HC Deb 23 July 1922 vol 155 cc1602-7

This Act shall not apply to a local authority unless and until— (a) it shall have been adopted by such local authority by a resolution passed by a majority of the members of such local authority, at a meeting called for the purpose, of which a mouth's previous notice shall be given to each member of such local authority, and such notice shall be accompanied with a copy of this Act, together with an estimate certified by an actuary of the cost to the local authority of adopting this Act; and such resolution shall also have been confirmed by such local authority at their immediately succeeding regular meeting held not less than one month after the passing of such resolution:

Provided that in the ease of a local authority having a superannuation fund or scheme in operation, whether under the provisions of a local Act or otherwise, the adoption of this Act by such local authority shall not take effect unless and until it shall have been agreed to by not less than two-thirds of the officers and by not less than two-thirds of the servants who are respectively members of, contributors to, or interested in such fund or scheme, and unless and until a scheme has been submitted to and approved by the Minister of Health for the application of the provisions of this Act to persons interested in the said fund or scheme and for the protection of the rights of such persons: and this Act shall, in its application to any such persons, have effect subject to the provisions of any scheme so approved: Provided, further, that such adoption by a local authority shall not affect any private interest which shall have been regulated by any local Act; and (b) such resolution shall have been approved of by the Minister of Health.

The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Alfred Mond)

I beg to move, in paragraph (a), after the word "majority" ["resolution passed by a majority"], to insert the words" consisting of not less than two-thirds."

The object of this Amendment and the next Amendment is to provide that no superannuation scheme shall be introduced by a local authority unless there be a majority of not less than two-thirds of the members of the council present and voting. This is for the protection of the ratepayers, to guard against a superannuation scheme being adopted by a council by a narrow and inadequate majority. It is the result of a good deal of consideration and negotiation as to the best method of dealing with this problem. The suggestion of a poll was discussed in Committee, and finally it was decided, after consultation with the leading representatives of local authorities, that the method now proposed would probably afford the protection required, and be the most practical way of carrying it out, without involving expense.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment proposed: In paragraph (a), after the word" authority" [members of such local authority "], to insert the words "present and voting."—[Sir A. Mond.]

Sir F. BANBURY

I am not sure I agree with this Amendment. The Clause, as it appears, says it shall have been adopted by such local authority by a resolution passed by a majority of the members of such local authority. The proposal that there must be a two-thirds majority is, I think, a good one, but if you are going to say that that majority must be of the members "present and voting," that makes a very considerable difference, because a meeting might be held at a rather inconvenient time, when only a small number of members were present, who might be able to pass something which might throw a very considerable burden upon the ratepayers. I certainly shall oppose this.

3.0 P.M.

Sir H. NIELD

I regret exceedingly that my right hon. Friend should have offered this objection. We have striven in Committee, and since the Committee stage, to try to get into agreement, and we have come to an agreement. Surely, if my right hon. Friend will look at the Clause, he will see the protection it gives. First of all, a meeting is to be called for the express purpose of passing this Resolution; secondly, a month's previous notice must be given to each member of the local authority, accompanied with a copy of the Act and an estimate certified by an actuary of the cost to the local authority of adopting the Bill, and such resolution shall have been confirmed by the authority at their immediately succeeding regular meeting held not less than one month after the passing of the resolution. Surely those safeguards are amply sufficient to secure the attendance of all members of the local authority who desire to attend on the day of the consideration of the resolution.

Sir F. BANBURY

The Clause as it originally stood says it shall have been adopted by such local authority by a resolution passed by a majority of the members of such local authority. Therefore if there are 40 members on the local authority, it would require 21 to vote in favour of it, for it to be successful. The Amendment would mean that the resolution could be carried if there were only a small number present.

