§ Arrangements may be made by any Department of the Government of the United Kingdom for the exercise and performance on behalf of that Department of any powers or duties of that Department by officers of a Department of the Government of Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland, or by any Department of the Government of Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland for the exercise and performance on behalf of that Department of any powers or duties of that Department by officers of a Department of the Government of the United Kingdom, or by officers of a Department of the Government of Northern Ireland or Southern Ireland, as the case may be, on such terms and conditions as may be agreed:
§ Provided that no such arrangements shall diminish in any respect the responsibility of the Department by which the arrangement is made.
§ Mr. D. M. WILSONI beg to move, after the word "Ireland" ["Ireland, or by any Department"], to insert the words "or by officers of the Council of Ireland."
Ths is a Clause to enable Departments of the Government of the United Kingdom to make arrangements for the exercise and performance on behalf of the particular Department of any powers or duties of that Department by officers of a Department of the Government of Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland, and this Amendment proposes to include officers of the Council of Ireland amongst those with whom arrangements can be made.
§ Captain W. BENNWe all know that there is going to be an Ulster Parliament, and that the rest is going to be done by Dublin Castle. In that case, how is this complicated operation of inter-Departmental management to work, when everybody will be nominated by Dublin Castle 113 except in the case of the Parliament in Belfast? This is purely a fantastic image in which not a single Member of the House believes. An explanation as to what will be the exact value of this Clause under the circumstances I have mentioned might contribute to our conception of what will really happen if and when this Bill passes.
§ Lord H. CECILI hope that the question of the hon. and gallant Gentleman will receive a reply. As I understand, this Amendment applies to the Clause to the Council of Ireland. The Clause now refers to two Governments in Ireland, but it is far more likely that there are going to be four, or there might be four. There is certainly going to be the Council of Ireland, and in a new Clause an Order-in-Council may direct that certain things may be done. I understand the object of this Clause is to facilitate the smooth working between the different departments of the rather complicated machinery of this Bill.
§ Mr. FISHERI wonder my hon. and gallant Friend (Captain W. Benn) thought fit to ask his question, because if he reads the Suspensory Clause, which we shall discuss later, he will see that in the unfortunate event of the Southern Parliament not functioning there will be a nominated Assembly, and the Council of Ireland will also operate. The administrative dispositions of this Clause will be carried out, whether the Legislature in the South is nominated or elected.
§ Sir H. CRAIKDoes this mean that a Department of the United Kingdom is to carry out, say, agricultural functions through the Irish Agricultural Department or police arrangements through the police in Ireland—
§ Earl WINTERTONSeveral hon. Gentlemen have questions to put on this Clause generally, and is the hon. Member not going outside the scope of the Amendment?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANA general discussion of the Clause would take place on the question that the Clause stand part.
§ Sir H. CRAIKI should have thought it would be better to consider on this Amendment what would be the general 114 working of the Clause. Are these arrangements as to police, law, agriculture or customs to be carried out by the Departments in Ireland on the responsibility of the Department in the United Kingdom which makes the arrangements?
§ Earl WINTERTONAs it seems we can raise the whole question on this Amend ment—
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI did not rule to that effect. The Amendment is to insert the words "or by officers of the Council of Ireland." That does not mean it is a question of the whole Clause.
§ Earl WINTERTONI do not propose to go beyond the scope of the remarks just made by my hon. Friend. I think we should be grateful to the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain W. Benn) for putting a question on this Clause, which seems to me a curious one, and which otherwise might have been passed sub silentio. I think it is very desirable when a point is raised from the Front Opposition Bench that a reply should be made. This Clause says: Arrangements may be made by any Department of the Government of the United Kingdom for the exercise and performanace on behalf of that Department of any powers or duties of that Department by officers of a Department of the Government of Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland, and it is now proposed to add the words "or by officers of the Council of Ireland." That will add to the confusion which already exists in the Clause by giving power to make arrangements with another Department. Without fuller explanation I think it would be undesirable to pass either this Clause or the Amendment. The last thing we want to do is to give Departments more power than they already possess. Any Clause which allows a Department of the United Kingdom to make arrangements with Departments of the Irish Government seems to me to be very dangerous. If any such arrangements are to be made they should be made, not through Departments, but through the Government of the United Kingdom with the Parliaments in Ireland. I do not understand why we should propose to allow a Department of one Government to make arrangements with a Department of another Government. It is a proposal in accordance with the procedure adopted in so many Government Departments and which 115 the Government themselves are adopting, and that is of doing things through Departmental rather than through Cabinet responsibility. That I regard as a dangerous proposal.
