SUMMER TIME BILL [Lords].

HC Deb 14 June 1922 vol 155 cc465-507

Order for Second Reading read.

The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Shortt)

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This Bill is rendered necessary by the fact that the power by Order in Council to decree Summer Time will end this year. The Summer Time Act, 1916, gave power to make Orders in Council during the continuance of the War, and by the War Emergency Laws (Continuance) Act, 1920, the power was extended till the end of next August. Under those powers an Order was made for Summer Time this year, but unless some Act of Parliament is passed there will be no power to decree Summer Time in 1923. I am sure the House will agree that it is advisable, if possible, to do away with Orders in Council and to have a definite permanent decision of this House. Therefore there are two points to be considered in this Bill, first, whether Summer Time is to be made a permanent institution and, secondly, if it is, what are to be the dates that ought to be the rule. I do not want to go into the pros and cons of the question, they have been thrashed out on the Floor of the House many times, but I think I can say that the great preponderance of opinion in this country is in favour of Summer Time for some period at any rate. There are differences of opinion as to the period, but certainly a very large majority of people in the country are in favour of Summer Time for some period. A Departmental Committee reported in 1917 that they were unhesitatingly of opinion that the vast preponderance of opinion throughout Great Britain was enthusiastically in favour of Summer Time and of its renewal, not only as a war measure, but as a permanent institution. Since that time we have had at the Home Office resolutions in favour of the Bill from 286 local authorities, from all branches of the National Chamber of Trade, from 21 Chambers of Commerce, from 70 other trade associations and from 36 miscellaneous societies. That is a very large measure of support. Against it, undoubtedly, there is the agricultural interest, and we must face that fact. Whether, if we could curtail to a certain extent the period of Summer Time, the agricultural interest would be unanimously against it I very much doubt. I think it is the two ends of the period of time to which agriculture is opposed, but, taking the time as it stands at present, the agricultural interest have sent in objections to the Bill. Outside the agricultural interest there have been three local authorities, two small urban district councils, Normanton and Tarporley, and there have been seven other societies—labour bodies—most of them small, such as the Trades and Labour Councils of Barking, Barnstaple and Spen Valley, the Amalgamated Society of Woolworkers of Darlington, Northumberland Heath Women's Labour Section, the National Union of Agricultural Workers of Devonshire and Cornwall and the National Union of Vehicle Workers. That is the whole of the opposition we have had, as opposed to 28 local authorities, all the branches of the National Chamber of Trade, 21 Chambers of Commerce, 70 trades associations, and 36 miscellaneous societies. Therefore I think I am justified in saying that the measure of support for Summer Time in principle is that of a very large majority of the country.

The second question is the period of time. This year we have fixed the period of time in consultation with France and Belgium. Unfortunately, for reasons which it is not necessary for me to go into, it is impossible to enter into any permanent arrangement with France this year. France does not know what her future in regard to Summer Time is going to be. When we come to consider the period I am bound to say that I am very much impressed with the fact that it is idle to suggest that you cannot arrange the same period of Summer Time between say, the South of France and the North of England or Scotland. The climatic conditions and seasons of the year are so totally different that you cannot possibly arrange a period of Summer Time which might be perfectly workable in the South of France but would be most injurious certainly to the agricultural industry in the North of England and Scotland. The real reason for trying to make the two countries agree was for cross-Channel traffic and travelling purposes.

Mr. AMMON

The difficulty is in regard to the period. There was no objection to the hours.

Mr. SHORTT

It is the period I am referring to, and not the hours. The real question of difference is in regard to the month of April and month of September, and with regard to that I can only say that I have been very much impressed by the points put to me by those who represent the agricultural industry. They have been put to me most forcibly by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, and I know that they represent the large body of agricultural opinion in this country. I am quite prepared to agree that there should be some curtailment in the period as it exists this year. I do not think it, is possible, having regard to the interests of agriculture, to maintain the period as we have fixed it this year. I appreciate entirely that so far as September is concerned there will he great disappointment among a very large portion of the urban popula[...]ion if the period is curtailed; hut, at the same time, we must, if we are legislating in this way, try to strike a fair balance between the interests of a great industry like agriculture and the interests of the urban population, who are chiefly affected by the Act. I have come to the conclusion that we must have a curtailment of some character. Once we admit that there must be some curtailment, that becomes a Committee point.

I am going to ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading as it stands, with this clear acknowledgment on my part, and with a clear understanding on the part of the House that in giving the Bill a Second Reading the House is in no way pledging itself to the period set out in the Bill. After hearing the discussion on the Second Reading, and having the benefit of hearing what is said, we can between now and the Committee stage try to come to some arrangement between the urban interests, the interests of those who want more opportunity for recreation, amusement and pleasure in the evenings, and the agricultural interest, and try to arrive at a fair period for Summer Time. Therefore, I ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading on the clear understanding that that pledges nobody to the particular dates in the Bill, and that between now and the Committee stage we will endeavour to come to a fair arrangement between the conflicting interests. If we come to an arrangement, I will undertake to put down an Amendment to meet it; but if we have not come to an arrangement, I will endeavour to come to the best decision possible, with the help of my Department, and will put that down as an Amendment, so that the whole matter can be thrashed out. Having regard to the fact that I believe there is in this country a very large majority who wish Summer Time to be made a permanent institution, I ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading upon those terms.

Lieut.-Colonel MURRAY

I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words this House refuses to give its assent to a Bill which will inflict serious and continuing injury on the industry of agriculture. The right hon. Gentleman has laid emphasis on the large measure of support there is for Summer Time, but the somewhat indefinite character of the promise of consideration for the agricultural interests which fell from him make it necessary that I should emphasise the reasons for the opposition to Summer Time from the agricultural point of view. In moving this Motion I desire to impress upon the Government the fundamental fact that the agricultural community in this country is practically united in its opposition to Summer Time in its present form. There is a distinct reason for our opposition, and it is, that, despite the pious hopes of autocratic Governments, the sun refuses to submit to the dictates of man-made laws. Agricultural operations have to be conducted, in the main, not by the clock but by the sun. Nothing can alter that fact, and nothing that this Government, or any other Government, can do will make the sun appear above the horizon a moment earlier, or will remove the dew from the hay or corn at an earlier hour than nature decrees. It is on this simple and self-evident proposition that the objections of agriculturists to Summer Time are based.

The right hon. Gentleman said that this subject had been debated in this House very often, and that the pros and cons of Summer Time had been thrashed out time and again in this House. This is the first occasion on which the subject of Summer Time has been debated in this House since it came into operation in 1916. There have been debates prior to the time when Summer Time came into operation, but not since the Act was passed in 1916 which made Summer Time permanent for the period of the War and for three years thereafter. I suggest that all the predictions of agriculturists in 1916 and in the preceding years have been fully substantiated by subsequent events. What were those predictions? We began with the year 1909, when a Bill was introduced and a Select Committee was appointed, before which various gentlemen on behalf of the agricultural community gave evidence. There was the evidence of Mr. Christopher Middleton, who said that agriculturists generally, in fact, universally, were very much opposed to the proposals contained in the Bill, and that they considered that the Bill would cause them great inconvenience and a. good deal of loss at certain times of the year. A former Member of this House, an eminent agriculturist, Lord Bledisloe, gave evidence against the Bill. Then there was the hon. and gallant Member for the Rye Division of Sussex (Lieut.-Colonel Courthope), who moved the rejection of the Bill, as representing the Associated Chambers of Agriculture, composed of 150 agricultural organisations. There was complete unanimity on the part of those organisations as to the effect of Summer Time upon agriculture. Then Mr. George Nicholls, who was then a Member of the House, as representing the agricultural labourers, and the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. G. Edwards) also opposed it. The predictions then made have been justified by subsequent events.

Then we come to the Bill of 1916. A Resolution, approving of that Bill, was moved by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blackburn (Sir H. Norman), who delighted the House—I was not here at the time, but I have looked up his speech—with a speech in which he told the House the difference between sidereal time, mean solar time, apparent solar time, Irish time, Greenwich civil time, legal time, lighting-up time, and closing time, and referred to the hour-angle of the vernal equinox, the sundial, the imaginary motion of the sun. the celestial equator, and the negligible wobble of the earth on its axis. That was followed by a practical speech from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London, in which he showed that agriculture would be detrimentally affected by the Bill. Then came a speech by the then Home Secretary, now Sir Herbert Samuel, High Commissioner in Palestine, in which he said that the Government would not have dreamt of favouring this Measure or inviting the House to consider it unless it had reason to think that it was essentially advantageous for war purposes. That was the opinion of the Government of the day. I regret that the present Government has not seen fit to adopt a similar opinion. That is the history of Summer Time up to the year 1916. I have troubled the House with it in view of the fact that since 1916 there has been no Debate in this House upon the pros and eons of this Measure.

