§ Colonel GRETTON (by Private Notice)asked the Lord Privy Seal if a statement can be made, and an assurance given, that vigorous and effective steps are being taken to preserve the lives of British subjects in Ireland and in England? Will the Government move the Adjournment of the House on Monday, in order that the question of the security of life in both countries may be considered?
Mr. CHAMBERLAIN (Leader of the House)Every possible step has been taken for the protection of life. As regards a discussion, as the House knows, Tuesday has been allocated for a discussion of Irish affairs. I think it would meet the wishes of the House if we take that Debate on Monday, instead of waiting for Tuesday, and postpone the discussion on the Committee stage of the Finance Bill till Tuesday. I propose to put down a Vote in Supply for Monday, and if, when we get into Committee of Supply, the Chairman's ruling upon the scope of the Debate should make it impossible to give that width to the discussion which under the circumstances the House desires, I will move the Adjournment of the House in order to allow the fullest latitude to the House. We shall be glad to give any information then that it is proper for us to make public. The House, may, perhaps, wish me to take the opportunity to add whatever I can to their knowledge of this matter.
There is no further information to report in regard to the assassination. The accused men will be brought before the magistrate this morning. In the meantime, as I am advised, I do not think it is desirable to make any further statement. Certain raids and searches took place last night, and, I may say, a considerable number of places were visited and searched. Sixteen people were detained—fifteen men and one woman. Some arms were discovered, and some incendiary tubes. As regards the condition of the wounded constables and the wounded civilian, I am thankful to say that all are progressing favourably. No operation has been found necessary in the case of Police-Constable Marsh, and it is confidently expected that he will recover.
§ Colonel GRETTONMay I further ask the right hon. Gentleman if the Government will call for all the reports from Scotland Yard, and give instructions that action shall be taken upon those reports where it is justified?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINCertainly, Sir. Immediately the House rose yesterday, some of us were in conference with the officials of Scotland Yard—the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary, other Ministers, and myself. Immediate steps were taken, and the searches of last 1535 night were the result of the orders then issued. The moment I can leave the House, with the Home Secretary, we are going to resume the conference to-day.
§ Colonel ASHLEYWhy did not these searches take place before the murder? Why are measures only being taken now, after one of our most distinguished Members has been killed?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINI put it to both of my hon. and gallant Friends and the House at large as to whether, as we are to have a discussion on Monday, it is not better to leave these matters of public anxiety to be gone into in the discussion, when they can be fully debated better than by question and answer this morning.
§ Mr. RONALD McNEILLIs it not a fact that recently, owing to the so-called improved relations between Ireland and this country, instructions were given to Scotland Yard that they need not concern themselves about these affairs as to which, until recently, they have been making reports to the Home Office?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINNo, Sir; no instructions of that kind were given. But undoubtedly it is the case that, owing to what was thought to be the improved conditions—[HON. MEMBERS: "Only by the Government"]—the police protection was removed, and, if I may say so, from Ministers as well as from certain others who had previously been under police protection.
§ Sir F. BANBURYIn view of the evident interest of the House in what took place yesterday, would it not be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to move the Adjournment now, in order that we may know something of what is going on?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINI would urge upon the House not to press that Motion. I do not wish to withhold anything from the House, but I think that Ministers should be in a better position to make the statement that the House desires on Monday than we can at this moment. As I say, there is at this moment a resumed conference with the Police Authorities, to which I propose to go as soon as I can, and I think that we could make a fuller and more satisfactory statement to the House on Monday than is possible at the present moment.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEECan the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Provisional Government has been asked to trace the antecedents of these murderers, and whether they have also been asked to arrest the leaders of the Irish Republican Brotherhood, who are their friends, and the people who send these murderers here?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINMr. Speaker, this is just one of the matters about which I should ask to be excused from making any statement to-day.
§ Sir JAMES REMNANTIs it the intention to call into the Conference, which is just going to be held, Sir Basil Thomson, whose splendid activities in tracking down the Sinn Fein gunmen and Republican Brotherhood in this city led to his dismissal?
§ Sir J. REMNANTYes, I have.
§ Mr. R. McNEILLHe has every right.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINWe shall call into consultation anybody who we think can assist us; but first, and foremost, those who are primarily responsible. I do not want to make a contrast between one police régime and another, but my hon. Friend must have a short memory, indeed, if he does not remember the series of violent outrages and murders which took place in London in the time of the police officer whom he mentions, without a single person being arrested.
§ Lieut.-Colonel JAMESIn making inquiries from Scotland Yard, will the right hon. Gentleman ascertain what results followed the report which I myself made to the Special Branch in regard to the landing of arms?