§ 6.0 P.M.
§ Mr. FISHERI agree that the Committee is entitled to further information on this Clause. Let me observe, in the first place, that this is a purely permissive Clause. It enables arrangements to be made between a Department of the United Kingdom and a Department either of the Northern or of the Southern Parliament in Ireland, and we are here proposing to insert an Amendment to enable such arrangements also to be made between any of these Departments and any Department of the Council of Ireland. My right hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik) wanted to know how this would work and what is the purpose of it. We are proposing in this Bill to entrust to the Council of Ireland functions in connection with railways and with fisheries. Is it extravagant to enable the Council of Ireland, which deals with fisheries, to make administrative arrangements with the Agricultural Departments either of Northern Ireland or of Southern Ireland, or is it extravagant to ask the Council of Ireland, which deals with railways, to make such arrangements as may seem to be convenient and suitable with that Department of the Imperial Government concerned with the collection of Customs and Excise? That seems to be a mere matter of administrative routine and convenience. The Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) is afraid of departmental tyranny, but let me draw his attention to the last words of this Clause—
Provided that no such arrangements shall diminish in any respect the responsibility of the Department by which the arrangement is made.
§ Earl WINTERTONResponsibility to whom?
§ Mr. FISHERThe responsibility of a Northern Irish Department will be to the Parliament of Northern Ireland, of a Southern Irish Department to the Parliament of Southern Ireland, and of a Department of the Government of the United Kingdom to this House. In any case the responsibility would be on the Minister responsible for the Department. 116 In the case of the Council I would remind the Noble Lord that the Council is to be elected by the two Parliaments in Ireland, and although it is true that the responsibility in that instance is not so direct, yet there is an indirect responsibility to the Northern and Southern electors. This Clause really is not a Clause of any great constitutional importance, but it is a Clause which will have a definite administrative convenience, and I hope I have satisfied the Committee that it should be retained in the Bill.
§ Mr. INSKIPThe right hon. Gentleman has done his best to satisfy the Committee, but I confess I am quite mystified by this Clause. We shall, I am sure, be only too happy if it will facilitate the transfer of proper duties to the Council or to the Northern or Southern Parliament, if these Governments come into existence and show themselves competent and willing parts of the Government of the United Kingdom and of Ireland, but one of the objections to this Clause seems to me to be that it is so permissive, and that it is drawn in such a way, that the vagueness of it really gives us no guide as to the use which is likely to be made of it. The proviso, coupled with the Amendment to be proposed later, mystifies me too, because the proviso says, with the Amendment, that "no such arrangement shall diminish in any respect the responsibility of the Department [or Council] by which the arrangement is made. The only Department whose responsibility could be diminished by such an arrangement is a Department of the Government of the United Kingdom, and I cannot understand how the responsibility of a Department of either the Northern or Southern Government in Ireland, or of the Council, could be diminished by having a duty put upon it. Therefore I think the real object of the proviso is to prevent a Government Department of the United Kingdom coming down and saying that under Clause 61 of the Government of Ireland Act they have transferred certain duties to the Government of Northern or Southern Ireland or of the Council, and that, therefore, they are no longer responsible to the House of Commons for the performance of such duties.