Since Summer Time has been in operation, how has it affected agriculture? Take, for instance, the case of arable farms. It is a truism to say that an hour in the late afternoon is the most valuable hour of the day. Summer Time takes away this hour and puts in its place a bad morning hour. In spring there are some kinds of work, such as seed sowing and harrowing, which are delayed until the morning frost disappears. Coming to the summer, when the morning dew often prevents hay-making operations until later in the day, there is a. valuable hour taken away. In the autumn dew and frost make early harvest work impossible. Sometimes the whole of the forenoon is lost, particularly in the month of September, when operations are seriously handicapped, and this often results in very serious loss. Then it can be shown that its effects are equally detrimental to farmers who are engaged in dairying. In spring it means generally from three to four weeks' extra work in artificial light, which involves extra cost of milk production. Again, in autumn, certainly in Scotland, it curtails the period in which farmers are able to keep cows lying out in the fields over night, as, owing to the darkness, it is difficult to gather them in from the fields in the early morning. This entails extra cost of feeding and extra cost of milk production.

I have here a long list of statements from agriculturists from all over Scotland stating their objections to Summer Time in its present form. I do not wish to weary the House by quoting them. There are some from the county which I have the honour to represent. There is a long statement from Berwickshire, where farmers have found its operations particularly hard, while from the men's point of view they are strongly opposed to Summer Time. From Aberdeenshire they write: It is all very well to tell the farmers to change from God's time to Lloyd George time. Agriculturists object to it for school reasons for the children. From Perthshire comes the statement that it is against the food production of this country. From Argyleshire is the statement, My experience of the Summer Time system is that I have to employ two more workmen during hay harvesting to accomplish the same work as under the old system. That is in the middle of the summer, too, during the hay harvest. From Kircud-bright: It has been suggested that farmers might work their farms by ordinary time, but this has been given a good trial and found quite impracticable. There are similar statements from Invernesshire. From Fifeshire there is the statement, It is all very good for sporting citizens to have a little longer light at night, but it is the foodstuffs of the people we agriculturists are raising in as good condition as we can. I am afraid that the sponsors of these things forget that. Then there is the Farmers' Union of East Lothian and Mid-Lothian who send forward objections, and from workers in Coventry comes the statement, A number of us indoor workers find ourselves being robbed of a number of hours of sleep during the longest days of the year. That goes to prove that it is not only agriculturists who view the operations of Summer Time with grave misgiving. These statements, coming as they do, from practical farmers, show that the objections of agriculturists to Summer Time in its present form are not based merely on sentiment or prejudice but on unshaken and unshakable facts which show that the system has been a serious handicap to the agricultural industry, especially in early summer and during the harvesting period. If proof were needed to substantiate that statement, it would be found in an article in the "Scotsman," a paper which generally supports His Majesty's Government. On 23rd February, 1922 the "Scotsman" said: Farmers are greatly alarmed at the Government's announcement that they propose to make daylight saving statutory. The paper added—and I commend this to the attention of the Home Secretary— Great damage was done in Scotland in securing the harvest, both last year and the previous year, owing to the Bill being in operation in the month of September. It seems to me a strange thing that so little consideration should have been given by the Government to this country's greatest industry, for that, indeed, it is. I could quote at great length statements from Coalition manifestoes and from speeches of the Prime Minister, such as one the right hon. Gentleman made on the Report stage of the Agriculture Bill, in November, 1920, in which he said: It is essential in the interests of national prosperity and safety that a strong step should be taken to increase the productivity of the land. The operation of Summer Time is a strong step, but a strong step in the wrong direction. I hope that no other strong steps of that kind will be taken by the Government. What is the position in which we find ourselves? Why has this Bill been introduced at all? Earlier in the year we expected the Bill to be proceeded with in the ordinary way, when we would have been in a position to state our objections to it. But suddenly, like a bomb from the sky, there came the famous Order in Council of 14th March, which imposed Summer Time for this year. The Home Secretary said the Bill was necessary because the powers he has end this year. I say that in all the circumstances this Bill is unnecessary, and particularly in view of what has fallen from the Home Secretary to-night and the consideration which he has promised to the whole question so far as agriculture in future is concerned. I believe I am correct in saying that this is probably the last year in which Summer Time will operate in France. In any event France has refused to make it permanent and has inserted a Clause in the French Bill limiting the operation to one year. Why cannot we do that? In the United States and in Canada, predominantly agricultural countries, I believe they have refused to adopt Summer Time at all. Why then should we proceed with this Bill? If the Bill be not passed, Summer Time will expire in August of this year. In that event a sigh of relief will go up from the agricultural community which will be heard throughout the length and breadth of the land.

The Home Secretary said that he was prepared to agree, on the Committee stage, to some curtailment of the period of operation of Summer Time. He asks the House to pass the Second Reading to-night on the strength of that promise. Speaking, if I may, for the moment on behalf of Scottish agriculture—I think I shall be supported in this by hon. Friends from Scotland on both sides of the House—we are grateful to the Home Secretary for having met us to that extent. But, none the less, I have found it necessary to lay before the right hon. Gentleman the facts as to the harmful effect that Summer Time has on the agricultural industry, in order that when he comes to consider a curtailment of the period he may not make that curtailment too short. I am not sure whether the House ought to pass this Bill on what the Home Secretary has said. I am not sure that his promise goes far enough. Why cannot he be more definite about it and say now that he is prepared to lop off the month of April at one end and the month of September at the other end? That might be a reasonable compromise which agriculturists could fairly he asked to accept. But I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is putting those of us who have the interests of agriculture at heart in quite a fair position when he asks us to pass the Second Reading to-night, not knowing exactly by what months the period of operation is to be curtailed. In these circumstances, hoping, as I did, that something more definite would have fallen from the right hon. Gentleman to-night, and still contending that this Bill is unnecessary arid that Summer Time is detrimental to the cause of food production, I move the Amendment standing in my name.

Mr. TOWNLEY

I beg to second the Amendment.

I do so because I hold the position of chairman of the Central and Associated Chamber of Agriculture for England, and because they are unani- mous in their wish for the rejection of the Measure. Whatever my private opinion might be in the matter, I am sure the House will agree that it is my duty to emphasise the feelings expressed by what is probably the most representative agricultural body in the country. Beyond that, I have also the assurance that the Farmers' Union, throughout all its branches, is in favour of the Amendment. I have not had an opportunity of obtaining a definite expression of opinion from the workers or the labourers' union. At the same time, we on the Chambers of Agriculture are very proud of the fact that we have a certain number of agricultural workers in our body. In that way we differ from other agricultural bodies. In introducing the Bill the Home Secretary has gone a considerable way towards meeting us —not so far as we should have liked, because, naturally, all connected with agriculture, being men of common sense, would prefer to see the sun rule rather than the Treasury Bench. One remark fell from the right hon. Gentleman which, whatever my previous opinions of the Bill might have been, made me more firm in opposition to it. It was that France does not know her future policy on the Bill, and that it is not possible to arrange as between the South of France and the North of Great Britain in this matter. Undoubtedly it is not possible to arrange that the same seasons should prevail in the South of France and in the North of Great Britain. Is not that distinct evidence that, it is not possible to interfere with the laws of nature, and that it would be infinitely better to leave the sun to rule the world, as it will, whatever interference it may receive from the right hon. Gentleman, or even from this House? When this Measure was first, brought in it was called "Summer Time," hut it actually came into force early in April, and on that occasion we had the most serious frosts we had ever experienced at that time of the year. The sun apparently resented this attack upon its prerogative. To-day we have this Bill put down, and there has been a serious drop in the temperature. It looks as though once again the sun is enforcing its rights against the Treasury Bench.

The Home Secretary referred to the inquiries which were held into this matter in 1916 and 1917. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that those were years during the War when all connected with agriculture were only too anxious to put their own feelings upon one side and to fall in with what was considered to be the advantage of the country at that time in regard to the saving of fuel and light. They were prepared to sacrifice their own interests in favour of the country's interests, and I may say in passing they are always in favour of putting the country's interests first, but the broad principle of this Measure is that it is in favour of pleasure as against business. Agriculture is the greatest business of this country, and it has never been suggested that Summer Time is going to improve that business. It is suggested on all hands that it will improve holidays and possibly improve the health of the country. But I maintain it is of importance rather to pleasure, as opposed to business, and I contend it is from the business point of view we should look at it. I do not wish to follow the hon. and gallant Member, who so ably moved the Amendment, into all the details he has given to the House. He has drawn attention to the fact that a great hardship—I prefer to use the words "a great damage"—will be inflicted upon farmers by this additional hour in the morning. Probably hon. Members do not know what is the effect of dew, but we farmers know perfectly well that it is a most disastrous thing for us to harrow or roll crops when the dew is upon them. No investigations have so far been made as to what is the action of dew, and what damage we may suffer in this way, but it is considerable and causes great inconvenience. I will show the House how this inconvenience not only affects business, but sometimes affects pleasure, also. Summer Time came into force on the first Sunday in April. A certain gentleman who is well known to this House went on that occasion to play golf. [HON. MEMBERS: "On Sunday!"] I cannot say for certain whether it was Sunday or Monday, but I hope he was attending to his business in this House on the Monday. He caught his train an hour earlier, but when he got to the golf course, he was unable to play for an hour because of the heavy dew on the links.

