir JOHN SIMONMay I ask whether the Home Secretary has ascertained from the learned judge who, I think, presided over the Committee during the War, whether it is not the fact that he constantly did see applicants?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANYes, that is what I meant when I stated that this Committee would, I believe, follow the practice adopted by other Committees which were administering similar Regulations.
§ Mr. J. JONESWill the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of returning to the country of their birth English-born men and women who have been taken to Ireland, and of putting 1764 them on trial in the ordinary way for any offence which may be alleged against them?
§ Mr. SEXTONrose—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. KIRKWOODDo not laugh. This is a serious business. I know what it is to be deported.
§ Mr. SEXTONI was merely putting a question to the right hon. Gentleman. I wish to ask if in case a Member of this House can produce evidence with regard to a British-born subject—I will submit it to the right hon. Gentleman, evidence in regard to one who has been known to me from boyhood, and all his associations—if that is done, will it be accepted as evidence that he had no connection with the revolutionary party?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANThe proper course in that ease would be to appeal, and for the hon. Gentleman to give all the information he has got to add to this appeal before the Advisory Committee. With regard to the question of bringing a charge against British-born people in this country, I do not quite understand whether the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. Jones) means that he wishes that British-born people or British-domiciled people—I do not know which he said—
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANWell, I have not got them. The hon. Member asks whether a British-born person should appear in person before this Committee?
§ Mr. MAXTONWill the Home Secretary provide me with facilities to see Glasgow deportees, in their places of internment., during the coming week-end?
§ Mr. SPEAKERNo notice has been given of that Question. That is a Supplementary Question.
§ Mr. MAXTONI put it to you, Sir, that you should not protect the Home Secretary.
§ Mr. SPEAKERrose—
§ Mr. KIRKWOODThe right hon. Gentleman was going to answer it.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member (Mr. Kirkwood) must not stand at the same time that I am standing.
§ Mr. MAXTONAm I in order, Sir—since the Home Secretary is not in a position to give me these facilities—in applying to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Scotland and in asking if he will see that I have an opportunity of seeing my constituents at the week-end in Dublin?
§ Captain ELLIOT (Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, Scotland)I think it is obvious to the whole House that it is quite impossible for me to give a decision on a question like that, at 15 seconds' notice, such as I have had to-day.
Mr. MacDONALDArising out of that answer, have we not had a pledge from the right hon. Gentleman that the legal advisers of these deportees and their friends are to be allowed to see them?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI think I gave that; answer yesterday.
§ Mr. J. JONESWill the right hon. Gentleman appoint a Committee of Members of this House, who are interested, to go and see them?
§ Mr. MAXTONCan I take it, Mr. Speaker, from the reply of the right hon. Gentleman, that "legal advisers and friends" includes Parliamentary representatives, and would apply to me in this particular case?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI cannot give as answer without considering that.
§ Mr. SAKLATVALA(by Private Notice) asked the Home Secretary whether he has received an assurance from the Irish Free State Government that the persons arrested and deported to Ireland are sent there for internment only, and that prior to their release and return to this country, no charge will be made against them rendering these persons liable to trial and sentence?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANYes, Sir. As I explained on Monday last, nothing more than internment is proposed at present. If it should be desired later to proceed against any of the persons concerned on specific charges, the assent of His Majesty's Government would first be obtained, and the subsequent procedure 1766 would be that provided by the Indictable Offences Act.
§ Mr. J. JONESIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of these people, those I know in London particularly—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]— I know them and I am proud of it—are men and women occupying responsible positions. Is it not better if you cannot try them here to expedite their trial there, and not, to have them hanging on for months without getting an opportunity of trial?
§ Mr. SAKLATVALAWill the Home Secretary make clear as to whore that trial is to take place which is forecasted to take place subsequently?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANThat depends on where the offence has been committed.
§ Mr. SAKLATVALADoes the Act provide for the place where they can be tried? Under the Act can they be tried outside Great Britain if their offence was committed in Great Britain?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI am not quite sure to what Act the hon. Gentleman is referring.
§ Mr. W. THORNEIf anyone can prove that he is British and born in England, will he have a chance of being tried in England?
§ Mr. PRINGLECan the right hon. Gentleman say whether any of these men and women deported from this country are liable to be tried by court martial by the Free State Army in Ireland?
§ Mr. SAKLATVALAMay I have an answer to my question?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANIt depends on the place where the offence was committed.
§ Mr. W. THORNEMay I have an answer to my question?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANCertainly. I am not certain they will be tried at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] But if the hon. Member means will they be heard by the Advisory Committee, I shall certainly make representations in that sense to the Committee.
§ Mr. W. THORNEThe right hon. Gentleman says he does not know 1767 whether they will be tried. Then in the name of common sense what have they been "pinched" for?