§ Mr. STEWARTCan the right hon. Gentleman say when these men came over from Ireland, and whether there is any supervision at all in regard to passengers passing between Ireland and this country?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINI cannot say when they came to this country, but I think I shall be right in saying that they have been in this country for a tong time.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEEWednesday week!
Mr. CHAMBERLAINIf the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows more than I do, and if he has evidence that these men came over on Wednesday week, I shall be much obliged if he will give it to me as soon as he can.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEEI will put down a question on Monday. I will deal with it then.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINI shall be obliged if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will give it to me now, before I leave the House.
§ Sir W. DAVISONWill the right hon. Gentleman say whether the service revolvers found on the murderers were part of the British arms handed over to the Provisional Government?
§ Mr. G. BALFOUROn Monday, will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to make a clear statement that Mr. Michael Collins, within the last two weeks, was not in direct contact with these murderers?
§ Sir W. DAVISONCan I have an answer to my question?
§ Mr. RAWLINSONCould not the right hon. Gentleman, with a view to allaying public anxiety, consider the desirability of the discussion taking place today? Does not that consideration outweigh any advantage in the discussion taking place on Monday? Otherwise we shall have a. Press discussion on this matter between now and Monday, and this is the place where information ought to be given, and where we ought to thrash out the case of national and Imperial importance.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINNo, Sir; I think the House will see the difficulty in which I am placed by the questions put to me. I have not the material to answer these questions at the present moment. I hope by Monday we shall be more fully informed, and be able to deal with matters to which we can give no answer at the present moment. I trust the House will think that not unreasonable. It is quite 1538 clear that at the earliest possible moment there should be a useful and full discussion, and I think Monday—when a large measure of information will be available—that discussion should take place is the earliest day that would fulfil the conditions.
Mr. G. MURRAYWill the right hon. Gentleman say when police protection, was removed, and upon whose advice such protection was removed?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINI could not give the exact date, but it was removed on the advice of the police authorities, when they thought it was no longer required.
§ Major Sir HENRY NORMANCan the right hon. Gentleman say if the statement which has appeared in the Press is correct, that some changes are to be made with regard to the admission of strangers to this House?
§ Sir W. DAVISONWill the right hon. Gentleman answer my question The police must know whether these military revolvers found on these men were part of the arms handed over to the Provisional Government by His Majesty's Government?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINThat is not a matter upon which I can give any answer at all at the present time. I do not think they were. I do not know whether these arms bear individual numbers which will enable them to be identified.
§ Sir J. REMNANTAre the police to be armed now, or will the right hon. Gentleman take this matter into consideration at the conference which is going to be held, seeing that people are liable to be murdered every day?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINThe House will remember that the question of arming the police has more than once come up, that the police themselves have never wished to carry arms, and have thought themselves to be better protected among the community when the community know that they do not carry arms. But, of course, these special circumstances of the present time must lead to a reconsideration of the question, although I do not necessarily say that we shall reverse the practice.
§ Sir W. DAVISONWill the right hon. Gentleman see that the thanks of the community are tendered to the gallant and unarmed men and women who assisted in the arrest of these men?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINYes, I will. It is because the question is addressed to me, and because the Prime Minister is engaged at this moment in a conference dealing with this very matter. If the hon. Member will permit me to say so, I have the honour to be the Leader of the House, and my hon. and gallant Friend below the Gangway (Colonel Gretton) addressed the question to me. I think it is my duty, whether the Prime Minister be present or not, to deal with matters concerning the conduct of business. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Lloyd George) is engaged at the moment in a conference on these very matters.
§ Captain WEDGWOOD BENNDoes not the Leader of the House think that in a matter of grave national importance of t his kind the Prime Minister should be here?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINNo, I think if there is someone here competent to answer for the Government, the Prime Minister is more fruitfully occupied presiding over the conference to which I have referred.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEEI ask the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the police on special duty outside Sir Henry Wilson's house were unarmed, in spite of the fact that his life was threatened, and whether, in view of what has happened, the head of the branch responsible has tendered his resignation or whether he will be required to do so?
§ The SECRETARY OF STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Shortt)The police outside Sir Henry Wilson's house were unarmed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame!"] The police were unarmed by their own desire. I would remind the House that arms are provided at every police station, and the police take them when they choose on special occasions. But it has not been thought right to compel the police to carry arms, if they do not wish to do so. We have no information, either from the Northern Irish 1540 Government or from any other source, of any threat on the life of Sir Henry Wilson. No one has tendered his resignation, and it is not intended that anyone should be required to do so.
§ Colonel ASHLEYWere there any police on special duty outside Sir Henry Wilson's house?