9.0 P.M.

That shows how it affected pleasure, and when it affected pleasure in that way, I am sure even hon. Members who are not personally acquainted with farming will realise how it affects the business of agriculture. It is of the greatest inconvenience to the farmers that they should have to wait an hour before they can harrow their wheat, and I repeat that we should look on this as a matter of business against pleasure. As regards the curtailment of the period, we are told to wait until the Committee stage before we know what is going to happen. I welcome what the Home Secretary said, and I think it has gone a long way towards removing the agricultural objection for the time being. We thoroughly realise that agriculture must bow to the wish of the majority, and if it can be shown that this Measure is for the benefit of the community in general in regard to health, we should be willing to make concessions. We shall not know that, however, until we have had some years' experience, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he cannot go one step further and make this an annual Act. Then we should have a much better opportunity of altering it, or stopping it, than if we had to bring in a repealing Measure. I am sure the Government does not wish to go in for any further repealing of Measures which they have passed. They must be getting rather sick of that. If we get that promise from the Home Secretary I assure him it will help us very considerably in the matter, but failing a distinct understanding of that sort, I, personally, should feel it incumbent on me to take the opinion of the House upon the general question of whether this Bill is to get a Second Reading or not.

There is another very important matter in this connection. The Board of Education was evidently doubtful as to the effect of this Measure on the children of the country, and they issued instructions that inquiries should be madeamong local education authorities as to their opinions upon it. In the White Paper which has been issued as the result of that, it is stated that reference was made to 299 authorities, of which only 183 were in favour, while 27 were uncertain. One of the chief reasons for objection is indicated in the White Paper: It is said there that this would not have been so damaging to the children of the country had it not been that parental control was lacking and that the children could not be induced to go to bed. May I venture to suggest that it was the solar control which was keeping the children out of bed, and again I say it would he infinitely better if we let the sun conduct these matters. This very interesting White Paper also shows that it is the rural districts which are opposed to the Measure. It is the rural districts which are chiefly affected, and it is on behalf of the rural districts that I am endeavouring to put the case before the House. In an Appendix to the White Paper it is stated that an instruction was issued on the matter to parents of school children it is called, "A Message to Parents," and it states, "Many children have been found of late not to do justice to their lessons because they have had too little sleep." This is in consequence of Summer Time, and in consequence of tinkering with the sun. The children consequently stay up an hour later and get an hour's sleep less. Surely the consideration of the children's health and the consideration of agriculture being a very serious business to the country, as opposed to the pleasure which is really what the Bill seeks to encourage—surely these matters are so important that it would be better for the Government to drop the Bill altogether. Failing that, it would be certainly a gracious act on their part if they would here and now state that they will cut off a month it each end and make this an annual Bill.

Mr. SEXTON

It is not my intention to oppose the principle of this Bill. As a matter of fact, personally I prefer its permanent introduction, as it is decidedly a boon to the vast majority of the industrial workers outside the agricultural workers, and if the agricultural industry be met by the compromise suggested by the Home Secretary, I sincerely trust the representatives of agriculture will not act the policy of the dog in the manger as suggested by the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment, to reject the Bill. From the point of view of economising in my gas bill, I find it a very important item, and on the coal too, and, on the whole, I consider it is a great advantage to the great mass of the industrial workers. There is one weakness in the Bill, or rather the drafting of the Bill is causing some confusion in the minds even of the most earnest advocates of the Measure. In Clause 3 the legal phraseology is so peculiar and vague that it has led in some cases to very great confusion of thought. The Clause reads: For the purposes of this Act the period of Summer Time shall be taken to be the period beginning at two o'clock, Greenwich mean time, in the morning of the day next following the last Saturday in March, or, if that day is Easter Day, the day next following the last Saturday hut one in March, and ending at two o'clock, Greenwich mean time, in the morning of the day next following the first Saturday in October. That may be clear to the legal mind, but it is most confusing to the ordinary lay mind. Let me point out one or two actual results that I know have happened. The Mover of the Amendment pointed out that the saving of an hour's sleep of a morning was a great boon to some people. I want to submit to the right hon. Gentleman that the confusion arising from this Clause, which is religiously copied by the daily Press, has been responsible for the saving of half a day's sleep at my place. I was not at home, but my people sat up religiously till 2 o'clock in the morning when Summer Time came into force this year. They thought that if they were to put the clock back before 2 o'clock in the morning they would be committing an evil act and the result was that when 2 o'clock in the morning came they were so heavy and tired that they put the clock on instead of back, so that when Sunday morning came, being devoutly religious church-goers, they found when they got to church that the people were coming out instead of going in. The right hon. Gentleman has sins enough to answer for, for what shall it profit a man or a woman if he or she shall gain an hour in the morning and lose his or her own soul in the dinner time? Surely the right hon. Gentleman does not want to add to his sins by adding that to his conscience. Let me give another case. The ordinary workman cannot follow this legal phrasing, and I know a case of a man who took this to mean 2 o'clock in the afternoon. He came home, perhaps after closing time, and put the clock on, with the result that when he woke up on Monday morning and went to work he found it was dinnertime. I want to suggest, as a supporter of this Bill, that some kind of machinery should be used to let the general public, and the working men particularly, know what this really means. Are they to sit up to till 2 o'clock in the morning, or can they put it on before 2 o'clock? I want to suggest, while giving my hearty sup- port to the whole Measure, that some more definite and understandable instruction be issued to the general public than that contained in Clause 3.

Mr. SUGDEN

I have very carefully listened to the arguments of the hon. and gallant Member for Kincardine (Lieut.-Colonel A. Murray), who moved the rejection of the Bill, and also to the hon. Member for Mid-Bedford (Mr. Townley), who seconded the Amendment. I give place to no man in this House in my knowledge of the immense importance and value of agriculture, but when that has been said, I say that the bearing of this very useful Bill upon the other interests of the country should be considered, and I would remark, in passing, to industries of which one has some definite, practical knowledge, for not very long ago, it was known that the men, the women, and the children who work in our factories were often not able to see the daylight except through the windows of the great manufacturing places in which they were working. That may be a right or a wrong thing, but some of us imagine and feel that it is highly improper that the great industrialists of this country should be obstructed from getting God's pure air and light, which is at the full opportunity of every agriculturist in the country, not only in their hours of leisure, but often at their work as well. I want, however, to put a more technical argument before the House in support of this Bill. I have been looking round the Chamber to see if some of the very eminent medical colleagues that we have here were present to speak upon this matter. I do not see them, therefore I would bring to the knowledge of Members of this House the immense and important research work that is taking place under the auspices of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, also at the Ministry of Agriculture itself, and at the Ministry of Health, as to the question of hours of fatigue in regard to our industrial workers. It is an acknowledged fact, scientifically, that work between certain periods that obtain in this Daylight Saving Bill, has less harmful result upon the worker, brings more definite produce and product to the worker and the employer than did the old times that obtained before the Act was introduced.

We fully understand that the agriculturists have their problems—and deep and large problems they are—but I do suggest that we should consider the matter from the point of view also of the good of the whole of the industrial workers of the country from a physical standpoint, and I want to remind Members of this House, that while the great industrial workers have proved their Al capacity in respect of courage—industrial courage and national courage in all its different branches—it is a fact that in physique they do not, and cannot, compare with their agricultural brothers. I have nothing to do with the bearing of sport upon the Bill. Although I am a keen sportsman myself, I would not for a moment allow the claims of sport to be considered in connection with this Bill unless it be from a health standpoint, and although there may be disciples of loyal and royal games amongst all classes, I do suggest that the claim of the worker physically, mentally and morally is advanced by the application of this Bill. The children are the asset of the country, and you cannot put in pounds, shillings and pence the claims of agriculturists, or any other section of the community, against the physique of the children and of the country. I hope the House will give support to my right hon. Friend's Bill, and I support the suggestion that has been made, that instead of the Bill commencing in the early part of March, it should be delayed possibly until the middle of April, when the seed season may have been fully utilised (as I am informed by my agricultural friends). But I suggest the time should not be shortened at the other end, namely, the September end. I ask my colleagues in this House to support this Bill.

Sir HARRY HOPE

I desire to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the moderate and conciliatory manner in which he moved the Second Beading of this Bill. I think the speech of the right hon. Gentleman shows that, in discussing this question, it is wise to take an all-round view. I know very well there are masses of our people who require a change from the sedentary, indoor life to which their daily work confines them. I believe that there are masses of our people who are the better for getting more open-air exercise when their day's work is over, and to whom, therefore, this Bill is wel- come. As regards the effects of the Bill upon the health of our people, I am not competent to express an opinion. Then, I understand, there are many people who carry on work on allotments who very much appreciate the operation of Summer Time. In that way, and in the others which I have mentioned, as I have said, there are large numbers of people who will welcome the introduction of this Bill, and those are some of the illustrations which, I think, can be used in favour of it.

There is, however, another side, and I think if this House is to arrive at a wise conclusion on this subject it is well to consider, quietly and dispassionately, all sides of the question. The agricultural industry is not only a large and an important industry, but it is one which we as a country cannot afford to ignore. I went with a deputation from Scotland, consisting not merely of farmers, but supported by representatives from the Farm Servants' Union of Scotland. The representatives of the farm servants did not come personally, but they wrote in support of the deputation's view. Their argument for not coming was that this Government was so bad that there was no use in coming before them. I think that as we had a unanimous expression of opinion both from the men who carry on the industry and from the men who work in the industry, the right hon. Gentleman and this House would do well to take time in considering this Measure.

