NATIONALISATION OF MINES AND MINERALS BILL. (Hansard, 10 July 1923)

§ Mr. LANSBURY
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
I do so because I think the present condition of the industry leaves a great deal to be desired.

§ Mr. AMMON
I beg to second the Motion.

§ Lord E. PERCY
In the absence of my hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary for Mines (Lieut.-Colonel Lane-Fox)—

Captain BENN
Why is he absent?

§ Lord E. PERCY
My hon. and gallant Friend has not the same foresight as the hon. and gallant Member for Leith, who is always in his place. This is a Bill for the nationalisation of mines and minerals which the Government cannot support, and I do not think it should be read a second time, and at this hour of the night, without proper discussion.

§ Captain ELLIOT (Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, Scotland)
It would be ill befitting the dignity of this House that a Measure of such importance should be passed into law without more discussion than this Bill has received. The attitude of the House raises memories of other Debates in the last Parliament on various Measures brought forward in different parts of the House. Seldom or never have we had the House discussing a Measure of this first-class importance with that light-heartedness and carelessness which is more the privilege of those who enjoy a position of greater freedom and less responsibility. On the general question of the nationalisation of mines and minerals I do not think hon. Members opposite on the Labour Benches can be quite serious—[HON. MEMBERS: Oh!"]—in proposing that a Measure of this importance should be given a Second Reading in this House in five minutes' time, after the long and heated discussion which has taken place this afternoon. There are many points of substance and indeed of principle in this Measure. [An HON. MEMBER: Have you read the Bill?] I have read all these Bills. The Clauses in this Bill are legion, and when hon. 1318 Members go through the Amendments which I shall put down, hon. Members will realise the extent to which responsible discussion may go in a measure of this kind. It raises the general question of the nationalisation of mines and minerals, and it is one which cannot be judged fully at the moment; but we know that we are having experience in the matter, year after year, as to the extraordinary inefficiency and failure of the undertakings conducted on the lines of nationalisation. There is the case of Russia. The hon. Member opposite when he went there became a Noble Lord.

Captain BENN
On a point of Order. May I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to Standing Order No. 19, which deals with irrelevancy and tedious repetition, and I would ask whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite is not indulging in this?

§ Mr. SPEAKER
As for repetition, we have not had time for that yet. As for tediousness, the hon. and gallant Gentleman's own face is the best answer to that suggestion.

§ Captain ELLIOT
I am endeavouring to protect the rights of private Members, because this is a Bill which will have to be worked by bureaucracy, and it is a Measure such as we may expect hon. Members opposite to pass into law when they get the opportunity.

§ Mr. T. JOHNSTON
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

§ Captain ELLIOT
Important legislation of this kind will be rushed through under a Socialist administration. This Measure, for instance, of 23 Clauses has been moved in a speech lasting but a minute or two, formally seconded, and there has been no opportunity for discussion allowed to any hon. Member on this side of the House.

§ Mr. LANSBURY
It might be a Crimes Bill we are passing.

§ Captain ELLIOT
No doubt, new crimes will be created by this new legislation.

§ Mr. LANSBURY
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be 1319 now put," but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

§ Captain ELLIOT
Measures of this kind have been under discussion on more than one occasion in other countries. We have discussions going as far back as the ancient relics of China and Japan—

§ Mr. LANSBURY
And Peru!

§ Captain ELLIOT
And Peru, that State in which private enterprise was abolished, and consequently the State decayed.

§ Mr. EDE
, rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put, but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent and declined then to put the Question.

§ Captain ELLIOT
And as I was saying, Peru—