HC Deb 25 July 1923 vol 167 cc473-7

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Supplementary Estimates for New Services may be considered in Committee of Supply, and that Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven o'clock."—[The Prime Minister.]


On a point of Order. There are certain New Services, upon which the Committee should have an opportunity of giving a Vote. Will the Vote for these New Services be given separately from the Classes?


I cannot answer that on the spur of the moment. Perhaps the hon. Member will consult the Chairman of Ways and Means.

Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY

Is it not a rule—I do not know that it is an Order of the House, but is it not an accepted principle—that New Services

shall in any case be debated in the House, or that an opportunity shall be given for a Debate? I think that has been ruled in the last Parliament, and may I ask your guidance on that question, Mr. Speaker?


These Services were submitted for consideration last week. They have complied with the Standing Order in that respect.

Captain BENN

Can you give any guidance, Sir, as to the interpretation of the said Standing Order, which has more than once been put to the Chair? Do you consider that, when the Standing Order says that these New Services must be submitted to the Committee of Supply more than three days before the close of the Committee, that Standing Order is complied with when a Paper is published and no Debate whatever takes place?


I remember that question being put for about 23 years, and I do not think I am in a position to change the answer which my predecessors have given to it.

Question put.

The House divided: Ayes, 225; Noes, 149.

Division No.309.] AYES 3.50 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Butler, H. M. (Leeds, North) Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfrey,
Ainsworth, Captain Charles Butt, Sir Alfred Fawkes, Major F. H.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Cadogan, Major Edward Fermor-Hesketh, Major T.
Apsley, Lord Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Flanagan, W.H.
Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. Sir Martin Cautley, Henry Strother Ford, Patrick Johnston
Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Fredrick W. Cayzer, Sir C.(Chester, City) Forestier-Walker, L.
Astor, Viscountess Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn(Aston) Fraser, Major Sir Keith
Baird, Rt. Hon. Sir John Lawrence Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Furness, G. J.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood) Garland, C. S.
Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Chapman, Sir S. Gaunt, Rear-Admiral Sir Guy R.
Barlow, Rt. Hon. Sir Montague Clarry, Reginald George Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Barnett, Major Richard W. Clayton, G. C. Goff, Sir R. Park
Barnston, Major Harry Cobb, Sir Cyril Greenwood, William (Stockport)
Becker, Harry Cohen, Major J. Brunel Gretton, Colonel John
Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Gwynne, Rupert S.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Cope, Major William Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff. South) Halstead, Major D.
Berry, Sir George Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Hamilton, Sir George C. (Altrincham)
Betterton, Henry B. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent)
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Harvey, Major S. E.
Blades, Sir George Rowland Curzon, Captain Viscount Hay Major T. W. (Norfolk, South),
Blundell, F. N. Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead) Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hennessy, Major J. R. G.
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Herbert, S. (Scarborough)
Brass, Captain W. Doyle, N. Grattan Hewett, Sir J. P.
Brassey, Sir Leonard Edmondson, Major A. J. Hiley, Sir Ernest
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Ednam, Viscount Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.
Brittain, Sir Harry Elliot, Captain Walter E. (Lanark) Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)
Brown, Major D. C. (Hexham) Ellis, R. G. Hood, Sir Joseph
Brown, Brig.-Gen. Clifton (Newbury) Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Hopkins, John W. W.
Bruford, R. Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley'
Buckingham, Sir H. Erskine-Bolst, Captain C. Howard, Capt. D. (Cumberland, N.).
Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Evans, Capt. H. Arthur (Leicester, E.) Howard-Bury, Lieut.-Col. C. K.
Burn, Colonel Sir Charles Rosdew Eyres-Monsell, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. M. Hughes, Collingwood
Butcher, Sir John George Falcon, Captain Michael Hume, G. H.
Hurd, Percy A. Newson, Sir Percy Wilson Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Hurst, Gerald B. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Hutchison, G. A. C. (Midlothian, N.) Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster) Simpson-Hinchliffe, W. A.
Hutchison, W. (Kelvingrove, N.) Nicholson, William G.(Petersfield) Skelton, A. N.
Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Nield, Sir Herbert Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Norman, Major t. Hon. Sir Henry Somerville, Daniel (Barrow-in-Furness)
Jodrell, Sir Neville Paul Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.
Joynson-Hicks, Sir William O'Neill, t. Hon. Hugh Stanley, Lord
King, Capt. Henry Douglas Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Stewart, Gershom (Wirral)
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Parker, Owen (Kettering) Stockton, Sir Edwin Forsyth
Lamb, J. Q. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Stott, Lt.-Col. W. H.
Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Colonel G. R. Penny, Frederick George Stuart, Lord C. Crichton.