We cannot afford, as I have said, to ignore the requirements of agriculture, or to stultify its demands, but I think it is possible to arrive at an even balance on this question, and to provide both for the enlarged opportunity for daylight use and yet to keep within the laws of Nature which govern and control the industry of agriculture. If the Bill did not come into operation until the 1st May, I think a considerable benefit to agriculture would result, and I think that could be done without any great loss to the class of people who would benefit by the Bill. In April the evenings are cold, and are not very inviting to people out of doors, and yet the month of April is an all-important month to the agricultural industry. It is, perhaps, the main seed month of the year. In April work begins at six in the morning. If this Bill came into operation, it would have to begin at five in the morning. April is a month of morning frosts, which are not a had thing for agriculture, but have a beneficial action. Their effect is to pulverise the soil and make a. fine tilth, which enables the tender roots and fibres of plant life to survive' dry seasons and periods of drought. Therefore these morning frosts do an inestimable amount of good. You do not want to work the land when the frost is on it; you want to allow the frost to come out with the rising of the sun. When we think of that action of nature, we immediately see what an interesting industry agriculture is. Agriculture is not merely an industry, it is an art, because the people who work at it have got to study and understand the immutable laws of nature. By passing an unnatural proposal such as this you will be acting in an unnatural manner and you will do infinite damage to agriculture. If you allow this Bill to come into operation in April, what effect is it going to have on the workmen? These men begin work at six in the morning. What hon. Member would like to be taken out of his bed before five o'clock in the morning in the cold and darkness in order to begin his work? Nothing will tend to encourage the workers to begin at a later hour more than this Bill. The month of April is the important seed month and if the farmer misses by a fortnight his opportunities of seed sowing in April, they will be gone. By putting this Bill into operation in April, you will be dealing a deadly blow at agriculture. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, not merely to give us a vague assurance that April will be cut out, but to make a definite promise.

Then we come to the other suggestion, namely, that September also should be left out. Except in the early districts and in the South of England, September is the main harvest month of the year for agriculture. Those later parts of the country, which harvest in September, are the very areas which cannot afford to have their natural conditions affected by this Bill. We all know that in September there are heavy dews in the morning, which completely stop harvest operations. In the later parts of the country these dews are more prevalent than in the earlier areas. By letting this Bill operate in September you are going to handicap the later districts. Therefore, when those of us who have any connection with agriculture consider it, we realise that this Bill is an extremely bad one. We ask that the months of April and September should be cut out.

If the right hon. Gentleman would give us an assurance to that effect I think he would ensure a speedier passage for this Bill, because he would remove obstacles which I am quite sure in his heart he knows are bad for the country's interests. On the other hand, he would still cater for those who desire longer evenings during the summer. The suggestion that this Bill should be a temporary Measure is an excellent one. It is simply an experiment. We have heard it said that France's action is uncertain and perhaps, unknown. While we are passing through a transitional period, would it not be well that this Measure should come up every year for review I Experience would then lead us 'on our way and we should see whether it would be better to have these months included, or whether some of them ought to be cut out. The experts, who advise us with regard to the health of our people and the effect of this Measure upon it, would have time to formulate their views. Looking at the matter from all these points of view, I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to give us a definite assurance that he will cut out the months of April and September and make the Bill a temporary Measure for one year only.

Mr. BANTON

I should like to speak, not for the agriculturist, but for the town workers, and to express their appreciation of this Measure, and their desire that it should be continued. I am a townsman; I come into contact with the workers in industrial centres; and their appreciation would be much greater if the hours of Daylight Saving were further extended. I have heard the view expressed thousands of times that they would appreciate two extra hours rather than one, and there is a way of looking at the question from a national point of view and from the standpoint of national economy, which would show that it would be much better if that were so. The farmers' representatives speak as though the Bill were specifying times of work and as if it were compulsory on the agriculturist to begin work at certain times. The hon. Member who moved the rejection of the Bill spoke much about Nature's laws. He said that we were violating them, and were trying to misappropriate the light of the sun. It strikes me that we are rather adapting ourselves more to Nature's laws by utilising Nature's sunlight. Man proves himself man and a civilised being by that law of adaptation. Agriculturists are notorious for their lack of an adaptable spirit. That is one of the causes why we find them opposing a Bill like this.

The, fact that this Measure, when it was introduced during war time, was received with unanimity from all sides showed that it was desirable in the national interest, from the point of view of economy and on other grounds. If it was found desirable then in the interests of national economy, are not the same reasons valid to-day? We continually hear from the Treasury Bench of the necessity for economy. There is a great economy in this method of utilising daylight rather than artificial light, and of taking advantage of the heat of the sun rather than of that derived artificially from coal and other materials. Therefore, we are strongly in favour of the Bill. The Mover of the Motion for rejection recalled to the House the saying of the Prime Minister, when he promised agriculturists that drastic measures should be taken to make sure that the food production of the country should be increased. On that line I am speaking. We want to make sure that the food production of our country shall be increased. We find, from the agricultural returns, that year after year thousands of acres less are put down to the production of food than formerly.

On the other hand, we find that the industrialists are making up for the loss on the agricultural side. I come from a town where hundreds of acres of land have been appropriated during recent years for allotments. I represent thousands of allotment-holders, men who derive advantage from the longer days by putting in their time producing food for their families and their neighbours. That is a great saving to the nation, and a great advantage to our national health. It is advantageous not only from the standpoint of health and of pleasure, but owing to the fact that they are producing good food instead of having to purchase it in the ordinary way—food which is very much better because it is home grown and freshly cut. On these grounds I hope the House will consider the greater advantage of the greater number. As has been so well pointed out, the industrialists ought to have the advantage, for they deserve it. I am not speaking particularly upon behalf of those who have the enjoyment of a longer day and a longer night to devote to pleasure, that is to say, the younger part of our generation. Surely, however, they deserve some consideration. It is one of the most delightful sights that we elder men can see, the young folk going to their recreation fields to play tennis, cricket and other sport that we in our younger days were debarred from enjoying because of the longer day we had to work.

Sir EVAN JONES

I am not at all sure that the Government, or it may be various Members of the House, are actually following out the theory of the welfare of the greater number to which the last speaker referred, by endeavouring to impose upon a very great and important industry a definite hardship and disability in the name of that particular theory. It has always appeared to me that the only argument that holds in support of the welfare of the greater number is that no section of the community should be allowed to carry on its work in such a manner as to interfere with the happiness or welfare of the remainder. That, however, is quite a different matter from imposing a definite hardship and a definite disability upon any section of the community for the sake, or the supposed sake, of the remainder. The matter is one of very considerable importance. The agricultural community of this country are not doing anything in the course of their operations which interferes with the welfare of the rest of the community. If they did it would be perfectly proper for this House to impose upon them conditions preventing them doing so. On the other hand it is now suggested by this Bill that you should penalise the most important industry of this country in the sacred name, or supposedly sacred name, of giving more pleasure to certain other sections of the community.

The hon. Member for the St. Helens Division (Mr. Sexton), who spoke on behalf of the Labour party in support of this Bill—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no?"]—well, he supported this Bill from the benches opposite. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not for the party!] He seemed only to use the argument that owing to certain domestic troubles which occurred in his own home, and because a certain order was issued in connection with Summer Time, that therefore the Bill should be supported. I could not quite follow the trend of his argument, but it was something in that direction. To put forward views of that kind to a very large extent discounts the arguments which have been otherwise used in support of the Bill. The Home Secretary has really already given away the case for the Bill. He has admitted, and admitted fully, the strong arguments against the Bill from the agricultural point of view. Having gone [...] far in the admission that this Bill will be undoubtedly imposing a serious disability upon this great industry, I think that he should go further, and withdraw the Bill, There is only one justification which I can see the Government can bring forward really in support of their arguments, and that is before they came to this House with this Bill to make arrangements with those who retain the conduct of affairs to see that the sun should follow an Act of Parliament, that the dews which fall upon the country should be regulated by Orders in Council, that the habits of the animals should be subjected to the rules and regulations made by the Home Office, and that many other matters which now are founded on the ordinary principles of Nature should also be made amenable to their ordinances. That, probably, would be some argument in favour of the Bill.

I have recently visited my constituency, and conducted personal investigations into what the actual results of this Bill will be. I have found in several farms that they have been obliged already to adopt what they call animal tame and farming time. There is one feature in connection with this ease which has not yet been stated. One of the most terrible influences which this Bill, if it becomes an Act, will have, upon the agricultural industry will be the serious difficulties which arise in regard to train time. Even if it were possible and feasible, or desirable, that farmers should alter their business arrangements and their times, they would still have to arrange for their animals to follow Orders in Council, and if they could arrange for their men to go to work at a time suited to a Parliamentary instruction, they are still faced by the fact that the trains will be run according to the new Summer Time, and that they will not be able to get their milk and produce to market except at a very considerable difficulty and additional expense. There is no doubt that the economies of agriculture would be most seriously affected by this Bill. I have not the slightest hesitation in asserting that a Measure of this kind is an attempt at an unwarrantble interference with the conduct and economy of what I venture to assert is to-day probably the most important industry in this country. For these reasons I hope the House will decline to give this Bill a Second Reading.