If that is the intention of the proviso, does it not show the fog in which the draughtsman was in that it is now proposed to insert the words "or Council"? 117 I suggest that the draughtsman's doubtfulness only arose from the vagueness of his instructions. I want to ask another question. Arrangements may be made by any Department of the Government of the United Kingdom; are they to be revocable or irrevocable? Supposing my right hon. Friend opposite (Sir D. Maclean) and the hon. and gallant Gentleman beside him (Captain W. Benn) are responsible for the Government, and they think it may be convenient to transfer the duties and the powers of Government Departments to the Council of Ireland; when they cease to hold office, will those arrangements which they have made be revocable by, shall I say, a more sane or a more competent Government? If it it is merely to facilitate the performance of duties which can more conveniently be performed by local officials, I think there is a good deal to be said for such a Clause.
§ Mr. INSKIPMy right hon. Friend indicates that that is the object of the Clause. If so, I hope words will be inserted subsequently, making it plain that these arrangements are revocable at the direction of the Government Department of the United Kingdom which makes the arrangements from time to time, and that the officers of the Council and of the two Governments of Northern and Southern Ireland are merely Ministers who are carrying out the directions and behests of the Department in this country concerned.
§ Mr. FISHERI am grateful to the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Inskip) for his observations, which, have, I think, a real relevance to this Clause, and we shall be very glad to consider what words can be put in to safeguard the points he has raised.
§ Sir J. BUTCHERThe speech of the President of the Board of Education raises what I think is a serious question, namely, the responsibility of the Council of Ireland. He pointed to the proviso to this Clause, and said that in certain cases the Council would be responsible. I can quite understand that a Department of either the Southern or Northern Parliament in Ireland would be responsible to their own Parliament, but what 118 I should like to know is who will be responsible for the actions of the Council. Supposing, in the exercise of their powers under this Clause, they do something which is disapproved of and is challenged, who is to answer for them, and who is responsible for them? Will there be anyone in this House who will be responsible, or will there be anyone in either the Northern or Southern Parliament in Ireland who will be responsible for them?
§ Mr. MURRAY MACDONALDSurely the action of the Council can never be challenged under this Clause. The object of the Clause is simply to facilitate arrangements between Departments. It is entirely a matter of convenience that the Department responsible to the United Kingdom Parliament should be able to make arrangements for the carrying out of some of its duties by the Department responsible either to the Southern Parliament or to the Northern Parliament in Ireland. It is a common enough arrangement here to-day in England, Scotland, and Ireland. As to the point whether any such arrangement would be revocable, how is it possible to explain the final proviso of the Clause unless it is quite clear that it is revocable? The Department that makes the arrangement is to continue to be responsible, even although it gets another Department to act for it. It is not the Department with which it makes the arrangement that is to be responsible, but the Department that makes the arrangement, and that is to say that it can withdraw the arrangement at any moment it chooses. I do not know about the law in England, but I do know about the law in Scotland, and there are provisions relating to the feeding of children in schools for which the Education Department in Scotland is responsible, but it hands over the charge to one of the Local Authorities. It supervises the whole thing and continues to be responsible, but it is another Department that is actually carrying out the duties. This Clause, I take it, is merely giving powers to a Department of the United Kingdom to make an arrangement with a Department of the Parliament of Northern Ireland or Southern Ireland to carry out duties that rest primarily on a United Kingdom Department, and in the same way the Clause gives the power to the two Irish Parliaments to entrust certain of their duties 119 to a Department responsible to the United Kingdom Parliament, and I submit that the Clause ought to be passed as it is, and that it is quite clear that it is a revocable power.
Dr. MURRAYTo a dull-minded person like myself, the only thing I can gather from the discussion is that such a Clause is not necessary. We have an elastic British Constitution, and why lay down rules and regulations for every detail of government in the case of Ireland? We have the power in this United Kingdom between England and Scotland; in educational matters I understand the Scottish Department acts sometimes for the English Department, and vice versa, and why put a provision of this sort in the Bill stereotyping certain rules and regulations? The Government could withdraw this Clause without doing any damage at all to the Bill.
§ Sir J. BUTCHERWill the right hon. Gentleman answer my question as to the responsibility for the acts of the Council of Ireland?
