§ For the purposes of any election under this Act the powers, duties, and rights conferred upon a candidate, agent, or returning officer by The Extension of Polling Flours Act, 1913, shall apply as if the election were a Parliamentary election.—[Mr. Neil Maclean.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a Second time."—[Mr. Neil Maclean.]
§ Question again proposed.
§ Captain ELLIOTMay I ask the indulgence of the House in the temporary absence of the Solicitor-General for Scotland—
§ Mr. MACLEANMay I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman if there is any idea of the Solicitor-General accepting the Amendment which has been moved from this side of the House, or, if not, if there is any other method they are prepared to put forward in substitution of our Amendment which may meet us in the claims we are making?
§ Captain ELLIOTThere was a new Clause moved from the front Opposition Bench with regard to the hours of polling in municipal elections in Scotland, and it was decided to adjourn the Debate so that investigation could be conducted by the Scottish Office with regard to the position of local authorities whether they did or did not desire an extension of the hours. The Solicitor-General, after making inquiries, came to the conclusion that same concession should be made in 1194 this matter, and I understand he has a solution to propose which it is hoped will meet the views of hon. Members in other parts of the Douse who urge this upon us.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND (Mr. F. C. Thomson)I must apologise to the Douse for being a moment or two late, owing to the Bill having come on unexpectedly. When we were discussing it last week, a new Clause was proposed by the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. N. Maclean) to apply to municipal elections in Scotland the same law as applies to Parliamentary Elections—the Extension of Polling Hours Act of 1913. I indicated that, so far as I was able to ascertain it, municipal opinion in Scotland is against this proposal. This Bill is the outcome of a conference of the leading municipalities in Scotland, and was introduced some time ago in the Douse of Lords, and never until the other day did we hear any suggestion made that there should be an extension of polling hours in municipal elections. On the Second Reading no mention was made of any such proposal, nor was there any proposal on the Paper for the Committee stage. It was raised by an hon. Member at the very close of the Committee stage. It is very obvious that one was left with little time to consult municipal opinion in Scotland. I have, however, got into touch with the Convention of Royal Burghs, as representing Scottish municipal opinion, and ascertained that as far as they were concerned they thought there was no occasion for an extension of hours for poling at municipal elections. On considering the matter, I thought it might be possible to agree to a Clause which would provide that if the council of a burgh expressed themselves by resolution as in favour of their being an extension of the hours of polling up to the limit allowed for Parliamentary elections, that is, an hour in the morning from 7 to 8, and an hour in the evening from 8 to 9, they should have power under the law to extend the hours.
That seemed to me to be a reasonable proposal, and I put it forward to the hon. Member for Govan this afternoon, but with great candour and frankness he told me that it did not in any way meet what he desired. What he wishes is the application of a Parliamentary rule, so that 1195 any candidate can by application by him self or through his agent obtain an extension of the polling hours for an hour in the morning and an hour at night. I thought that I was meeting any desire that there might be in Scotland—but so far as I can ascertain it from the municipalities there is none,—by proposing that a town council should have power by resolution to extend the hours of polling My hon. Friend has told me that that does not in any way meet his point.
I would point out to my hon. Friend that his proposed Clause has very serious drawbacks. It would enable one candidate in a municipal election, for instance, in the City of Glasgow, where there are 37 wards, to ask for an extension of the polling hours and to impose that extension on all the other candidates. It would either mean that, or you would have different hours of polling in different wards in the city. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] That would involve great confusion at municipal elections. The town clerk of Edinburgh, the Bills Committee of the Aberdeen Town Council, and the town clerk of Dundee, have expressed their strong disapproval of that proposal. I think it must be obvious to hon. Members that if you have in one ward of a large city polling from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m., in another ward polling from 7 a.m. to 9 p.m., and in another ward polling from 8 a.m. to 9 p.m., you would have very great confusion. That, would not be a practicable or workable proposal.