Mr. LUNN

I have no doubt that whatever kind of a Bill is introduced in this House it will find some supporters. This is a Bill in regard to which some points can be made in its favour, and for certain classes of the population it may be an advantage. For those people who can get up when they like and turn out after the streets have been well aired, it may be to their advantage, but to an industry like the one I was connected very intimately with before I came to this House, namely, the mining industry, it is a great disadvantage, and I cannot understand any miners' representatives supporting a Bill of this character.

Mr. R. RICHARDSON

Speak for yourself.

Mr. LUNN

Had it not been for the reason that two of my colleagues have spoken in support of this Bill, I should not have desired to speak on this occasion. I know that my own association, the Yorkshire Miners' Association, are unanimously against this Measure, and they have always been opposed to it, because we are satisfied that it is not in the interests of the miner or the industrial worker who has to get up in the middle of the night to go to his work. We are also satisfied that it is not in the interests of the miner's wife. The wife of a man who has to go to work at such an early hour, and who is the mother of a young family, has perhaps the hardest lot of any class or section of the community. Perhaps it is better from the point of view of the wife that the pits are not working so regularly, and therefore she has not to get up every morning so early.

There are thousands of miners' wives who have to get up in the middle of the night, and a Bill like this forces them to get up earlier than they would otherwise have to do. Sometimes there is a double shift at the colliery Where the son or the lodger works, and then the wife is kept up waiting for the conclusion of the second shift. If she has any young children they will not go to bed because of this Bill and the longer daylight, and the wife has to get the children to school next morning earlier and get them up. I cannot understand why any representative of an industrial community can support this Bill and I am quite prepared to accept the position taken up on behalf of agriculture. I do not suppose that there is any Agricultural Labourers' Union or any body of agricultural workers who would support this Bill. With regard to the views expressed by the hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Sexton), I would like to point out that be is a bachelor whilst most of the Members of the Labour party are married men. I hope this Bill does not get a Second Reading. Those who support this Bill are in a minority, and they are not the most useful section of the community. After everything has been said, the people who do the hard work and who have built up this nation ought to be considered and so ought their wives and families. For these reasons I take the view that we ought to reject this Bill.

Mr. MACQUISTEN

I fully agree with the remark made by the last speaker, that this is one of the most absurd Measures that was ever passed. It has now been passed by this House every year since 1916. It was passed during the period of the War, when. according to the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), we were all mad. I do not know why he should place to that a limitation of time. This Bill is an absurd proposition on the face of it. What is the good of telling lies about the time? It amounts to that? It enacts by Act of Parliament a lie, and it states that that is the time which is not the time, and it is perfectly absurd. There are about 45,000,000 inhabitants in this country, and, therefore, you can take it that there are 7,000,000 households containing at least 7,000,000 clocks. Every one of those clocks has a face, and you cannot expect to train the rising generation in veracity if they have facing them every morning a gross misstatement of fact.

It is all very well for the hon. Member for St. Helens to speak of the enormous advantage of this Measure to the industrial classes, but I very much doubt his statement. This Measure may give them a little longer time in the evening for leisure, but on this question I feel very deeply for the agricultural classes, and I know some of them, and, unlike many of the hon. Members who have spoken on this subject, I know what I am talking about. Some of them are my very good friends and I will picture one family I know. During the last year this particular family have endeavoured to redeem themselves from the condition of being wage earners, and they took up a dairy business. They are now the proud possessors of a small herd of dairy cows, and they complain to me bitterly of the indescribable hardship of getting up at two o'clock instead of three o'clock in the morning to milk the cattle. They also complain that it is this Bill which is inflicting upon them the additional hardship of rising at two o'clock in the morning. That spreads right through the agricultural world and makes their lot harder than that of the town population. In the towns the factories and works and the hours of working are always under their own control. The hours of work of the agricultural population are under the control of the Almighty. They are directed by the movements of the sun, with which nobody, except, perhaps, a gentleman named Joshua, has ever successfully interfered. Joshua's descendants to-day are the only people who seem to have power to control anything in this country. They control largely the Treasury Bench. They control London and New York and they are seeking to get control of Jerusalem. I do not see why we should give way to the sons of Joshua in this matter.

10.0 P.M.

This Bill is founded on an absolutely unsound and false principle. You cannot get away from the old maxim of Heraclitus that a thing cannot be and can be at one and the same time. It cannot be 12 o'clock at night and 1 o'clock in the morning at the same time, and I submit that Parliament by the vote of the majority has no right to attempt to alter fundamentally the facts of nature. No Act of Parliament can secure that two and two can make five. You cannot perform these miracles, and if you attempt to do it by Act of Parliament you only bring the law and legislation into ridicule. Anyone who knows the country districts and who has spoken to agriculturists must be well aware that the country people look upon this Bill a; having done more to bring Parliamentary institutions into contempt than any other Measure. It gives agriculturists, and especially agricultural labourers, a sense of ill-usage. They do not like having imposed upon them by the votes of their fellow men conditions which add materially to the hardship of their labour and which at the same time interfere to sonic extent with the fruitfulness of the soil. I hope the House will go to a Division and throw out this absurd and ridiculous Measure, which is obviously supported by people who do not encounter time in the same way as rural people do. Further, the operation of this system of Summer Time has had a serious effect on the health of children. Anyone who knows anything about the dairy industry knows the injury which it has done to that industry, and anyone who has a family of young children realises quite well how these artificial hours affect the youngsters. If you send them to bed compulsorily they will not sleep, and then there is difficulty in getting them to rise in the morning. The fact is, nearly all our legislation is passed by people who have no practical experience in family or other industrial conditions. The raising of families is one of the largest and most important industries in this country, and anyone who has had experience in that knows how injurious to health this Bill is. I sincerely trust that the majority of the Members of this House will vote against it. By so doing they will not necessarily bring His Majesty's Government down. If they cannot defeat it, I hope that at any rate the Home Secretary will cut off the months of April and September, and will make this an annual Measure, seeing that it has never been sufficiently tested. I am sure that if he will do that when next year comes round this or possibly another and more enlightened Parliament will reject the Bill.

Mr. A. HOPKINSON

The Mover and Seconder of this Amendment, speaking from an agricultural point of view have given expression to certain Bucolics which are calculated to cause the ordinary town dweller to wonder what is in the bucolic mind. The hon. and gallant Member who proposed the Amendment painted a most pathetic picture of certain agricultural constituents of his own and pointed out how they had lost, without any chance of regaining them, several hours of their valuable lives. He reminded me of the Spanish treasure galleon which started from one of the ports on the West Coast of America to sail to Europe and was prevented from following the usual route by the presence of Drake and his piratical squadron. The galleon had therefore to circumnavigate the globe and discovered on returning to the port of departure on the West Coast of South America, that they had irrevocably lost one whole day of 24 hours. Investigation further proved that that particular day was the Saint's day of the patron saint of their ship, and, on referring the matter to the Archbishop, that Prelate ordained that it was absolutely essential that the ship should at once proceed to circumnavigate the globe in a reverse direction and it would then find, on returning to its point of departure, that it had picked up the lost day. I would suggest to the hon. and gallant Member who made the complaint on behalf of his agricultural friends that they should follow a similar policy and then they will eventually find they have regained 24 hours in which to work.

The hon. Member who seconded the Amendment told us, with the air of one disclosing an epoch-making discovery, that it is quite impossible to alter the laws of nature, a remark with which I am pleased to observe several Members of the House agreed. The hon. and learned Member for Springburn (Mr. Macquisten) pointed out that by calling 12 o'clock 1 o'clock, as this Bill proposes to do, we were making the clocks of the country tell an obvious fie. He is evidently under the impression that when the hands of the clock in this Chamber coincide with the top of the clock it must be 12 o'clock, and that if the hands are named it becomes a different time. He is under the impression that time is an absolute and not a relative and fluid thing. He apparently is not aware of the fact that if one walks towards a clock time goes more quickly, and if one walks away from it, it goes more slowly. If you look at the clock in the Clock Tower from the yard outside, that clock indicates a differ- ent time from what it indicates if you look at it from a point 100 yards away. The thing is obvious. It is perfectly well-known to all here that if you move towards the scene of any event that event occurs more quickly, and that if you walk away from it the event happens more slowly. Therefore it is most improper to say that the mere fact of altering the bands of the clock makes that clock say that which is not true. For example, if the time here were the same as it is a yard away, it would be perfectly possible for an individual to be in two places at the same time. The only reason why a person cannot be in two places at the same time is to be found in the fact that you cannot have the same time at two different places.

The reason for that is perfectly clear. It is obvious that if one looks at a clock from a point some distance away, one sees that the clock is indicating, not the present time, but a time a little before the present time, and the further away one is from the clock the slower that clock appears to be. It is obvious that, by a simple mathematical operation, you can come to the equally true and sensible conclusion that, if you move towards that clock from a distance, you make that clock indicate a time more and more in advance of the time it would indicate if you remained where you started. Therefore, when hon. Members come down to this House, as the hon. and learned Member for Springburn did to-night, and say that the altering of the position of the hands of the clock makes that clock tell a lie, they are really playing with this House, and are not treating the matter seriously at all.

