HC Deb 05 December 1922 vol 159 cc1579-84

(1) His Majesty may, by Order in Council.— (d) make such provision with respect to the management of the National Debt and Government Securities and Annuities (including India Stock) as may be necessary to secure that the management thereof shall not as respects any part thereof be transacted within the Irish Free State; and any such Order in Council may contain such supplemental, consequential and incidental provisions as may appear necessary or proper for the purposes of the Order, and any such Order shall, subject to revocation or alteration by a subsequent Order, have effect as if enacted in this Act.

Lords Amendment:

In Sub-section (1, d), leave out the words "as respects any part thereof," and insert except to such extent as may be authorised by the Order.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Douglas Hogg)

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The question raised by this Amendment is quite a simple one. It arises under Clause 6, Sub-section (1, d), by which leave was given to make arrangements by Order in Council with regard to the management of the National Debt and Government securities and annuities, so that the management shall not as respect any part thereof be transacted within the Irish Free State. It has been pointed out that the result of the Clause as it stands would be that either the whole management of the Debt would have to be removed or it would have to be left just as it is at present. The purpose of the Amendment is to secure a certain elasticity, so that, if thought advisable, the management can be partly removed and partly allowed to remain where it is. It seems to the Government that is a reasonable course to pursue, and that it will assist in arranging the necessary Order.

Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN

I do not rise to criticise the decision to which the Government have come, but to ask for a little further explanation as to what lies behind the Amendment and what is the real meaning of it. It would seem to me that the natural place for the management of the National Debt under the new circumstances was London. Do the Government contemplate that they will keep a register in Dublin as well as in London, and, if so, for what reason? Is it a question purely of convenience as regards the management of the debt, or is it a question partly of the rights to the proceeds of taxation raised upon the interest of the debt and affected by the place where the register is kept? I would ask my right hon. and learned Friend to answer those questions if he would be good enough. I do not rise to criticise, but only in the hope that by his aid I may understand.

Sir D. HOGG

The Amendment does not introduce any new provision in order to exclude or include Dublin. Under the Bill as it left this House, power was given to remove the debt altogether, but one either had to remove it altogether or leave it just as it is now. At present there is a register in Dublin and a register in London, and stockholders can be registered in whichever they please. It has been thought that it might be desirable at any rate to alter to some extent that provision having regard to the considerations which my right hon. Friend has pointed out as to taxation and also to convenience of management, and we are taking power here by Order in Council to do that to such extent as seems desirable, of course reserving to Parliament, by the express language of the Section, power to revise any action that we may take.

Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER

Will this Amendment cover the point which I raised in Committee and also enable the Joint Exchequer Board to set up machinery which will not be overlapping as between the Board of Inland Revenue in this country and the collecting authority in the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland.

Sir D. HOGG

This has nothing to do with the collection of taxation in Northern Ireland. This is only a matter of the register as between Dublin and London.

Sir JOHN SIMON

It seems to me that the right lion, and learned Gentleman has not answered the question put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. A. Chamberlain). I quite follow, and the House follows, that there was some change made, and that, as the Bill left this House there would be power to make an Order in Council which would exclude this matter altogether from the territory of the Irish Free State, or allow things to remain as they are, and I quite follow that by the modified words as proposed it would be able to make a more partial arrangement. But that does not seem to answer the question put by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, whether this change or the proposal as a whole has any effect in deciding how the proceeds of taxation may be distributed according to the place where people register.

Sir D. HOGG

Undoubtedly, it might have an effect because it might affect, for example, provisions as to Income Tax and as to Estate Duty by reason of the place in which the particular stock was registered. The House, however, will remember that this matter was discussed in Committee when there was an Amendment to omit this Sub-section, and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer then explained that we were not necessarily going to act under this power, but we thought it necessary to be armed with the power, and an undertaking was given that before actually acting we would give consideration to and hear representations from both the Irish Government and any other interested parties, which include, among other persons, the Dublin stockbrokers and the Bank of Ireland itself.

Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendment:

In Sub-section (1, d), after the word "State," insert or to enable the business of the Bank of Ireland in relation thereto to he partly transacted at an office of the Bank of Northern Ireland, and in the latter case to apply in respect of any securities or annuities inscribed or registered in the books and registers kept at such office the provisions applicable in respect of securities and annuities inscribed or registered in the books and registers kept at the Bank of England or the Bank of Ireland;

Sir D. HOGG

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The purpose of this Amendment is to fulfil a promise which was given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer during the Debate in Committee upon this Clause, when he stated that, if he found that under this Clause there was no power to make arrangements for those domiciled in Northern Ireland to be able to remove the registration to Belfast, and if that be more convenient than London, then he would have words suggested in another place, and they would come before the House of Commons again. My right hon. Friend has ascertained that in order to fulfil that intention it is necessary to have these words added. If we want power to open a register in Belfast, it may be necessary to have these words, and, in pursuance of that pledge, we now move to have them added.

Mr. WISE

Supposing the books and registers are kept at the bank of Northern Ireland, may I ask what the cost will be, and whether the Government are satisfied as to the standing of this bank? I know that it is an old bank, but banks change, and it is important from a business point of view that the standing of the bank should be taken into consideration. May I also ask whether there is any precedent for such a thing being carried on in this way?

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Ormsby-Gore)

I think my hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. It does not refer to the Northern Bank of Ireland, but to the Belfast branch of the Bank of Ireland, which, when this Bill becomes an Act, will become the Bank of Northern Ireland—the State bank, as it were The register now in the Bank of Ireland in Dublin will, for those domiciled in Northern Ireland; be transferred to the Bank of Ireland branch at Belfast, and that Bank of Ireland branch in Belfast will become known in future as the Bank of Northern Ireland.

Mr. WISE

Cannot that be altered? It is very misleading. What would be the consequence?

Sir F. BANBURY

This gives the Bank of Ireland the right to use the offices of another bank in the North of Ireland. The Amendment says or to enable the business of the Bank of Ireland in relation thereto to be partly transacted at an office of the Bank of Northern Ireland. If that does not mean that the Bank of Ireland is to have the right to transact part of its business in the office of another bank in Northern Ireland, I do not know what it does mean.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

The Clerk at the Table points out that in the print circulated to the House there is a very important misprint, and that instead of the words being "the Bank of Northern Ireland," it should be "the Bank in Northern Ireland." It is quite clear that it is the Bank of Ireland, and the bank referred to is the Belfast branch of the Bank of Ireland.

Sir F. BANBURY

In these circumstances, will it not be necessary to move an Amendment to leave out the word "of," and to insert instead thereof the word "in"?

Mr. SPEAKER

I had observed the misprint, and corrected it in my copy. It is quite correct in the Bill.

Mr. A. CHAMBERLAIN

I am still not quite clear. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for the Colonies said that the branch of the Bank of Ireland, situated in Belfast, will become the Bank of Northern Ireland. Does he mean that the Bank of Ireland will be divided into two in future, and that there will be that part of the Bank of Ireland which remains in the Free State existing as one independent institution, and that those branches which were in the six counties are to exist as a wholly separate and independent institution?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

No. The institution will remain entirely the same. The misprint must have misled me on this point. I think I can now make it quite clear. The only tiling that will be divided is the register. There will be two separate registers, but the Corporation of the Bank of Ireland will not be separated.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN

I am quite satisfied.

Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.