10.0 P.M.
I have got into touch with municipal opinion in Scotland. I have approached the Convention. They were not able to have a meeting, but the leading officials and the chairmen of the different committees have been consulted, and as far as the Convention and those in touch with the opinion of the Convention are aware, there is an almost unanimous feeling among the burghs against the proposed new Clause. On the last occasion my hon. Friend thought that my allusion to what happened in 1913 was out of date. On that occasion, 114 burghs sent in replies to the request of the Convention as to whether they thought any extension of polling hours were desirable, and all but five were opposed to the change. Of the five, two expressed no view, and only three burghs expressed themselves in 1196 favour of the change. At that time, a good many of the smaller burghs stated that they thought a town council ought to have power to restrict the hours. They thought that in small burghs the hours from 10 to six were enough, and that the present hours imposed a considerable hardship on officials and clerks without any good purpose being served With regard to Edinburgh, I find that this proposal to apply the Parliamentary rule to municipal elections was considered by the city council early this year. It came up when they were considering this Bill, and they unanimously turned the proposal down. That is a significant thing. In Edinburgh it was felt that there is sufficient time for polling between 8 a.m. and 8 p.m. In the years before the War there was a considerable rush between 7 p.m. and 8 p.m., but since the War the heaviest hours of polling have been between 5 p.m. and 7 p.m. It must be remembered that, fortunately, the hours of work are not so long, and there is more opportunity for polling earlier than before. That is a point that has been made not only in Edinburgh but by other municipalities. It is made by the Town Clerk of Glasgow and also by the Town Council of Paisley. If you extend the hours of polling, it means that the counting has to be done at a later hour, and the result may not be declared until the following day. It means a very long day for the presiding officers and the poll clerks—a 14-hour day. [HON. MEMBERS: "Once a year!"] It means a long and harassing day. At the last Parliamentary election very little advantage was taken of the extension in those constituencies where the hours were extended.
Passing now from Edinburgh to Glasgow, it has not been possible in the short time for the council as a whole to consider this matter, but it has been considered by the Parliamentary Bills Committee, and they disapproved of my hon. Friend's proposal by 15 votes to seven. Among the arguments that influenced them was the small advantage taken of the additional hour in the case of the Parliamentary elections, also the easier working hours in operation which make it easier to poll before 8 p.m., and, further, the undesirability of extending the hours 1197 over which the presiding officers and poll clerks are required to be on duty. Now I pass to Aberdeen. I am sorry to trouble the Douse with all these details, but I wish to establish that municipal opinion in Scotland does not desire this change. The matter, was considered by the Bills Committee of the Aberdeen Town Council, and they said that if any change is made in the law it should only be in the direction which I have indicated—that the town council might by resolution, if they wished, have power to extend the hours. In Dundee they have not been able to have a meeting of the town council, but the town clerk says that no doubt opinion will be divided on the point, but he sees no reason for the change. He points out, as a drawback to the proposal, that it means that one candidate would be able to alter the hours in a city so that the election would be held in different wards at different times, and he expresses a strong view against that proposal. He again says that if there is any change it should be in the direction of allowing the town council by resolution to extend the hours. The Paisley Town Council met and were strongly opposed to any extension of the polling hours. They think it unnecessary on the ground that I have already given.
§ Mr. MACLEANWhat were the figures?
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLANDI cannot give the figures. I am told that the town council were strongly opposed to the present Amendment. They met on the 26th July. The Association of County Councils have not had a meeting, but those who were consulted were strongly opposed to the proposal. In 1913 they took up an attitude of opposition, and those who were now consulted had no reason to believe that there has been any change since that date. My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. A. Shaw) has been written to by the town council of that unfortunate borough. The town clerk has had communications with all councillors whom he has been able to meet, and he says that he finds that the opinion of the majority is that the hours should remain as they are at present. I have had a telegram from the town clerk of Ayr saying that the majority of the councillors of Ayr are against any extension of polling hours. There is a similar telegram 1198 from Troon. Not a single word has been said to me in favour of the proposal. I may say, with great confidence that, in the short time at my disposal, I have done all I could to consult the municipal opinion in Scotland and I find it strongly opposed to any such change.
§ Mr. MACLEANWill the hon. and learned Gentleman be good enough to give to the Douse the terms of the compromise which he has offered?
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLANDI told my hon. Friend this afternoon, and be indicated that he was not willing to consider it. It provided that the Town Councils (Scotland) Act, 1900, should have effect as if the following proviso were added to the end thereof.