To be serious, I cannot see—I am afraid it shows limited intelligence—why these complaints from the agricultural Members are made with regard to this Bill. They say that in the early morning there are frosts and dews, and that it is impossible, therefore, for the farmer to set about his work at certain seasons of the year. Does that prevent the farmer from starting his day an hour later according to the clock on those occasions? The position from the industrial point of view is very different. Indeed, we know, and no one better than yourself, Mr. Speaker, the extraordinary discomfort, to say the least, and the injury to health, that was caused by the system of beginning work, during quite a number of months in the year, before daylight had emerged in the morning. It seems to me a most pitiful thing that millions of our fellow-citizens should have been compelled to go to work in the dark, to work through all the hours of daylight, and then to come away after dark in the evening. Although this Bill really touches upon points of psychology which are extremely obscure—because it is not very easy to understand why the mere fact of calling the time an hour different should make people willing to get up an hour earlier than they otherwise would—there is no doubt that in actual practice it does save the industrial workers, particularly in the North of England and in the industrial area of Scotland, from very great discomfort, so great as to be, in my opinion, dangerous to health. Therefore, although it may cause a certain inconvenience to the bucolic mind, which cannot understand that time is purely relative and not absolute, yet the convenience and the benefit to health that it produces among the industrial population ought, surely, to counterbalance those slight inconveniences.

Mr. ACLAND

In order to save the time of the House, I shall cut out the humorous overture from my speech, and shall confine myself to three or four simple observations on this question. First of all, although I look at the matter primarily from the agricultural point of view, I do think that in this matter the agriculturist has got, if certain matters are safeguarded, to give way to what, I feel sure, is the greater convenience of the bulk of the population from having Summer Time. I have no doubt whatever that the great mass of the working classes—the clerk and artisan population—of this country benefits enormously by the extra hour of daylight. I think that an argument used by one hon. Member is very important in this connection. It makers an enormous difference to the point of view of the allotment holder, which we were discussing only two days ago. The hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. A. Hopkinson) put what I think is the most obvious point from the agricultural point of view. Why cannot the farmer begin his work an hour later in the day and ask his workers to come an hour later—instead of working, say, from half-past six to five, to work from half-past seven to six? The reasons, of course, are three. With regard to milking, you have to suit the trains, and the railway companies cannot alter the train times. They are all put forward. That is a perfectly obvious thing, which cannot be got over. Then, with regard to the sequence of the woman's day, she has got to fit in with the time at which school meets, and that is according to the clock; the time of meeting is not altered during the summer.

With regard to the ordinary operations of agriculture, however, with the exception of milking, when there are no trains to catch or anything of the kind, when you actually try to alter the times at which men are accustomed to come to work and to leave work, it is very much easier to try to do that than to succeed. What it comes to is this, that you expect the agricultural worker in a parish to leave work, say, at 6 by the clock, whereas other workers in the parish would be leaving at 5 by the clock. Unless the whole neighbourhood alters its habits and its time of coming to work, you would have the agricultural worker, because of the dews and frosts and so on, being asked to begin an hour later and finish an hour later, which, naturally, he does not want to do, while people in other walks of life are beginning an hour earlier and finishing an hour earlier. It is all right in theory to say that you can simply alter the times for men to come and go, but it is different in practice, because the agricultural worker, when his fellows are getting the extra time on their allotments, wants to get his extra time on his allotment as well. Therefore, I do press my hon. Friends to have some regard, not to the demands that this Bill should be withdrawn or anything of that kind, but to the very cogent arguments in favour of not beginning Summer Time quite so early as is proposed, but of giving us, say, the month of April, and taking into consideration a week or two in the autumn, and by that means at any rate meeting part of the point which the agricultural worker, I think quite naturally and rightly, puts forward for consideration.

Mr. HINDS

I approach this matter from the practical point of view. This Bill is welcomed in many quarters, but I want to reinforce the appeal that has been made to the Government to give us those two months. I represent a very large agricultural district, and the evidence I have from all quarters is that Summer Time commences too early and closes too late. The farmer and agriculturist should have consideration in this matter. I am not going to repeat the arguments which have already been put forward as to the injury which is done to an industry which has been called the key industry of the country, but I appeal to the Government to consider the agricultural interests in this respect. We shall not vote against the Bill if we have some assurance that these two months will be given to us.

Major HOWARD

I can confirm the inconvenience and the great loss which Summer Time has caused to the farmer, but at the same time I recognise that there is a feeling in certain parts of the community that Summer Time is desirable. Therefore I am pleased that the Home Secretary has agreed to meet us, and I think that agriculturists would be wise at this stage to try to meet the Home Secretary, and come to some compromise rather than vote against the Second Reading. With reference to what fell from the hon. Member for Mossley, it was simply a condemnation of his factory methods. He had not got backbone enough, to use a vulgarism, without kidding himself that it was an hour later than it really was, to allow his men and women to go home at the proper time, so they would not injure their health by staying in the factory too long. If he had the broad mind and backbone of the countryman, who tries to adapt himself to the conditions in which he finds himself, as have the agriculturists been trying to adapt ourselves to Summer Time and failed, he could begin an hour earlier. That is exactly what my men have been doing, trying to adapt themselves to Summer Time by starting work at 7 a.m. instead of 6. That is what the men, I believe, on 99 farms out of 100 in Suffolk have been doing.

The inconvenience in the case of the agricultural labourer is to his wife. The agricultural labourer and his master have divided the day into three parts. He has found it convenient that he should work 2 to 2½ hours before breakfast. He takes three-quarters of an hour for breakfast, and that would give him 3½ hours before his lunch. He would take an hour or an hour and a quarter for lunch, and that would give 2 to 2½ hours in the afternoon. By that means he would get in 51 or 52 hours a week. He starts at seven o'clock by the clock, and works 2½ hours. That brings him to half-past nine. All the schools open their doors at nine. His wife has to get up and get the children's breakfast. She has to get another breakfast for the husband and the elder children, who go to work. The same thing applies at lunch. The schools are closed between 12 and two. The man does not come home to lunch until two. Therefore the woman has to get a special luncheon for the school children and another for those who are at work. The same thing applies at tea time. All the labourers' wives throughout the whole of the Eastern Counties are against Summer Time, and so are our men. But we are always open to compromise. Although we are in a minority, although we know our case may be right, and what we are making for is right, we do not ask any unfair advantage. We know many of our industrial brothers like Summer Time, and I am prepared to support the Second Reading provided we can get a definite undertaking from the Home Secretary that we can have April and September free. I prefer that it should he an annual Bill, and if we can have those two months I shall vote for the Second Reading, otherwise I shall be compelled to vote against the Government.

Mr. R. RICHARDSON

I rise to support the Bill. I am pleading for the miners. I want hon. Members to remember that the miner has to give up eight hours of God's daylight every day. He desires to have sunshine as well as any other citizen in the country. He wants to have an opportunity of basking in the sunshine and seeing the flowers and birds at some time in the day. The Miners' Executive are asking the Home Secretary to give this matter his earnest consideration. I am speaking on behalf of the miners. The men who go to work at four o'clock in the morning, who come up at 12 o'clock, and go to bed until four o'clock in the afternoon, have little of God's sunlight left, unless the extra hour of Summer Time is given. The men who go to work at 10 o'clock and come up at five o'clock are thankful for an additional hour in the evening, when they may enjoy some recreation and fresh air, of which they have been deprived because of their occupation underground.

With respect to the effect upon the children I have made inquiries and I am informed that, with respect to the schools in the County of Durham, the children are just as good under Summer Time, in physique and in every other way, as they were under the ordinary hours. Definite instructions were given that this information should be obtained, and we are assured that the children have not suffered any detrimental effect. The miners for whom I speak are not like the agriculturists who enjoy God's daylight all the while. I am pleading for a body of men who give up much of God's daylight, and who ought to have every consideration at the hands of this House We desire that this should be made a permanent Act and not an annual arrangement, and if in the future Parliament finds that it has proved detrimental to the community the system could be revised.

Lieut.-Colonel WHELER

The Home Secretary in his opening remarks said that this subject did not seem to excite much interest from the fact that there were not many people in the House; but at the time when he introduced the Bill the House was enjoying its food supply, which it had drawn from agriculture. Since the natural cravings of Members have been satisfied, considerable interest has been taken in this subject, and a very considerable amount of opposition has been shown. I should be the last to wish to see any antagonism between country and town in. connection with this question. The interests of agriculture need to be understood more and more by the town dweller, and therefore any antagonism between agriculturists and town dwellers, and the furthering of the interests of one to the detriment of the other would be injurious in every possible Way. It is perfectly clear looking at the Bill that on the whole it acts in a detrimental way to agriculture. It is undoubtedly a fact that even with the shorter period that I ask the House to give us, it does impose disabilities on agriculture. On the other hand we have to recognise that, whether it be for pleasure or not, the long evenings do confer enormous good on the industrial population as a whole. That must be beneficial and must be carefully considered.