Sir H. NIELD

I do not appreciate the interruption in the least. Here is a definite statement that the meeting is called for a specific purpose. The word "majority" was certainly understood in Committee to mean a majority of those present and voting, because when a discussion arose in Committee with regard to what that majority should consist of when the poll was being proposed, I myself suggested that my right hon. Friend should have an absolute majority of the council. There are many of us on the county council, district council or parish council who know perfectly well the numerous things that occur to prevent members who desire to attend from being present to vote for a motion. The Clause provides every safeguard.

Mr. J. JONES

We on these benches support the principle of the Bill, and we also very much appreciate the opposition of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury). A short time ago we were discussing the trade union position, and the, right hon. Baronet, with others, tried, to the best of their ability, to prevent us from having the right to decide by a majority vote, what we should do in our trade union business. He laid down the very principle contained here, that we should have at least a two-thirds majority of the members voting in the direction of applying political funds in the matter of the Labour party. I cannot understand why he departs from that principle this afternoon.

Sir F. BANBURY

I have not laid down any principle of which I know.

Mr. JONES

The right hon. Gentleman never does lay down any principle —only convenience. As a member of a local authority, I venture to suggest that the officials have been very generous in offering to pay towards their pensions. A large number of other officials do not pay towards their pensions, although they get very well pensioned. What is the matter here? The local town council taxes its officials for the purposes of a pension fund, and these officials agree to the tax. It has been said that when a vote is to be taken it must be carried by at least two-thirds of the total members of the council. As a matter of fact, that is impossible. There are over 700 Members of this House. Take any Division you like when we are imposing laws and taxation upon the people. Take this week, when we have been discussing matters of life and death to large numbers of the people in the matter of finance. Has there been two-thirds of the Members present, to say nothing of voting?

Sir F. BANBURY

There ought to have been.

Mr. JONES

You would lay it down as law?

Sir F. BANBURY

I would, certainly.

Mr. JONES

You would, certainly. But, as it is, you are going to make it impossible for the thing to be done. I wish to God this House were representative of the people in a real sense of the term. If the Labour party had accepted a Clause of this description, it would have prevented hon. Members opposite from introducing more taxation, and it would have prevented us from introducing reductions. If you want to give protection to the public, make every public representative attend to his business. Then there would not be any business men on public bodies, because they would not be able to attend. Such a regulation would help me very considerably. A two-thirds majority ought to be able to safeguard any interest, and if the people who believe in the ratepayers have not got the capacity to attend, or find it impossible to attend, they are not representing the ratepayers, and instead of being business representatives they are simply there for the purpose of their personal honour. This safeguard is sufficient for anybody. Two-thirds of the members present are sufficient guarantee in this matter.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment proposed: In paragraph (a) leave out the words and such notice shall be accompanied with a copy of this Act."—[Sir H. Nield.]

Sir F. BANBURY

I do not know that I really quite follow the object of this Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend—

Sir H. NIELD

It is moved on the grounds of economy.

Sir F. BANBURY

Oh yes, I know. But I do not think it is in the nature of economy. The effect of it all may be to impose great burdens upon the ratepayers and I do not know that I approve of it.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In paragraph (a), leave out the words "their immediately succeeding" ["at their immediately succeeding regular meeting"], and insert instead thereof "a."[Mr. Rodger.]

Sir A. MOND

I beg to move, in paragraph (a), to leave out the words Provided that in the ease of a local authority having a superannuation fund or scheme in operation, whether under the provisions of a local Act or otherwise, the adoption of this Act by such local authority shall not take effect unless and until it shall have been agreed to by not less than two-thirds of the officers and by not less than two-thirds of the servants who are respectively members of, contributors to, or interested in such fund or scheme, and unless and until a scheme has been submitted to and approved by the Minister of Health for the application of the provisions of this Act to persons interested in the said fund or scheme and for the protection of the rights of such persons; and this Act shall, in its application to any such persons, have effect subject to the provisions of any scheme so approved: Provided further, that such adoption by a local authority shall not affect any private interest which shall have been regulated by any local Act. I do so because this proviso is now quite unnecessary.

Amendment agreed to.