§ Mr. FISHERI gather that the hon. Baronet is anxious about the responsibility of the Council of Ireland. Hs asks in effect to whom are the members of the Council responsible, and what check have the Parliaments in Ireland over the misuse of the functions delegated to the Council of Ireland. I think I can put my answer in two propositions. In the first place, the Council of Ireland is composed of representatives elected in equal numbers from the North and the South of Ireland. In the second place, if the hon. Baronet will refer to Clause 10, Subsection (6), he will see that the Northern and Southern Parliaments have the power of revoking any power or function delegated to the Council of Ireland. If, therefore, the Northern or Southern Parliaments are discontented with the use of any power delegated to the Council of Ireland, it is within their province to revoke that power, and, consequently, they have a very considerable hold upon the Council of Ireland.
§ Sir J. BUTCHERIs the only check upon the action of the Council of Ireland a revocation of their power? That is a very extreme measure to adopt.
§ Mr. FISHERIt is not the only check. As I pointed out, the Council of Ireland consists of delegates of the two parts of Ireland, that in itself constitutes a security, if not a check.
§ Mr. M. MACDONALDMay I ask if the question of responsibility of the Council arises on this?
§ The CHAIRMANIt certainly does not arise on this Clause or on the Amendment.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendments made: After the word "Ireland" ["or Northern Ireland for the exercise"] insert the words "or by the Council of Ireland."
§ After the word "Department" ["that Department of any powers or duties of that Department by officers"] insert the words "or Council."
§ After the word "Department" ["that Department by officers of a Department of the Government of the United Kingdom"] insert the words "or Council."—[Mr. D. M. Wilson.]
§ Mr. D. M. WILSONI beg to move, after the word "Department" ["responsibility of the Department by which the arrangement is made"] to insert the words "or Council."
§ Mr. INSKIPI understand these words are not required here, because the responsibility affects the Department making the arrangements, namely, any Department of the Government of the United Kingdom.
§ Mr. MARRIOTTI, too, am entirely mystified by the proposal to insert the words in this place.
§ Mr. M. MACDONALDThe arrangement is a reciprocal arrangement, so far as I understand. In the first Amendment we inserted the words "or by officers of the Council of Ireland," and it is necessary to insert the words "or Council" in every case where, according to the Amendment paper, it is proposed to insert them. Supposing the Council has certain duties entrusted to it, and makes an arrangement with one of the Parliaments in Ireland to carry out some of its duties, the responsibility still rests primarily with the Council, and with the officers of the Council, and you insert the words "or Council" here when you say the responsibility is still to continue with the Council.
§ Mr. FISHERI am convinced by the right hon. Gentleman's argument that we do want the words here.
§ Mr. MARRIOTTIf my right hon. Friend is convinced by the argument of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, I beg him to answer this question. The proviso says
that no such arrangements shall diminish in any respect the responsibility of the Department by which the arrangement is made.Can such an arrangement be made by anyone except a Department of the Government of the United Kingdom?
§ Mr. MACDONALDIt is reciprocal.
§ Lord H. CECILI do not see why you should not also put in "Governments." If you are going to safeguard the responsibilities of everyone, you ought to safeguard the Governments of the two Irish Parliaments and the United Kingdom. All these bodies have Departments under them. Either you ought not to put in "or Council" or you ought to put in a great deal more.
§ Sir H. CRAIKA Department of the Government of the United Kingdom, for its own convenience, might hand over the performance of its duties to a Department acting under the control of the Southern Parliament or the Northern Parliament or the Council of Ireland. On the other hand, any Department under the Parliament of Southern Ireland, or the Parliament of Northern Ireland, or the Council, might arrange for the performance of its duties to be handed over to a Department of the Government of the United Kingdom. Surely, all we need to mention is the Department, and not either the Government or the Council, but if you do insert the Council, which I think is perfectly unnecessary, then I think you must insert the Governments.