Therefore, agriculture has to give up something, and in doing so it has to realise that it is helping the industrial side of the population, which at present has the voting strength, to a benefit which it had not in the past. If the Home Secretary will give us a definite assurance, as has been urged from all quarters of the House, that those two months should come off, and that April with all the disabilities which it inflicts on the farmers, the difficulties of early morning work and the frosts, and September with its difficulties of late harvesting and the prolonging of harvesting operations, shall not be included, and will also remember what has been said by a representative of the Miners' Federation, as well as a small point in agriculture, which is an important one for the industrial population, the effect on the dairying industry of the early morning work, it will do a great deal to remove the opposition of a large number of agriculturists. As a keen agriculturist I realise that we have got to give away something in this Bill. I should like to see the Bill thrown out, but I realise that if this were done, we should probably make the urban population think that the rural population had got the better of them in this matter, and I do not wish that sort of spirit to go abroad, because a spirit of antagonism between the town and the country at the present time must do great harm. If the Home Secretary will give us an assurance that those two months will come off, and that he will also make this an annual Bill, he will do a great deal to get the Second Reading passed without a Division. On the other hand, if he does not, many of us will feel constrained to vote against it.

Mr. JOHNSTONE

I have always been in favour of Summer Time and I am in favour of it still. It is of great advantage to manufacturing districts and to the great bulk of the population. But I have been constrained to inquire more closely into the question how Summer Time affects agriculture and I am satisfied from all inquiries which I have made that it is a great prejudice to agriculture. A way out of the difficulty has been suggested over and over again to-night to the Home Secretary. I believe that if he would limit the period to the four months of Summer Time from May to the end of August it would meet all the needs of the case. Our working people would have in the four summer months long evenings for leisure, for their allotments, for pleasure and sport, and, on the whole, I think that that would be accepted by the working people as a satisfactory compromise. I am satisfied from the information given to me from Scotland that agriculturists there are more opposed to Summer Time even more than agriculturists in England. They are suffering from a real handicap in this matter. I thought at one time that they were prejudiced, and were exaggerating the disabilities of this Measure, but I am convinced from the inquiries I have made that they have had an undoubted grievance, and that something ought to be done to meet it. It is not proposed by those who oppose the Bill that Summer Time should be abolished altogether. No one has suggested that to-night. What has been suggested presents to those in charge of the Bill a fair compromise which would meet all the needs of the case. It would not quite meet all the points put forward by the agriculturists, but they have indicated that they do not wish to put themselves into opposition to the manufacturing classes and the industrial communities, and that, although some disabilities will still attach to them, they are prepared to agree to the Bill if limited to the months of May, June, July and August. That would work out most satisfactorily to our working people and would meet the case of the agriculturists. Would it not be better to adopt such an arrangement instead of having a very determined opposition which will constantly recur against the Measure?

Mr. SHORTT

So far as the promoters of this Bill are concerned, they are just as anxious as any Member of the House that there should be no sort of conflict between the town dweller and the country dweller. What we are trying to do, all of us, is to get some kind of agreement between these two conflicting interests, an agreement which, I hope, will be a permanent and friendly agreement. I have been asked to do two things—first of all to pledge myself that the cutting down of the period which I have promised shall be at least for two months, April and September; and, secondly, that the Bill shall be an annual Bill. With regard to the second request, I am perfectly willing to accede to it. I see no reason why any harm could be done by making the Bill an annual Bill. We would still have our Summer Time and there would be an opportunity of discussing it as the experience of years went on. But it is really too much to ask me to-night to pledge myself in regard to the two months of April and September. There are people in the towns, many of whom I have seen —I have read a long list of those who are in correspondence with us in support of this Bill—who are very anxious that they should have as long a period of Summer Time as is consistent with the safety of the agricultural industry. They appreciate the case of agriculture, but at the same time are anxious to get as long a period of Summer Time as they can.

I have definitely said and I pledge myself that the period shall be shortened. It shall not be that which is in the Bill. But I do not think it unreasonable for me to ask the House to allow us, between now and the Committee stage, to discuss the matter with the two interests and to try to bring them together, so that we may agree and get an agreed period put into the Bill in Committee. I ask the House not to press me to pledge myself definitely to-night without an opportunity of discussing the question with the interests concerned. I am sure the House will appreciate that we are very anxious to meet the agricultural interests and very anxious to assure them that as little harm as possible shall be done. At the same time we have other interests to consider. I repeat the pledge that the period will be shortened. It will certainly not be the whole of the months of April and September. I hope the House will now give us the Second Reading of the Bill, and then we shall be able, I trust, to get a friendly and fair agreement which will safeguard, as far as possible, the interests of the agricultural community.

Sir F. BANBURY

I propose to give the House a short history of this Measure. A Second Reading was given to a Bill of this kind before the War; it went to a Select Committee which rejected it, and we heard no more about it until, I think, in 1917 or some time about that period. Then, owing to the exigencies of the War a Bill was brought in and passed, but it was passed as a War Measure only. It was never supposed that it would he a permanent Measure. Now we are told that we may possibly get a reduction of the period, but we do not even know if it is to be reduced by the month of April and September or by only a portion of those months. My hon. Friend the Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) seems to think that the only objection of agriculturists to this Bill is because they do not understand how to manage the time. That is not the reason at all. It is because nature will not allow them to do their work at certain hours of the day.

A point which has been missed in connection with the agricultural objection to this Bill, is that April is a month which is adverse to the agriculturist on account of the dew in the early mornings. July and August are also adverse for that very reason. In June we do not get very much dew, but I would point out that hay is being cut and carried at the present moment—though that is very early—and I have known dews in June. I have, however, often known dews in July and August, and if there is a late hay harvest or a large amount of hay, the farmer very often does not cut his hay until the beginning of August. If he is dealing with that hay he has to wait until the dew is off before he can begin to work upon it. The same thing applies to the corn harvest. I admit that it does not affect wheat so much, because you can cart wheat even if it is a little damp, but you cannot cart oats if they are damp, and oats represent a most important crop. An hon. Member opposite complained that the miners did not get enough daylight. Why cannot the miners go to work earlier without this Bill? The dew does not affect their work.

Mr. RICHARDSON

They are working the whole of the 24 hours.

Sir F. BANBURY

It is not very long ago since I heard from those Benches a great outcry because the miners were only working a certain number of hours each day.

Mr. RICHARDSON

That is no argument. That was because they could not get employment.

Sir F. BANBURY

If the miner wishes to get up at 4 o'clock or 5 o'clock in the morning there is nothing to prevent him. We cannot start work at that hour in agriculture because nature prevents it. When we come to deal with the milk producers, we find that it is impossible for them to start work in time to get the milk for the trains. I do not know myself, but I am informed that the cows in that earlier part of the morning do not give as much milk as if they were milked at the ordinary hour. I do not think it can be said that the townspeople are universally in favour of this Bill. Not long ago a railway man came to me, unsolicited, knowing that I was a Member of Parliament, and said he disliked the Summer Time Bill very much because of the children. He said the children would not go to bed in the daylight, and if they did go to bed they did not go to sleep.

Captain Viscount CURZON

What about the children in Norway?

Sir F. BANBURY

It seemed to be a very reasonable proposition because I remember when I was a child two things I did not like and one was getting up in the morning and the other was going to bed at night. There is always a tendency on the part of children to dislike going to bed, at least until it is dark, and consequently, even if they are forced to go to bed, they do not sleep. That was rather a revelation to me, but I believe there is a good deal of feeling on that particular point in the country, and I am not at all sure that now that Summer Time has been tried it has been found to be such a universal success as was hoped for.

I remember when the Bill was first introduced that I and the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) told against it, and we had only two in the Lobby. However, we have had support this evening from all sides of the House, including the Labour party, and, therefore, I think it is fairly evident that the working of the Bill has not been the success which its promoters anticipated. An hon. Member for one of the Scottish divisions said his constituents advised him not to have anything to do with the Government, because it was a bad Government. However that may be, it is evident that it is no use appealing to the Government, but I trust the House will show that there are a considerable number of people who are opposed to this humbug, because it is nothing else—utter humbug. You want to have a little more daylight, and you have not got the courage to say, "Very well, I will get up at six in the morning," but you have got somebody to put the clock back, so that you pretend to get up at six, when in reality you are getting up at seven. I am opposed to humbug of all descriptions, and I am opposed to this Bill, first of all because it is humbug, secondly, because it is injurious to the agricultural industry, which is the greatest industry in the country and which is not going through a very prosperous time at present, thirdly, because I believe it is injurious to the health of the children, and fourthly, because I believe the only people who will gain anything by it, or will be supposed to gain anything by it, are those who are supposed to go and play cricket and tennis rather earlier in the evening than they would otherwise do. I very much doubt if many of them do that, and I very much doubt if the extra hour is not sometimes spent in a way in which it ought not to be spent. However that may be, we are not at present, in the financial stress through which this country is passing, justified in doing damage to any industry because perchance you may give a few people, or a great number if you like, another hour of amusement. Therefore I trust we shall show the Government that we are determined, not only that there shall be a diminution in the months, because I do not believe the diminution in the months proposed would be sufficiently good for agriculture. If you are going to alter it at all you would have to diminish it by at least three or four months. You have dew in August and July. I believe the only months in which you do not have dew are May and June, and it is the dew which prevents the agriculturist carrying out his business. Therefore, if you are going to do any good, you will have to diminish the number by more than two months, but we have not even got the pledge of two months. What will happen will he that the Government will see that there is a majority for whatever they propose, and then we shall be told that the majority is against us. I shall certainly, therefore, divide against the Bill.