§ Mr. SHORTTNo; there were no police on special duty at all.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEEIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that there were police, at any rate, in the vicinity between Lord Carson's house and Sir Henry Wilson's house, and that they were unarmed? When I put the question down, I understood that there were police on special duty in plain clothes, who ought to have been armed, and it was in reference to them that I put the question. But apparently they had been withdrawn. I ask if these special detectives had been withdrawn from Sir Henry Wilson's house, and whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that there was a warning, which I have seen myself, from Scotland Yard within the last few weeks?
§ Mr. SHORTTI am not aware of the latter part of the question. I do not think that Sir Henry Wilson was ever specially guarded.
§ Colonel ASHLEYIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that, as Chief of the General Staff, Sir Henry Wilson had special men looking after him?
§ Mr. SHORTTYes, while he was Chief of the General Staff, but not since he came to this House.
§ Sir F. BANBURYWere the police armed?
§ Mr. SHORTTI cannot say without making inquiry, because no policeman is bound to carry arms, and they may or may not choose to take weapons with them.
Lieut.-Colonel J. WARDHas the right hon. Gentleman really considered that part of his answer to the effect that no warning has ever been given to Scotland Yard, or that Scotland Yard itself had not already, some three weeks ago, warned Sir Henry Wilson's friends that he was in extreme danger; and, in view of that fact, how does that part of his answer conform to the facts?
§ Mr. SHORTTI have no such information, and, indeed, it is absolutely contrary to the information that was given to me last night, when this terrible occurrence was being investigated.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ARCHER-SHEEAs it was obvious that Sir Henry Wilson was in great danger of his life, in view of the action he had taken, and as the right hon. Gentleman is responsible, will he consider the propriety of resigning himself?
§ Mr. R. McNEILLArising out of that part of the right hon. Gentleman's answer in which he said there.were no police on special duty, I want to ask if Sir Henry Wilson was one of the men whom the Government thought required no protection, because of the policy of the Government? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] May I have an answer to that question, because I have some information on that point from Sir Henry Wilson and other people?
§ Mr. SHORTTI am not aware of any such reason.
§ Mr. McNEILLDid the Home Secretary not write a letter himself to Lord Carson to the same effect a short time ago?
§ Mr. SHORTTI am not ware of it.
§ Mr. McNEILLI have seen the letter.
§ Mr. INSKIPThe last information which was given us was that last night the right hon. Gentleman had definitely received a report from an official of Scotland Yard that no warning had been received with regard to Sir Henry Wilson. If that be so, will he say who the official of Scotland Yard was who made that report?
§ Mr. SHORTTMy information was that Scotland Yard had no information that Sir Henry Wilson's life was threatened. Scotland Yard receives an enormous number of anonymous letters about all sorts of people.
§ Mr. McNEILLHave they no common sense?
§ Captain Viscount CURZONWith regard to the Debate on Monday, will the matter be placed before the House in such a way that it will be possible for the House to record its vote upon the subject?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINIt will certainly be possible to do that in Supply, if we can take the discussion which the House desires in Supply, or on the Motion for the Adjournment.
§ Sir WILLIAM RAEBURNIf it be not politic to arm the police, would it not be well to keep some fire-arms in the police stations?
§ Sir J. REMNANTThey are kept there.
§ Sir W. RAEBURNYesterday there seems to have been no attempt to use these arms to bring the murderers down, though one would have thought that there would have been.
Mr. G. MURRAYCan the Home Secretary say when police protection was removed? How long ago is it since it was removed? The Leader of the House says he does not know.
§ Mr. SHORTTI am afraid I cannot give the exact date, but it was some weeks ago. It was removed from everyone, I think, except the Chief Secretary for Ireland—probably about a month ago.
Mr. MURRAYUpon whose advice was it done? Was it upon the advice of one particular person at Scotland Yard?
§ Mr. SHORTTOh, no.
§ Mr. SHORTTIt was done on the advice of all those at Scotland Yard who had any knowledge of the subject, and, after careful consideration, we came to the conclusion that the protection was no longer necessary. It was removed from everyone of us.
§ Mr. LYLEWill the Home Secretary, in view of what he has heard to-day in the House, make further inquiries from the police authorities as to whether he has made a mistake, or been misinformed, as to a warning having been given?
§ Mr. SHORTTOf course, the first thing I shall do when I leave this House will be to ask about these suggested warnings. I know nothing of them.
§ Colonel GRETTONAre we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman consulted the police authorities, and consented to the withdrawal of police protection?
§ Mr. SHORTTYes, and I consulted my colleagues, too.
§ Sir HERBERT NIELDWill the right hon. Gentleman, from this moment forward, take care that eve person whom the Government regard as a "distinguished person" in relation to this matter shall be carefully guarded, lest there be reprisals for the arrest of these men?
§ Mr. SHORTTYes; of course, the guard will be renewed.
§ Sir H. NIELDI mean for every distinguished person in relation to this matter.