Provided always that where a council are satisfied that it is necessary in order to afford to all electors such reasonable facilities for voting as are practicable in the circumstances, they may by resolution, proposed not later than one month before the issue in any year of the notice referred to in Section 42, resolve to keep open the poll so as not to commence earlier than seven o'clock in the forenoon and not keep open later than nine o'clock in the afternoon.
§ Mr. MACLEANI congratulate the hon. and learned Gentleman on his zeal in replying to obtain the views of Scottish municipalities in regard to the proposed Amendment. With the exception, however, of Paisley none of them have held a meeting of the council.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLANDThe Town Council of Edinburgh discussed the proposal this year, and unanimously decided against any extension.
§ Mr. MACLEANMembers from the south-west of Scotland think that Edinburgh does not count. I was going to refer to Edinburgh later on. Of the municipalities with which the hon. and learned Gentleman has been able to get in touch, Paisley is the only one whose corporation has held a meeting. The opinions in the other cases are mainly opinions given by town clerks and officials.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLANDIn Glasgow the Parliamentary Bills Committee and in Aberdeen the Bills Committee decided against it.
§ Mr. MACLEANThat is not the town council itself. Even in the case of Glasgow, one-third of the Parliamentary Bills Committee was in favour of the Amendment, and if it were brought before the town council, if defeated at all, it would have been defeated by only four or five votes. The present Labour representation on -the Glasgow Corporation numbers 44. The hon. and learned Gentleman complains that this Amendment was sprung upon him in Grand Committee, and that he received no notification on Second Reading of any intention to move this Amendment, but he will also remember that he himself was of opinion that municipalities a-leady possessed the powers for which we are asking, and his own statement to this effect in the Grand Committee prevented Scottish Members from forcing this matter to a Division. The right hon. Gentleman wound up his statement, when it was pointed out by various Members of the Committee that those powers were not possessed under the previous Act, by saying that he would look into the matter, and, if he found that those powers were not already existing, he would see what he could do on the Report stage. We withdrew our opposition on that understanding. When the Report stage came on there was nothing down in the name of the Government to indicate that the hon. and learned Gentleman had given the matter any consideration. Consequently we had to move, but now we find that he has admitted that the powers which he maintained were already in existence under previous Acts of Parliament do not exist. I am glad, at least, that the hon. and learned Gentleman has been prepared to come forward with a compromise, and that he is prepared to give to the municipalities the power to say that within the boundaries of their municipalities they will extend the hours of polling.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLANDAs I said, the time has been very short, and I put it at the first opportunity to my hon. Friend this afternoon, and he told me that the Clause would in no way meet his desires. Of course, as he knows, a new Clause cannot be moved on the Report stage unless it has been put on the Paper. If my hon. Friend had stated that he would accept it, the matter would have been different, but he indicated to me, 1200 quite clearly, that it would not meet the case at all. My hon. Friend is not quite right in saying that the matter would have gone to a Division in the Committee. There was no Amendment before the Committee at that time. It had been ruled out of Order, and the Question had been put by the Chairman. The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) had got up after the Chairman had put the Question, and I was particularly anxious that he should not feel that he had not a full opportunity of making his point. I intervened in the matter somewhat irrelevantly, and a discussion occurred which would not have taken place. Had I not been particularly desirous to give an opportunity to the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs—hon. Members will bear me out in that—the discussion would not have taken place.
§ Mr. MACLEANThe Amendment was written out, and handed in in manuscript form. A copy was sent to the Solicitor-General for Scotland, another copy was given to the Chairman, and another copy was retained by the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs and myself. The Amendment was put forward in proper Order, and was read out by the Chairman. That, however, is not the point. The point is that the present compromise was offered when the hon. and learned Gentleman saw me to-day, and I could not have put it down on the Paper. I could not act without my colleagues in this matter, and give a definite statement to the Solicitor-General that I could accept the compromise he was offering. I had to consult those acting with me, and other Scottish hon. Members. It was therefore impossible to give him a definite reply. It was impossible, when I was stopped in the Lobby at, roughly, about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and asked if I could accept a particular thing, without having seen anyone else, to give a statement that I was prepared to accept it. As a matter of fact, the compromise could be as easily put before the House at the present moment as it could have been then. If it is not on the Paper now, it could be put on the Paper to-night. If the hon. and learned Gentleman were willing to offer a compromise at 3 o'clock this afternoon, it can just as easily be offered now.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLANDThe difficulty is that the new Clause is not on the Paper, and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, a new Clause cannot be moved on the Report stage unless it is on the Paper. If my hon. Friends will give me a firm guarantee that my new Clause will go through without opposition to-morrow, and that the Bill will go through in five minutes, I am perfectly ready to put the new Clause on the Paper.