Viscount CURZON

I was somewhat surprised to hear the remarks which have just fallen from the right hon. Gentleman. He gave as one ground for opposing the Bill the interests of the children. Has he ever been to the North of Scotland? He says children cannot go to sleep in daytime. How, then, do they ever get children to go to sleep in the North of Scotland at this time of the year, when it is light all night? There- fore, do the children there never go to sleep? I really do not think that argument will hold much water. Then we come to the point of view of the agricultural worker. From what I have been able to hear of the Debate, it amounts very largely to a question of balancing the interests of the agricultural and the city workers. I wonder whether the right hon. Baronet has ever had any mandate upon this Bill from any one of his constituents.

Sir F. BANBURY

I am not a delegate.

Viscount CURZON

I should like the right hon. Baronet to come across one evening and have a friendly game of cricket in Battersea Park, and hear what the people there and other sections of the population of London think about Summer Time. Why, it is the greatest boon City workers have ever had. I do hope the Home Secretary, while he shows signs of giving way to the agricultural interest —and it is quite right that he should to a certain extent—will not forget the interest of the City worker, who, I believe, really wants this Bill. I do hope the Home Secretary, if he gives way to a certain extent to the agricultural interest, will not give way too much. They say that it makes them get up too early. I cannot see why, if the agricultural worker wants to keep to Greenwich Mean Time, he should not do so.

Sir F. BANBURY

He cannot, on account of the trains.

Viscount CURZON

I submit that the agricultural interest, while the greatest interest in the country, is not the only interest. Do not let us altogether forget the interest of the town worker who cannot get out except in the evening, and it is his greatest boon. I do not believe that there is any real substance in the agitation against this Bill.

Major Sir BERTRAM FALLE

The Home Secretary has met the opponents of the Bill with fair words, more especially in agreeing to make this an annual Bill. There was no reason, it seems to me, why it should not be an annual Bill because there is no permanence in any Fill. The House may pass a Bill one Session and reverse it the next. My object now is to ask the Home Secretary if he will also meet me on another point—a point which, I am afraid, will not appeal very much to this House, but it is, nevertheless, a very important point to two small communities. There are two small communities in this Empire who have passed this Summer Bill with regularity, and it is only owing to the Home Office that they have not made it permanent. The Home Office prevented them from doing so. The Acts of this House are always transmitted to those communities by an Order in Council, but in this Bill it is proposed to alter that ordinary practice and make it an Order of this House. Whether this House makes it an Order or not, this Bill, when it is passed, will be sent by Order in Council. I am alluding to the two Legislatures which existed before this country was conquered and colonised, which have had the privilege of passing laws since the time when they placed their Duke upon the Throne of this country. They have helped and aided this country in all its wars, especially in the last one, in which their record will bear comparison with that of any and of very much larger communities. [HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"] I allude to the Norman

Islands, which had their two Legislatures, independent, before the Conquest, and have them still. Their laws, when passed, are approved by His Majesty in Council, and not by this House. I have always been opposed to Home Rule, for the simple reason that I have seen it working in those Islands, and I have seen the efforts of great Government Departments in Whitehall to—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]. I understand that the Home Secretary wishes to say a word or two, and I trust he will give me some hope on the question which I have been asking.

Mr. SHORTT

Perhaps I may be allowed just to say a few words. I will certainly consider very carefully what the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir B. Falle) has put to me. With regard to the shortening of the period I can, I think, say this much—that the reduction at each end shall not be less than three weeks. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no; two weeks."]

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 207; Noes, 26.

Division No. 139.]	AYES.	[10.55 p.m.
Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis D.	Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton	Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte	Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm. W.)	Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.	Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)	Green, Albert (Derby)
Ammon, Charles George	Cheyne, Sir William Watson	Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)
Armitage, Robert	Churchman, Sir Arthur	Greig, Colonel Sir James William
Astor, Viscountess	Clough, Sir Robert	Grenfell, Edward Charles
Atkey, A. R.	Coats, Sir Stuart	Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Baird, Sir John Lawrence	Cockerill, Brigadler-General G. K.	Hacking, Captain Douglas H.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley	Cope, Major William	Hailwood, Augustine
Baltour, George (Hampstead)	Courthope, Lieut.-Col. George L.	Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. Liv'p'l,W.D'by)
Banton, George	Curzon, Captain Viscount	Halls, Walter
Barker, Major Robert H.	Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)	Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)	Davidson, J. C. C. (Hemel Hempstead)	Harmsworth. C. B. (Bedford, Luton)
Barlow, Sir Montague	Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.	Haslam, Lewis
Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)	Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)	Hayday, Arthur
Barnett, Major Richard W.	Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)	Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Widnes)
Barnston, Major Harry	Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)	Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)
Barrand, A. R.	Doyle, N. Grattan	Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar (Banff)	Edgar, Clifford B.	Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank
Barton, Sir William (Oldham)	Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)	Hills, Major John Waller
Bellairs, Commander Canyon W	Elveden, Viscount	Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)	Erskine. James Malcolm Montelth	Hopkins, John W. W.
Betterton, Henry B.	Eyres-Monsell, Corn. Bolton M.	Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Birchall, J. Dearman	Falcon, Captain Michael	Howard, Major S. G.
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)	Falle, Major Sir Bertram Godfray	Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Blake, Sir Francis Douglas	Farquharson, Major A. C.	Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.
Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-	Fildes, Henry	Irving, Dan
Bowyer, Captain G. W. E.	Finney, Samuel	John, William (Rhondda, West)
Bramsdon, Sir Thomas	Foot, Isaac	Johnson, Sir Stanl[...]
Breese, Major Charles E.	Ford, Patrick Johnston	Johnstone, Joseph
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive	Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot	Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Brittain, Sir Harry	Fraser, Major Sir Keith	Koliaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George
Brown, Major D. C.	Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.	Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham)
Bruton, Sir James	Galbraith, Samuel	Kennedy, Thomas
Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.	Gee, Captain Robert	Kiley, James Daniel
Butcher, Sir John George	Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham	King, Captain Henry Douglas
Cairns, John	Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John	Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)
Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.	Glyn, Major Ralph	Lawson, John James
Casey, T. W.	Goff, Sir R. Park	Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)	Gould, James C.	Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales).
Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)	Poison, Sir Thomas A.	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Lloyd, George Butler	Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton	Sugden, W. H.
Locker-Lampoon, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)	Purchase, H. G.	Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.
Lorden, John William	Raffan, Peter Wilson	Sutherland, Sir William
Lowther, Major C. (Cumberland, N.)	Randles, Sir John Scurrah	Sutton, John Edward
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)	Rankin, Captain James Stuart	Swan, J. E.
Macnaghten, Sir Malcolm	Remer, J. R.	Taylor, J.
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.	Renwick, Sir George	Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-	Richardson, Sir Alex. (Gravesend)	Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill)
Mallalieu, Frederick William	Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)	Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Manville, Edward	Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)	Thorpe, Captain John Henry
Marriott, John Arthur Ransoms	Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)	Townley, Maximilian G.
Mason, Robert	Roberts, Samuel (Hereford, Hereford)	Vickers, Douglas
Mitchell, Sir William Lane	Robertson, John	Waddington, R.
Molson, Major John Elsdale	Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)	Wallace, J.
Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.	Rodger, A. K.	Warner, Sir T. Courtenay T.
Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert	Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)	Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. D.
Murray, John (Leeds, West)	Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)	Weston, Colonel John Wakefield
Myers, Thomas	Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert Arthur	Wheler, Col. Granville C. H.
Naylor, Thomas Ellis	Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)	Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Neal, Arthur	Seager, Sir William	Wills, Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert Alan H.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)	Sexton, James	Windsor, Viscount
Nicholson, Brig.-Gen. J. (Westminster)	Shaw, William T. (Forfar)	Wintringham, Margaret
Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)	Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)	Wise, Frederick
O'Connor, Thomas P.	Shorts, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)	Young, Sir Frederick W, (Swindon)
Parker, James	Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)	Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Parkinson, Sir Albert L. (Blackpool)	Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)	Stanton, Charles Butt	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry	Starkey, Captain John Ralph	Colonel Leslie Wilson and Mr.
Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge. Mddx.)	Strauss, Edward Anthony	Dudley Ward.
Pennefather, De Fonblanque	Sturrock, J. Leng
NOES.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.	Hinds, John	Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)	Hirst, G. H.	Shaw, Thomas (Preston)
Cape, Thomas	Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)	Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)
Colfax, Major Wm. Phillips	Kidd, James	Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)
Conway, Sir W. Martin	Lunn, William	Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)
Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.	McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)	Wignall, James
Glills, William	Macquisten, F. A.
Grundy, T. W.	Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Guest, J. (York, W.R., Hemsworth)	Newbould, Alfred Ernest	Sir F. Banbury and Lieut.-Colonel
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)	Newson, Sir Percy Wilson	A. Murray.

Bill read a Second time, and committed a Standing Committee.