§ Mr. NEIL MACLEANThe Home Secretary says that the individuals who have been deported will, if they are to be tried, be tried in the country where the offence took place. Will he state whether it is not the case that all these individuals have been arrested under a charge of conspiring in this country against the Irish Free State, and in that case will he inform the House what was the sense of deporting them to another country instead of trying them in this?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI think it would be unsatisfactory if I were to try to give, offhand, an answer to a long question like that. [Interruption.] This is a very serious question, and if hon. Members who want an answer will kindly put down any questions they wish, I shall be glad to reply.
§ Mr. McENTEEIn view of the in- ability of the right hon. Gentleman to give us any information in reply to the question, can he tell us, in the case of these English-born subjects, if he will he prepared to admit them to bail until he makes up his mind?
§ Mr. LANSBURYI want to ask a categorical question. Will any of these persons who have been deported he allowed to appear in their own defence before the Advisory Committee as a matter of right?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI thought. I had already explained that I must leave that procedure to the Committee, but I am representing to the Committee that they will, I suppose, follow the precedent set by similar Committees.
§ Mr. BUCHANANMay I ask you a question, Mr. Speaker. I want your advice in this matter. I wish to move the Adjournment, owing to the unsatisfactory answer on the legal point by the Home Secretary. I wish to know if I am in order in doing so.
§ Mr. SPEAKERWe had the Adjournment moved on this question on Monday last.
§ Mr. BUCHANANBut. Sir, this is a different matter, this is a question of the place of trial and the legal jurisdiction over those people.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is the point which was raised.
§ Mr. PRINGLEHas not a new point arisen, in this respect, that to-day the home Secretary is unable to give us any clear answer as to the liability to trial of persons who have been deported from this country?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThere is perhaps this point—the question whether the persons of British birth will be allowed to appear. But I understand the Home Secretary to say that he is going to make representations to the Advisory Committee. What I would suggest is that on this point a question could be put, on Monday and I will not rule the matter out on the ground of time, if it be desired to raise the matter then.
§ Mr. BUCHANANMay I thank you for the answer in the first place. Secondly, may I ask you if I shall have the liberty, if the answer be unsatisfactory on Monday, to move the Adjournment then?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI say I will not take any objection on the ground of time.
§ Mr. LANSBURYI wish to ask the Home Secretary a question, of which I have given hint Private Notice, namely, whether his attention has been called to the arrest and deportation to Ireland of Miss Barrett, lately residing at 24. Campbell Road, Bow, and Miss Kathleen Brooks, lately residing at Whitehall Court, Highgate; whether he is aware that Miss Barrett and her father and mother were all born in this country, and are consequently British citizens, and since the signing of the Peace Treaty between England and Ireland she has taken no part- in any agitation either against the British or the Free State Government; and whether he is aware that Miss Kathleen Brooks is also an English-born citizen, who at the time of her arrest was in company with her sister; that the two ladies, being informed by the police officers that their orders were to arrest Miss M. Brooks, but as they did not know which was M. Brooks, the ladies themselves should decide which should be taken; whether Kathleen 1769 volunteered to be arrested because her sister is suffering from illness; whether also he is aware that the warrants served on these ladies are dated 7th March and were served on 11th March; that consequently four days of the time allowed for appeal had elapsed and whether under all the circumstances, and in order to restore public confidence, the Home. Secretary will ask the Free State Government to release these ladies forthwith and return them without delay to this country?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI only made the orders for the arrest and internment of these ladies on being satisfied that there were good reasons for so doing. [An HON. MEMBER "Which one!"] The lady who has been arrested. If they desire to appeal against the provisions of the Orders, it is open to them to make representations to me to be laid before the Advisory Committee. Such representation is required to be made, not as suggested in the question, within seven days from the date of the Orders, but within seven days from the date on which the Orders were served on them, and I have no doubt that the Committee would grant any reasonable extension of time. I may add that I am satisfied that the Miss Brooks who was arrested is the lady in respect of whom the Order was made.
§ Mr. LANSBURYDoes the right hon. Gentleman contradict the statement that the police officers admitted to these ladies that they did not know which of them they wished to arrest, and that the ladies had to choose which one should be arrested. Is that the method by which the: Criminal Investigation Department caries out its duties?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANMy information is lime the lady they have arrested is the one they intended to arrest.
§ Mr. SAKLATVALAIs the Home Secretary's conviction that the lady arrested is the right person based on the fact that, on Monday afternoon, two policemen were inside the house when a letter was delivered by a postman simply addressed "Miss M. Brooks" and was taken away by the policemen as a proof of there being a Miss M. Brooks?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANThis is the first time I have heard of that.
§ Mr. LANSBURYDoes the right hon. Gentleman deny the statement that the 1770 police did not know which of these ladies they were sent to arrest?
§ Sir ALFRED BUTTMight I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether in fact the right lady has been arrested, and further whether it is not a fact that, before these arrests were made, he had investigated the cases and if he had left these people loose we were risking having assassinations in this country?
§ Mr. BRIDGEMANI have made inquiries, and my information does not tally with the information of the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury).
§ Mr. LANSBURYWill you deny the statement?