§ Mr. MACLEANIn those circumstances, I am quite prepared to withdraw the new Clause which stands in my name and that of my colleagues. On the distinct understanding that it is put on the Paper to-morrow, we on this side will not offer any opposition to the compromise. That is not all that we want, however. The point ought really to be considered by the Solicitor-General that, where we have candidates who are standing for municipal elections, their requisition should, at least, have some weight with the town council when they are deciding an application for an extension of the voting. The candidates themselves should be able to put before the town council applications for extension.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLANDI must have a firm guarantee that the hon. Member and his Friends will accept my Clause, and he must not seek by any riders to it or any glosses upon it to get his own Clause in by another way. I must have a definite guarantee that the new Clause will be unopposed by any section of the Scottish Members.
§ Mr. MACLEANI am not putting this proposal forward as a rider to the hon. and learned Gentleman's Clause, nor do I intend it in any way to depreciate any guarantee I have given. The Amendment would mean that certain candidates could make application for an extension in the wards which they were contesting. In other wards where no such application was made, the hours would not be extended, and consequently you would have in a municipal election certain wards with extensions and certain wards without extensions. I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will consider that point, but if he cannot, I am prepared to accept the compromise he has offered. I only put it 1202 for his consideration that the candidates should have the right to make representations, if not applications, and then, If the town council decided against them, it would be inoperative, but if the town council decided in favour of them, the extension would prevail for the whole municipality. I merely ask the hon. and learned Member if he is prepared to put that into the compromise and no opposition will be offered tomorrow to the compromise put forward.
Major-General Sir R. HUTCHISONI think the compromise offered by the hon. and learned Gentleman is quite fair, namely, that the town council should have the power to extend by resolution the hours in case they desire to do so. The chaos which would be created if a single candidate asked for and obtained an extension for one ward would be unjustified and would involve different times for the recording of votes in the different wards. I ask hon. Members above the Gangway to accept the proposals of the Solicitor-General for Scotland, and so far as my Friends are concerned, I am prepared to say that if the hon. and learned Gentleman puts clown the Amendment to-morrow, we will not oppose it.
§ Mr. DUNCAN GRAHAMrose—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member has already spoken on this Clause.
§ Mr. GRAHAMWe were then dealing with another Question, Sir. We are dealing with the compromise which has been offered.
§ Mr. SPEAKERWe are dealing with the New Clause, and only the Mover of the Clause is entitled to speak more than once.
§ Mr. GRAHAMMay I be allowed to put a question? I am personally favourable to accepting a compromise, but I wish to know if it will apply to the county councils and parish councils in the same way as to the town councils?
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLANDI wish it made perfectly clear that this Bill must go through tomorrow as an unopposed Measure, otherwise it will be lost. It is a very essential Bill, for which the town councils of Scotland have been pressing, and it contains a number of useful Amendments of 1203 the law in relation to the machinery of municipal elections. These elections will take place in November and if we do not get the Bill to-morrow as an agreed Measure it will, as I say, be lost, so it must be thoroughly understood that this Clause is to be accepted.
§ Mr. GRAHAMMay I have an answer to my question?
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLANDI beg the hon. Member's pardon. It applies to the county councils and the parish councils as well.
§ Mr. MACLEANIf the hon. Gentleman is prepared to move the Adjournment of the Debate till to-morrow, I think I can guarantee him the unopposed passage of the Bill, at least from our side of the House.
§ Mr. SPEAKERWould not the proper procedure be for the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean) to withdraw his Clause, then for the Solicitor-General for Scotland to put down this new Clause on the Paper for to-morrow, and, after the withdrawal of the present Clause, for him to move the Adjournment of the further consideration of the Bill?
§ Mr. MACLEANI ask leave to withdraw my new Clause.
§ Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Motion made, and Question, "That further Consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned," put, and agreed to.—[The Solicitor-General for Scotland.]
§ Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be further considered To-morrow.