§ Mr. MACDONALDIf you know there are to be Departments under the Council, it is quite unnecessary to insert the word "Council," but that is not stated. In that case, the first Amendment ought not to stand exactly as it stands, because the words "or by officers of the Council of Ireland" imply that the Council of Ireland employs its own officers to carry out its own duties without the interven- 122 tion of Departments. It is because those words are inserted in the first Amendment that it is necessary to insert this Amendment. If it had simply been "or Department of the Council," then it would have been unnecessary to insert the words "or Council" by this Amendment.
§ Major O'NEILLIn view of the great divergence of opinion about this small point, I would suggest that the Government should not press this Amendment, but should go into the whole matter again with the draftsman, and find out really what is meant, and then bring it up on Report. The President of the Board of Education was first of all absolutely convinced by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol (Mr. Inskip) that these words were not necessary, and then the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. M. Mac-Donald) convinced him, even more than my hon. Friend, that they are necessary, and I really doubt if there is any Member of the Committee who knows exactly whether they are necessary or not. So far as I can make out, it is necessary, as my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Marriott) suggests, that, if you put in the words "or Council," you should also put in the words "or the Government of Northern or Southern Ireland." I do not see why, if you say the responsibility of the Council is in no way to be diminished, you should not say the responsibility of the Governments of Northern and Southern Ireland is not to be diminished. The discussion has been so curious that I do not know what is or what is not meant, and I think it would be much better for the Government to bring the matter up later.
Captain COOTESurely the matter is perfectly clear. There are three originating authorities, namely, the Department of the Government of the United Kingdom, the Department of the Government of Northern or Southern Ireland, and the Council. The word "Department" in the proviso, I should think, covers either the Department of the United Kingdom or the Department of the Government of Northern Ireland or the Department of the Government of Southern Ireland. Therefore, if you insert the words "or Council", they cover the three authorities, and the meaning of the Clause is perfectly clear.
§ Captain W. BENNWe have had a very interesting discussion. The Government first proposed an Amendment, then they withdrew it.
§ Mr. FISHERNo, they did not.
§ Captain BENNWell, they admitted that they had been convinced of error.
§ Mr. FISHERThey withdrew it for the moment, to consider best how to fit it in.
§ Captain BENNThat is the point. The right hon. Gentleman was convinced by the arguments against the Amendment, now he has been re-fortified, and he or his Department is persisting in the Amendment. It ought to be clear how far this Amendment carries us. The Council has had to be the nucleus Parliament for all Ireland. Therefore quite clearly if the Government, or the Council of Ireland, transfer powers to Departments, it ought to be made perfectly plain as to what exactly those powers are.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ Captain BENNThis Clause permits a Government Department in England to transfer certain of its powers to any party in Ireland. The general purpose is to transfer powers, or is the delegation of powers—
§ Mr. FISHERNo, no.
§ Captain BENNWell, I will read the Clause, and perhaps we shall understand exactly what it does—
Arrangements may be made by any Department of the Government of the United Kingdom for the exercise and performance on behalf of that Department of any powers or duties…..
§ Mr. FISHERHear, hear!
§ Captain BENNWell, I called that, in my desire to save time, delegation of powers.
……the exercise and performance on behalf of that Department of any powers or duties of that Department by officers of a Department of the Government of the United Kingdom……We have had great discussions about railway administration, and on the Motion of the hon. Gentleman opposite, the Northern and Southern Parliaments have been given powers over the two railways. 124 At the same time the Council of Ireland is a Department which deals with the railways. It is the nucleus of that great united self-governing body which the Government set up by this Bill. There still remains certain powers to the Ministry of Transport in this country. Is there any provision made here for directing the Ministry of Transport as to how it should dispose of any powers and duties in respect of transport and railways as between the Government of Northern and Southern Ireland and the Railway Department of the Council of Ireland? There seems to me likely to be a good deal of jealousy between these three bodies in the exercise of their railway powers, and it would be a sad thing if the Home Department were to take one side against the other, and so increase the friction, which, I am perfectly certain, is bound to arise in Ireland.
§ Question put, and agreed to.