§ 10. Sir W. DAVISONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is 1877 the total number of refugees from Southern Ireland who have applied for assistance to the British Government; what is the nature of the assistance given and the total amount expended to date; what is the total number and amount of the claims which have been lodged in respect of damage to person and property in Southern Ireland; how many of such claims have so far been dealt with; and what is the total amount of compensation which has been paid?
§ The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Churchill)The total number of refugees from Ireland who have applied for assistance to the Committee presided over by my hon. Friend the Member for Chelsea is 425, and assistance has been granted to 337 of these cases. In about 90 per cent. of the cases dealt with by the Committee the applicants came from Southern Ireland. The assistance given by the Committee consists of giants of money or loans on the security of malicious injury decrees. The amount expended in grants is £1,956 and in loans £1,365. I regret that I cannot give the figures asked for by the hon. Member in the latter part of his question, but it may assist him if I state that the number of decrees awarded to supporters of the Crown in respect of criminal injuries to the person prior to 11th July last, all of which will fall to be paid by the British Government, is approximately 1,750 since 1st April last. Final payments have been made in 261 of these cases and interim payments in 726 cases, the amount of money so expended being £390,000.
§ Sir W. DAVISONWhat is the position of the people referred to in the latter part of the question, who have obtained decrees, but are in urgent need of funds with which to carry on? Do I understand temporary assistance will be given to them, even though the whole payment may not immediately be available?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLYes, Sir.
§ Captain CRAIGAre we to understand from the answer that, at any rate, a certain number of people from Northern Ireland have applied for assistance to this Committee? The right hon. Gentleman states there are 90 per cent. from Southern Ireland; are we to understand 1878 10 per cent. of these people come from Northern Ireland?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLYes, I think so.
§ Captain CRAIGWhat class of oppression do they complain of or on what ground do they apply for assistance from this fund?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI shall have to ask the Chairman of the Committee.
Mr. GIDEON MURRAYHas any further sum been allotted to the Committee over which the hon. and gallant Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) presides?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI do not think the need has yet arisen. Undoubtedly, if more money were needed, that would be a matter which the Treasury would have to take into consideration.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLIt is also a fact that only £3,000 has been distributed so far.
19. Mr. MURRAYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that there are many Trish refugees congregated in the western ports of Ireland who are unable to obtain transport to Great Britain owing to lack of steamers and owing to the cargo steamers which call at those ports being prevented by Board of Trade Regulations from carrying more than a very limited number of passengers: and whether the Government will take steps to provide transportation for these unfortunate people?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLHis Majesty's Government is aware that a situation exists in certain of the western ports of Ireland comparable with that described by my hon. Friend. The shipping companies operating upon the western coast have, with the approval of the Board of Trade, instructed the captains of their vessels to accept passengers wishing to cross to this side in emergency without reference to the number allowed to be carried under the vessel's certificate, provided that the number of passengers so carried is not, in the captain's opinion, 1879 in excess of what it is safe for the vessel to carry.
Mr. MURRAYIs the right hon. Gentleman taking steps to find out and get into touch with the situation in these western ports?
§ Mr. CHURCHILLI have received from the Admiralty assistance in the shape of a good many of His Majesty's vessels which are cruising in the neighbourhood of Irish ports and putting in from time to time, but I have no means of acquainting myself with the situation which prevails inland at the present time in districts which are occupied by the Republican forces.
Mr. MURRAYIs the Government taking any steps to bring away all these refugees? Supposing a similar case existed on the coast of France and there were civil war, would not the Government bring them away? In view of the unsatisfactory reply given, I beg to give notice, Mr. Speaker, that at the end of Questions I will ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House in order to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance.
§ A t the end of Questions—
Mr. MURRAYI beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, "The failure of the Government to take adequate steps to provide for the transportation of Irish refugees from the western seaports of Ireland, and the insufficient means employed by the Government to deal with the relief of the Irish refugees."
§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYBefore that question be put, and leave asked, may I suggest that the word "western" would very much narrow the discussion which may take place? Would it not be better to strike out the word "western" and let it read simply the "coast of Ireland," so that the state of the refugees from Northern Ireland may also be argued?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI think that that would make the question more indefinite than it is, and it fails already on the ground of indefiniteness. The hon. Member for St. Rollox (Mr. G. Murray) 1880 introduces two quite different questions. With regard to the first, it is, except as far as the Board of Trade is concerned—and on that an answer was given in the House during Questions—outside the jurisdiction of this Government; and the latter part is entirely indefinite.
Mr. MURRAYSupposing that there were British refugees assembled on the coast of France or any other country, it surely would be incumbent upon this Government to send vessels in order to bring them to this country? The same position exists in Ireland to-day, and the Government, although it is very largely due to their policy that these refugees are congregated where they are in these western ports—and I submit that that is not indefinite, because there are five well-known western ports on the coast of Ireland—the Government, notwithstanding that they know that those refugees are there, have told us at Question Time that they are unable to provide adequate transportation to bring them from those places.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLThat is quite inaccurate.
§ Mr. SPEAKERCertainly that was not my idea of the answer. The hon. Member in his question asked if the Board of Trade Regulations would be relaxed in the case of steamers calling at those ports, and the answer given, a I heard it, was that instructions had been given to that effect, subject only to the safety of the ships.
Mr. MURRAYIn the last part of the question I asked that adequate transportation should be given. The words exactly are, "and whether the Government will take steps to provide transportation for these unfortunate people."
§ Mr. CHURCHILLOn a point of Order. May I submit to you that no evidence has been brought before the House or the Government that the transportation which is available is not adequate to the comparatively small number of persons who wish to leave?
Mr. MURRAYOn that point, the right hon. Gentleman in his reply implied that there was insufficient accommodation. He said that he had given instructions, or instructions had been given, to men-of-war and steamers to be on the look-out.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLCertainly. In order to meet any emergency which might arise at some particular point, the ships have been given this latitude, but that dealt only with a contingency which has hardly at all arisen so far, and does not at all represent the general state of affairs in Ireland.
§ Sir FREDERICK BANBURYMay I ask the hon. Member for St. Rollox (Mr. G. Murray) if he will substitute, for the words "the western seaports of Ireland," the name of three ports? Would that make the question sufficiently definite to allow you, Mr. Speaker, to allow the hon. Member to ask leave to move the Adjournment?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI am afraid I must have some prima facie evidence of neglect on the part of the Government, and I have no such evidence.
Vice-Admiral Sir R. HALLMay I put this point? The point at issue is whether the House is to understand that the removal of these refugees is a matter, as some suggest, of private enterprise, or whether it is one for the Government to undertake.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThere, also I must have some prima facie evidence that there are persons with regard to whom the Government has an obligation, and that is a point on which I have no evidence at present.
§ Lord HUGH CECILMay I ask whether it belongs to the functions of the Chair to determine what are really the merits of the question, and not strictly to confine itself to the question of order?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI think it is my duty to look for prima facie evidence of an allegation, in order to be sure that it is urgent, definite, and of public importance.
§ Mr. SPEAKERLet us imagine the Noble Lord coming with any allegation he might make, and asking leave to move the Adjournment of the House. It would then be my duty to administer the Rule for the purpose for which it was intended.