Lever, Sir Arthur L. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Lloyd-Greame, Rt. Hon. Sir Phillip Perkins, Colonel E. K. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid H.
Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Peto, Basil E. Sutherland, Rt. Hon. Sir William
Lorden, John William Pielou, D. P. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Lorimer, H.D. Pilditch, Sir Philip Thomson, F. C.(Aberdeen, South)
Loyd, Arthur Thomas (Abingdon) Privet, F. J. Titchfield, Marquess of
Lumley, L. R. Raeburn, Sir William H. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Raine, W. Turton, Edmund Russborough
Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm Rankin, Captain James Stuart Wallace, Captain E.
McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Rawlinson, t. Hon. John Fredk. Peel Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)
Makins, Brigadier-General E. Rawson, Lieut.-Com. A. C. Watson, Capt. J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Rees, Sir Beddoe Weston, Colonel John Wakefield
Margesson, H. D. R. Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington) Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.
Mason, Lieut.-Col. C. K. Remnant, Sir James White, Lt.-Col. G. D. (Southport)
Mercer, Colonel H. Reynolds, W. G. W. Wilson, Col. M. J.(Richmond)
Milne, J. S. Wardlaw Rhodes, Lieut.-Col. J. P. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Mitchell, W. F. (Saffron Walden) Richardson, Lt.-Col. Sir P. (Chertsey) Winterton, Earl
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Robertson-Despencer, Major(Islgtn, W) Wise, Frederick
Molloy, Major L. G. S. Rogerson, Capt. J. E. Wolmer, Viscount
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)
Morning, Captain Algernon H. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L..
Morrison, Hugh (Wilts, Salisbury) Russell-Wells, Sir Sydney Yate, Colonel Sir Charles Edward
Morrison-Bell, Major Sir A. C. (Honiton) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Murchison, C. K. Sanderson, Sir Frank B. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel Leslie Wilson and Celonel the Rt. Hon. G. A. Gibbs.
Nall, Major Joseph Sandon, Lord
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Adams, D. Greenall, T. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. William Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) March, S.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Martin, F. (Aberd'n & Kinc'd'ne, E.)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro' Grundy, T. W. Middleton, G.
Ammon, Charles George Guthrie, Thomas Maule Millar, J. D.
Asquith, t. Hon. Herbert Henry Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Morel, E. D.
Attlee, C. R. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Morris, Harold
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Barnes, A. Hancock, John George Mosley, Oswald
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff) Harbord, Arthur Muir, John W.
Batey, Joseph Hardie, George D. Murnin, H.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Hay, Captain J. P. (Cathcart) Murray, Hon. A. C. (Aberdeen)
Berkeley, Captain Reginald Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (N'castle, E.) Murray, R. (Renfrew, Western)
Bonwick, A. Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Newbold, J. T. W.
Brotherton, J. Herriotts, J. Oliver, George Harold
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hill, A. Paling, W.
Buckle, J. Hinds, John Parker, H. (Hanley)
Burgess, S. Hirst, G. H. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Burnie, Major J. (Bootle) Hodge, t. Hon. John Pattinson, R. (Grantham)
Buxton, Charles (Accrington) Hodge, Lieut.-Col. J. P. (Preston) Ponsonby, Arthur
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Hogge, James Myles Potts, John S.
Cape, Thomas Hutchison, Sir R. (Kirkcaldy) Pringle, W. M. R.
Chapple, W. A. Irving, Dan Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Charleton, H. C. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Ritson, J.
Clarke, Sir E. C. John, William (Rhondda, West) Roberts, C. H. (Derby)
Collison, Levi Johnstone, Harcourt (Willesden, East) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)
Cowan, D. M.(Scottish Universities) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Robinson, W. C. (York, Elland)
Davies, Evan (Ebbw Vale) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Royce, William Stapleton
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Salter. Dr. A.
Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Scrymgeour, E
Dudgeon, Major C. R. Jowett, F. W. (Bradford, East) Sexton, James
Duncan, C. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
Dunnico, H. Kenyon, Barnet Shinwell, Emanuel
Edmonds, G. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lassbury, George Simpson, J. Hope
Emlyn-Jones, J. E.(Dorset, N.) Lawson, John James Smith, T. (Pontefract)
Falconer, J. Leach, W. Snowden, Philip
Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Lee, F. Spencer, H. H. (Bradford, S.)
Foot, Isaac Linfield, F. C. Spoor, B. G.
Gardiner, James Lowth, T. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Lunn, William Sullivan, J.
Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) M'Entee, V. L. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)
Gray, Frank (Oxford) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Thorne. G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Tout, W. J. Wedgwood, Colonel Josiah C. Wilson, C. H.(Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Trevelyan, C. P. Weir, L. M. Wintringham, Margaret
Twist, H. Westwood, J. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
Wallhead, Richard C. White, H. G. (Birkenhead, E.) Wright, W.
Warne, G. H. Whiteley, W.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Williams, David (Swansea, E.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Phillipps and Sir A. Marshall.
Watts Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly).
Webb, Sidney Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)