§ Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
§ Captain W. BENNOn a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I desire to submit a point to you. Standing Order 15, paragraph (5) says:
On a day so allotted, no business other than the business of Supply shall be taken before Eleven.This is a Supply Day so allotted, and under that paragraph I submit that no business other than the business of Supply can be taken. I can find nothing in this Standing Order which, dealing with the last two allotted days, permits the taking of any other business. Further, I would direct your attention to the fact that yesterday when it was desired to take business other than the business of Supply before 11 o'clock, a special Motion was put upon the Paper, moved, and carried. No such Motion has been carried to-day, and in these circumstances I submit that no other business can be taken before 11 o'clock other than the business of Supply?
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThe hon. and gallant Gentleman was better employed during the War than remaining here in this House. Had he done so, he would have known that, in 1916—I think it was—the whole of the outstanding Votes in 809 Supply were taken before 10 o'clock. It was then held that the allotted day was over when the business of Supply was finished.
§ Captain BENNDo I understand your ruling is that if the business of Supply set down for any particular day be concluded before 11 o'clock, other business can be taken; and if that be so, why was it necessary to move a special Resolution yesterday saying that Government business other than business of Supply may he taken before 11 o'clock?
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI do not say that it was necessary. It may have been put down ob majorem cantelam.
§ Captain BENNDo we understand that the protection which is provided by Standing Order 15 has disappeared owing to the precedent which you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, quoted of what happened in the year 1916? Do I understand that that precedent no longer stands, and that business other than business of Supply may be taken on a Supply Day?
Lieut.-Colonel J. WARDSurely the object of Standing Order 15 is to allow the House to have the whole of the time for discussion of Supply on a Supply day, and in order to guarantee that. Surely if the House find that it can conveniently deal with the whole of Supply before 10 o'clock, I suggest that there is no necessity whatever for the House to waste that portion of its time, and that we should be able to use that time for other business.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI have made some inquiries upon this matter, and it is quite clear that there is no rule against other business being taken to-day. I do not rule as to the Resolution put down yesterday.
§ Captain BENNThen am I right in assuming that the precedent which you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, have quoted has overridden that portion of Standing Order 15, and that the practice which has held good on other occasions of allowing 'the House to adjourn when the business of Supply on a Supply day was finished no longer holds good?
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI can hardly answer that point in regard to precedent without some further research. I think 810 it is a question which ought to be referred to Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. N. MACLEANWas not the precedent of 1916 adopted in view of the circumstances then prevailing, in order to facilitate business, and is it not a fact that you cannot now override the Standing Order unless it be amended?
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThe fact of the country, having been at War, did not override the Standing Orders of the House.
Mr. THOMASYou have just intimated, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that the principle involved in this matter should be determined by Mr. Speaker. The difficulty is that if the business with which we are proceeding be done, it will be impossible for Mr. Speaker to give a ruling upon it.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI am afraid I do not follow the point of Order raised by the right hon. Gentleman.
§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERMy point was that the precedent which occurred during the War was consistent with the Standing Order.
Mr. J. W. WILSONI think we ought to have some explanation as to why the Special Order was placed on the Paper yesterday, and not to-day.
§ Mr. SPEAKER took the Chair.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI understand the point is why was it necessary yesterday to have a Motion providing for other business being taken before 11 o'clock on a Supply day, why is that Motion not necessary to-day; and why, in the absence of that Motion, is it competent for the House to-day to proceed with other business? The answer to that question is, had other business been taken yesterday without that Motion, yesterday would not have counted as an allotted day of Supply, and then, instead of this being the twenty-first allotted day of Supply, it would have been the twentieth. When we come to the last day of Supply, and the House has finished the business of Supply, then Standing Order 15 ceases to operate. That is the reason why the Motion is not made on 811 the last day of Supply, and why it is competent, when the House has completed the business of Supply, to proceed with other business.
§ Captain BENNThen do we understand that to-day is not an allotted day?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe business of the allotted day having been completed, the operation of Standing Order 15 has no effect.
§ Captain BENNWe have just been dealing with the precedent of 1916. Am I to understand now that that is not the point at all? The Standing Order says that on a day so allotted no business other than business of Supply shall be taken before 11 o'clock. Frequently it has happened on Supply days that the Votes have been passed before 11 o'clock, and the House has been accustomed to rise when business of Supply has been finished. To-day is described on the Order Paper as the 21st allotted day. My submission is that, being an allotted day, it is covered by paragraph (5) of Standing Order 15, which says that on a day allotted to Supply no business other than business of Supply shall be taken before 11 o'clock. For these reasons I submit that it is out of Order to take the Post Office (Parcels) Bill or any other Bill to-night.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe first part of what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said is perfectly correct. If, on an ordinary allotted day, business other than business of Supply were taken before 11 o'clock, it would cease to count as an allotted day. That is the reason why the Government always places a Motion on the Paper. Otherwise they would not be able to count that as an allotted day. When, however, you come to the last Supply day, the position is very different. When the business of Supply has been finished, the Rule cannot apply to the business that is done afterwards. The business of Supply having been completed, Standing Order 15 is done with as far as this Session is concerned.